Jesus

[George_Waters]

Hashi,

Let me begin by stating I agree with you. Committing an atrocity in the name of God does not make it God’s will and does not absolve those who committed the crime.

I believe what Booklover is saying is that when a Christian commits a heinous act they knowingly do so against the teachings of Jesus and His church, but it seems many atrocities committed by Muslims are done by those who believe they are doing the will of God.

I’m not saying this is the case, but it is the perception of many. My Mother-in-law is a fundamentalist Christian and believes Muslims worship a different god, etc. I have done what I can to correct her, but it is very hard to promote understanding of a religion when we are constantly bombarded by images of Muslims celebrating the deaths of innocent people. Sure, there probably is some media spin, but the sheer number of attacks on innocent people by those who claim to be Muslims makes us all very leery about the true intentions of Islam. I am afraid to say you can say they are not true Muslims (and I want to believe you), but as long as they are claiming to be we will be skeptical.

While I do not always agree with gentlemen such as yourself and jcaz, I do hope Islam as presented by you will prevail in the Muslim world and we can live in peace together.

George

 

[Booklover]

George Waters:

Hashi,

Let me begin by stating I agree with you. Committing an atrocity in the name of God does not make it God’s will and does not absolve those who committed the crime.

I believe what Booklover is saying is that when a Christian commits a heinous act they knowingly do so against the teachings of Jesus and His church, but it seems many atrocities committed by Muslims are done by those who believe they are doing the will of God.

I’m not saying this is the case, but it is the perception of many. My Mother-in-law is a fundamentalist Christian and believes Muslims worship a different god, etc. I have done what I can to correct her, but it is very hard to promote understanding of a religion when we are constantly bombarded by images of Muslims celebrating the deaths of innocent people. Sure, there probably is some media spin, but the sheer number of attacks on innocent people by those who claim to be Muslims makes us all very leery about the true intentions of Islam. I am afraid to say you can say they are not true Muslims (and I want to believe you), but as long as they are claiming to be we will be skeptical.

While I do not always agree with gentlemen such as yourself and jcaz, I do hope Islam as presented by you will prevail in the Muslim world and we can live in peace together.

George

Thanks George, for expressing it much better than I did!

Vickie

 

[Chris_LaRock]

In most of these cases, you have bloodthirsty people murdering for selfish reasons - only to justify it later by claiming to be doing God’s will.

People have been killed in the name of atheism too. Communist countries have been known, and are still known, for persecuting and even murdering people of faith. They see religious people as a threat to them, since religious people swear devotion to their diety instead of the state.

I’d suggest The Books “Jesus Freaks I”, and Jesus Freaks II" by DC Talk if you are interested in people who have died for their faith in Christ.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I got that Koran. It’s entitled “The Qur’an Translation”, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

As we’ve established earlier, the Koran depicts Jesus as a teacher and prophet. What teachings does the Koran depict him teaching, and where in the Koran can I find them mentioned?

 

[Reuben_J]

Chris LaRock:

I got that Koran. It’s entitled “The Qur’an Translation”, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

As we’ve established earlier, the Koran depicts Jesus as a teacher and prophet. What teachings does the Koran depict him teaching, and where in the Koran can I find them mentioned?

I am looking forward to response to issues in this thread. If Jesus is considered a prophet, as you mentioned even a teacher, by Islam, then why some of his teachings are not followed let alone recognised.

 

[Topher]

Edris:

I have to say that this is the first time i realize that catholics don’t consider supplication as an act of worship. And this leads me to ask: If you supplicate to the saints, confess your sins to the priests, take your scriptures from Paul, and give thanks to prophet Jesus pbuh, then what is left for God (The Father)?

What is the Catholic view of worship?

God gave us all of the above mentioned gift. And since muslims like to kill people rather than allowing for God to be the Lord of Life, then what do they leave for God?

 

[George_Waters]

Topher,

Your comments about Muslims are generalizations (which we are all guilty of from time to time, but are best avoided), but more importantly are just down right offensive to our Muslim brothers and sisters who post on this forum. Not all Muslims kill people. You know this. I understand that when discussing religion our emotions can run high, our faiths are important to us all, but we can not resort to such remarks. If you are upset, just walk away. While I disagree with Islam and at times with members of this forum such as Edris, I respect him as a person of faith who is trying to be a good God-fearing person, just like us all. I know you will probably be a bit ticked off at me for my comments, which is fine, but please know I only remind you of what I am confident you know.

Peace

George

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Reuben J:

I am looking forward to response to issues in this thread. If Jesus is considered a prophet, as you mentioned even a teacher, by Islam, then why some of his teachings are not followed let alone recognised.

Chris LaRock asked the same question at the beginning of this thread and i tried to answer it near the beginning the thread. But it is difficult to address such a question and arrive at an agreement from both sides because of the differing with have over the authenticity of the scriptures. You can quote some quotes in the Bible and ask me why Islam differs from this, and i can quote some things from the Bible and ask why christianity differs from this (as i tried to do in those posts earlier).

And the issue of authenticity really stems from the fact the New Testaments are accounts that were written decades after the death of Jesus, and none of the writters are his actual Desciples. Thus Muslims believe that although there is **some truth ** contained in the bible, more specfically speaking of the 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (prefering the earlier gospels starting from Matthew), we also believe those accounts contain errors and lack authenticity.

Not to change the direction of the thread to another discussion about the authenticity of the bible, just trying to make a point about the issue that we run into when answering this question. But again, i feel ive done my best in such circumstances in my previous answer in the thread (the 3rd and 5th post).

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Chris LaRock:

I got that Koran. It’s entitled “The Qur’an Translation”, by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

As we’ve established earlier, the Koran depicts Jesus as a teacher and prophet. What teachings does the Koran depict him teaching, and where in the Koran can I find them mentioned?

Hi Chris,

Yusuf Ali translation is the most popular. I dont really like the english style, kinda like King James bible english. If you’re used to that kind of english, you’ll like the translation. If it came with commentary, i would avoid reading his commentary. He has been critisized for alot of his commentary to the Quran due to his lack of knowledge in that particular field.

as for where Jesus is depicted in the Quran, he is mentioned in multiple chapters. The chapters hes mentioned in most are Chapter 3 (Family of Imran), Chapter 4 (the Women), Chapter 5 (the Table Spread), and Chapter 19 (Mary), and Chapter 43.

In chapter 57 of the Quran, there is a mention of Jesus and of the kind of message he came with:

Then, We sent after them, Our Messengers, and We sent 'Iesa (Jesus) * son of Maryam (Mary), and gave him the Injeel (Gospel). And We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him, compassion and mercy.

But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them, but (they sought it) only to please Allâh (God) therewith, but that they did not observe it with the right observance. So We gave those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). (Al-Hadid 57:27)

The first portion of the verse mentioning Jesus and his followers as having compassion and mercy. We believe this was one of the trademarks of Jesus, that he came to preach mildness, mercy, and compassion to the children of Israel when at that time they were far from having those characteristics in how they were dealing with one another. It is just one verse in the chapter that speaks about Jesus but i wanted to point it out because it addresses an important characteristic that Jesus possessed and preached.

 

[Faith101]

Jesus peace be upon him is a prophet and messenger, sent to the Children of Israel, with the same message every single prophet before him and the one after him came with

KNOW THAT YOUR LORD IS ONE, WORSHIP HIM

Everything that we need to live a life that is pleasing to God can be found in the Quran and sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him.

In terms of the teachings of Jesus Christ peace be upon him, than we can not be 100% sure that was is in the bible is actually from him or does anyone have the Gospel of Jesus? We believe Jesus recieved revelation called INJEEL which translates as “good news” but this revelation was not preserved nor was it meant to be.

From reading some of the Bible, i do agree with some statments attributed to Jesus, specifically those that are in line with Islamic principles. However, things like “turn the other cheek” (as explained by some of you here, that it is the opposite of taking revenge, i.e. taking justice) dont sound like prophetic statements to me. If the Christians actually followed them, they would have been extinguished by now. I believe Exoflare had posted a link to a site discussing the explation behind “turn the other cheek” and it made more sense, and was in line with Islamic principles.

In terms of things like love your neighbor, dont commit adultery and all the other basic teachings…then they can be easily found in the Quran and sunnah.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I think that the Jesus of the Koran is a Jesus created by Muslims in order to deny the true diety of Christ. The goal behind the writing of the Koran seems to be the destruction of Christianity and nothing more.

Read then New Testament and know who Jesus truly is.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Chris LaRock asked the same question at the beginning of this thread and i tried to answer it near the beginning the thread. But it is difficult to address such a question and arrive at an agreement from both sides because of the differing with have over the authenticity of the scriptures. You can quote some quotes in the Bible and ask me why Islam differs from this, and i can quote some things from the Bible and ask why christianity differs from this (as i tried to do in those posts earlier).

And the issue of authenticity really stems from the fact the New Testaments are accounts that were written decades after the death of Jesus, and none of the writters are his actual Desciples. Thus Muslims believe that although there is **some truth ** contained in the bible, more specfically speaking of the 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (prefering the earlier gospels starting from Matthew), we also believe those accounts contain errors and lack authenticity.

Not to change the direction of the thread to another discussion about the authenticity of the bible, just trying to make a point about the issue that we run into when answering this question. But again, i feel ive done my best in such circumstances in my previous answer in the thread (the 3rd and 5th post).

Hashi, your responds have been some of the most informative here and I do enjoy them even though many times I don’t agree with you.

Basically I understand the Muslims’ position that when the Bible confirms the Quran it’s authentic and when it’s not, that the parts that were corrupted. This issue will no doubt be discussed and argued at great length for the time to come. I tried to bring the discussion to something like that in the thread Jesus Desciples but it just doesn’t move.

However for discussion purpose there are still lines about Jesus’ teaching that’s not being deliberated upon satisfactorily. One example is the teaching on divorce. Edris tried to address this earlier on in this thread but this only confirm the disobedience to the teaching of Jesus when he endorsed polygamy.

There are many verses regarding the sacredness of marraige in the Bible, starting from Genesis to the Epistles. None of these confirming polygamy but just the opposite. Are the verses concerned therefore are corrupted and therefore not the teaching of Jesus?

 

[Reuben_J]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

… The first portion of the verse mentioning Jesus and his followers as having compassion and mercy. We believe this was one of the trademarks of Jesus, that he came to preach mildness, mercy, and compassion to the children of Israel when at that time they were far from having those characteristics in how they were dealing with one another. It is just one verse in the chapter that speaks about Jesus but i wanted to point it out because it addresses an important characteristic that Jesus possessed and preached.

Can you give some examples on Jesus’ teaching on compassion and mercy?

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

In terms of the teachings of Jesus Christ peace be upon him, than we can not be 100% sure that was is in the bible is actually from him or does anyone have the Gospel of Jesus? We believe Jesus recieved revelation called INJEEL which translates as “good news” but this revelation was not preserved nor was it meant to be.

Rather sad. Lots of information about Jesus and his teachings are available now for the discerning and the seekers.

Faith101:

From reading some of the Bible, i do agree with some statments attributed to Jesus, specifically those that are in line with Islamic principles. However, things like “turn the other cheek” (as explained by some of you here, that it is the opposite of taking revenge, i.e. taking justice) dont sound like prophetic statements to me. If the Christians actually followed them, they would have been extinguished by now. I believe Exoflare had posted a link to a site discussing the explation behind “turn the other cheek” and it made more sense, and was in line with Islamic principles.

I’ve highlighted a statement which I think made in haste and which you can reflect further on.

The late Pope John Paul had shown a good example by forgiving his would be assassinator. He made it a point not just by forgiving him in his heart but to meet him personally to give him his personal blessing. There was very encouraging respond by the assailant to the action of the Pope as can be judged by his desire to attend the Pope’s funeral. You may say, but, aah, he was the Pope… But you may like to know, there are lots of Christians got by this principle of turning the other cheek and find victory in their lives.

Below a short explanation as FAQ on Turning the Other Cheek.

Q: What does it mean to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39)?

A: Jesus’ complete statement is “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Of course, any striking is a painful blow, but the striking in this case is meant as a gross insult (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:20). If a right-handed person strikes someone’s right cheek, presumably it is a slap by the back of the hand. A fist striking you would be on the left cheek. So this teaching by Jesus is not about self-defense, but about an attack on your dignity.

In the eastern culture slapping someone is considered an insult of the highest order. But Jesus says that His disciples should gladly be willing to endure the insult again.

Christians are permitted to defend themselves and their families (Exodus 22:2; Numbers 1:2-3; Ecclesiastes 4:12; Luke 22:36; Acts 22:1; 25:10-11; 2 Timothy 4:16) and to use God-ordained authority to keep evil from harming them or others (Proverbs 28:8; Acts 16:37-39; 22:23-29).

However, what is forbidden is the taking of vengeance (Romans 12:17-21), bitterness (Ephesians 4:31), and retaliation (1 Peter 2:23). These are absolutely forbidden by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[Faith101]

Chris LaRock:

I think that the Jesus of the Koran is a Jesus created by Muslims in order to deny the true diety of Christ. The goal behind the writing of the Koran seems to be the destruction of Christianity and nothing more.

Read then New Testament and know who Jesus truly is.

The goal of the Quran is to bring people back to the worship of ONE God…something very similiar to the first commandement and to the message of every messenger that has walked the earth.

The goal of the Devil is to get people to worship other than God, or ascribe a partner to God. Which is what Christianity, Hinduism and many other religions do.

 

[Faith101]

Reuben J:

Rather sad. Lots of information about Jesus and his teachings are available now for the discerning and the seekers.

I’ve highlighted a statement which I think made in haste and which you can reflect further on.

The late Pope John Paul had shown a good example by forgiving his would be assassinator. He made it a point not just by forgiving him in his heart but to meet him personally to give him his personal blessing. There was very encouraging respond by the assailant to the action of the Pope as can be judged by his desire to attend the Pope’s funeral. You may say, but, aah, he was the Pope… But you may like to know, there are lots of Christians got by this principle of turning the other cheek and find victory in their lives.

Below a short explanation as FAQ on Turning the Other Cheek.

Q: What does it mean to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39)?

A: Jesus’ complete statement is “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” Of course, any striking is a painful blow, but the striking in this case is meant as a gross insult (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:20). If a right-handed person strikes someone’s right cheek, presumably it is a slap by the back of the hand. A fist striking you would be on the left cheek. So this teaching by Jesus is not about self-defense, but about an attack on your dignity.

In the eastern culture slapping someone is considered an insult of the highest order. But Jesus says that His disciples should gladly be willing to endure the insult again.

Christians are permitted to defend themselves and their families (Exodus 22:2; Numbers 1:2-3; Ecclesiastes 4:12; Luke 22:36; Acts 22:1; 25:10-11; 2 Timothy 4:16) and to use God-ordained authority to keep evil from harming them or others (Proverbs 28:8; Acts 16:37-39; 22:23-29).

However, what is forbidden is the taking of vengeance (Romans 12:17-21), bitterness (Ephesians 4:31), and retaliation (1 Peter 2:23). These are absolutely forbidden by Jesus and the apostles.

Did you read the very next sentence to the one you highlighted in red?