Jesus's claims to divinity?

[heiscominginthe]

guanophore;5390133]Actually, no, heis. Catholics are not concerned as you are about “adding to the Word of God”. Catholics know that the entire NT was “added” by the Church. There is nothing in it that does not reflect Catholic Teaching, nor is there anything that is contradictory to Catholic Teaching. This is because the NT and the Teaching of the Apostles contained in the Catholic Church both come from the same Source. Therefore, for us, there is not “instead” involved. The Bible reflects the teaching of the Apostles.

Do you truly believe it was the church or the head of the church that promoted the gospel?

The catholic church did not create the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ himself sacrificed his life and it was his sacrifice that gives us the gospel of Jesus Christ

I think it is a dangerous thing to not be concerned with adding to the Word of God. Jesus gave a stern warning to those who add or take from the bible.

As for teachings of the CC that are contrary to the Word of God, it is easy to just say there is none that is contrary, but it is a lot harder to prove it.

No, my point is that the Catholic Church has preserved these prayers, and that is how we know what they are. Those such as yourself that have become separated from the Apostolic Succession do not have this part of the Revelation of God to the Church. Your guesses are good ones, though.

What you call guesses I call the unction of the Holy Spirit. As for your prayers, what good is a prayer that is said over and over and over again if the person who does the praying is not sincere in the heart?

Th

at was the Scripture I quoted:

Acts 2:42
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

These were the first believers, all Catholic, all devoted to the teaching of the Apostles, and the prayers that were used by them. These prayers and teachings have not changed from that day, until this.

No, these were the first saints who made up the church.

Yes, I read some drivel about how the destroyed sins are still clinging to the person and then are washed away in baptism, or some such like that. However, you cling to baptism having no power to wash anything. Just another inconsistency in your theology.

If you believe that water and not blood is what destroys sin, I pray the Lord have mercy on your soul.

Be

gotten, not made. One in being with the Father.

You have a new meaning for the word begotten.

Are you trying to say that Jesus is created of the Father?

I am saying Jesus was born/begotten of the Father.

What you call here heresies brought about much persecution and death by your religion. And I believe we may very well see it once again in these end of times.

 

[heiscominginthe]

guanophore;5390137]The scripture cannot be “infallible”, heis, because it cannot take responsibilty for it’s actions, which is one of the elements of fallible action. The scripture is inerrant, and inspired. Infallibility is a quality that can only belong to humans.

I believe it is the lie of the devil that move men to believe it is impossible for God to get his Word written perfectly by the unction of the Holy Spirit through men.

I understand that is what you are saying, but it is an erroneous statement. Unity was preserved by adherance to the Teaching of the Apostles. This was necessary because there was no NT for almost 400 years. The Church was not created out of the Scriptures, as many have done today, but out of the Revelation of God to the Apostles.

That’s funny. In my NT it tells of the gospel being published throughout the regions.

What is written cannot be properly understood when it is separated from the Teaching of the Apostles, to which the Catholic Church was devoted from the day of Pentecost. Efforts to create Church out of the Bible as is common today inevitably results in error.

It is men who error, not the Word of God. Truth is the same today as it was yesterday and will be forever.

When you gather your courage, and begin to study the history of the church, you will find that you have become the unwitting victim of this yourself. I believe that you are devoted to your faith, and do not realize that your theology is founded upon errors that occurred centuries ago.

It is the study of the history of the CC that is shocking, disturbing. For a gospel that claims it needs to force itself on humanity by using torture and death is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To kill in the name of Jesus is as far from the teachings of Jesus as humanly possible.

 

[MDK]

I believe it is the lie of the devil that move men to believe it is impossible for God to get his Word written perfectly by the unction of the Holy Spirit through men.

This is a false focus only about a hypothetical case. What we’re interested in and seek is what God has actually done, and told us to do. This you ignore and distort. God told you to listen to those He sent… and you reject this, and therefore reject Christ. God built His Church to teach the revealed truth about Him and minister His Seven Sacraments… these you reject, and therefore reject Christ.

That’s funny. In my NT it tells of the gospel being published throughout the regions.

You do not know where the Gospel came from, nor what it means. You only know the English words on the page, which simply means you’re not illiterate. While not illiterate, you are very ignorant of the meaning of Scriptures… the Scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit authored by Catholic men, and assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church (also protected by the Holy Spirit). To seek to contradict this is ignorant of history and ignorant of what God has done.

It is men who error, not the Word of God. Truth is the same today as it was yesterday and will be forever.

Yes, and you like to take full advantage of that first phrase…

To say that God said so and so, when He did not, is to bear false witness against God. Please stop bearing false witness against God!

It is the study of the history of the CC that is shocking, disturbing. For a gospel that claims it needs to force itself on humanity by using torture and death is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To kill in the name of Jesus is as far from the teachings of Jesus as humanly possible.

This is born simply of prejudice and ignorance. The Church has never once been in error in faith and morals. To argue otherwise would be to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Created man has been in error since just after the start… where’s the news there?

 

[heiscominginthe]

=MDK;5533932]This is a false focus only about a hypothetical case. What we’re interested in and seek is what God has actually done, and told us to do. This you ignore and distort. God told you to listen to those He sent… and you reject this, and therefore reject Christ. God built His Church to teach the revealed truth about Him and minister His Seven Sacraments… these you reject, and therefore reject Christ.

Are you telling me that all who are not of the CC are going to hell?

You do not know where the Gospel came from, nor what it means. You only know the English words on the page, which simply means you’re not illiterate. While not illiterate, you are very ignorant of the meaning of Scriptures… the Scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit authored by Catholic men, and assembled into the Bible by the Catholic Church (also protected by the Holy Spirit). To seek to contradict this is ignorant of history and ignorant of what God has done.

Now this is a brave statement from you. You do not have a clue as to my knowledge of history. For instance, where does the Word emporuspapalis come from. I am not sure of the spelling. Also, if you may, what does it mean?

Yes, and you like to take full advantage of that first phrase…

To say that God said so and so, when He did not, is to bear false witness against God. Please stop bearing false witness against God!

You argue against what is written, saying your interpretation supercedes the writtten Word. I will ask the Lord to forgive you for the above. I suggest you be more careful in your wording.

This is born simply of prejudice and ignorance. The Church has never once been in error in faith and morals. To argue otherwise would be to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Created man has been in error since just after the start… where’s the news there?

I could care less about the CC. What I care about is the souls of men. For it is the will of the Father, that all men be saved, born again. He lives in me and his will is my will.

As for the church being in err, Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. He is perfect, and his bride is perfect.

And what makes the bride perfect? The forgiveness of our Lord for our sins. His loving grace.

 

[PJM]

=sophie1;5002862]My husband and I have an acquaintance who is a fallen-away Catholic. He recently claimed that “Jesus never said he was God”. We’re sure this is not true, but would appreciate some citations…

Luke Chapter 1:*26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus .He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. *

*John 10: 28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” *

Acts 26: 14 “*** And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.”***

John 14: 11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.”

There are numerous biblical proofs but if these don’t convience him, only prayer and sacrifice will work:shrug:

Love and prayers

 

[MDK]

Are you telling me that all who are not of the CC are going to hell?

Only those ignorant of God’s teachings would interpret it that way. Are you sticking with that your interpretation of what was written?

Now this is a brave statement from you. You do not have a clue as to my knowledge of history. For instance, where does the Word emporuspapalis come from. I am not sure of the spelling. Also, if you may, what does it mean?

The truth is bold indeed. What you say bears witness to either your wisdom or your ignoranc. Sadly for you, it is the latter.

You argue against what is written, saying your interpretation supercedes the writtten Word. I will ask the Lord to forgive you for the above.

Only a very ignorant person would interpret what I wrote this way. Do you intend to remain with this interpretation? I believe everything in the Scriptures, but only as authentically taught. You, on the opposite side read the English words and think you know more than God.

You can ask Him to forgive me, but it would have nothing at all to do with what you’ve misinterpreted about me. I was at God’s Sacrament of Reconciliation a couple of weeks ago, and so there’s really no much reason but since I am less than perfect, I appreciate God forgiving my imperfections. Unlike you, though, I don’t oppose His message and twist and distort it. Do you think to pray for yourself for these grave offensese against God?

I suggest you be more careful in your wording.

I suggest that I continue to tell the truth, whether you are offended by or intimidated by the truth or not.

I could care less about the CC. What I care about is the souls of men. For it is the will of the Father, that all men be saved, born again. He lives in me and his will is my will.

God built the Catholic Church because He was concerned with our sould. You reject it. That is why you’re in such patehetic condition in regard to knowing the truth revealed by God. You only know the English words from the Scriptures, but have no idea what they actually teach.

As for the church being in err, Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. He is perfect, and his bride is perfect.

Yes, and His Bride is the Catholic Church, so one would ask why do you reject the Bride of Christ: Only those igorant of Christ will make this mistake.

And what makes the bride perfect? The forgiveness of our Lord for our sins. His loving grace.

No. What makes His Bride spotless is never being in error in faith and morals. The Catholic Church has never once taught error in faith and morals. The adherents to God’s Church do need forgiveness. God established this through His priests who act in the person of Christ.

 

[Convert66]

Heis . . .

I understand that you are engaged at the moment with others, I just wanted to comment on something you wrote above, and if you wish to, please reply with your thoughts.

As for your prayers, what good is a prayer that is said over and over and over again if the person who does the praying is not sincere in the heart? [emphasis mine]

Have you not read in the Scriptures that " the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things; who could know it?" In one of his finest works, CS Lewis’ Chief tempter “Screwtape” describes to his pupil that the devils never tempt so successfully as when they snare a Christian in temptation at their own altars. In focusing on our own sincerity, we are focusing on ourselves. We are not God.

The prayers of the Church function much like the Creeds. They focus the heart and mind on Truth. The Truth is not discovered through sincerity of heart, but the sincerity of the heart is revealed by Truth.

The devotion to the Rosary, for instance, focuses the heart and mind on successive statements that are Truth. It is, at its heart, an exercise in humility and praise and intercession. Humility, because the themes run through every prayer of the Rosary starting with the Creed. It is a statement of orthodox faith. The Our Father, as St. Thomas observed, is the perfect prayer (which should be expected owing to its Divine Author) because it not only tells us what things we should rightly desire, but it tells us in what order we should desire them. Read the prayer again and see if you would not agree. Because of this it is an exercise in humility, in ordering one’s heart, mind, body and soul towards Truth instead of one’s self.

The Hail Mary consists of scripture quotations and a petition for the Holy Mother of God to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.” This is not the acknowledgement of the self, this is the acknowledgement of Truth. Woven into and through these prayers are, “Glory Be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end, Amen.” The Fatima Prayer— “O, my Jesus, forgive us our sins; save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who most need they mercy.”

What is objectionable about that?

Jesus’ condemnation of “vain repetitions” can not be compared to the prayers of the Church (which His Spirit authored). The pagan practice was to chant to the gods, repeating the sacred name until an omen, action or vision was received (much like the espisode with Elijah and the prophets of Ba’al). Christian meditation is not like that at all. In the pagan practice one seeks to empty the mind, The Christian seeks to fill the mind and soul with Truth.

So the prayers of the Church (over and over again) are edifying to our souls because they anchor our hearts to the Truth. We submit to their wisdom, and not our own. They humble us. In their light the Truth reveals our true motives, just like the Scriptures, and our sincerity of heart is challenged again and again. Our will is engaged in the crucifixion of our own desires for experience, or consolation and this places us on much firmer ground than an addiction to emotive heart prayers, experiences and our own hearts sincerity (remeber, the heart is deceifully wicked above all things; who could know it?). We are willing to pray not for our comfort, but because we believe. We seek the Giver and not His gifts. It is easy to be sincere when we feel like God loves us and washes us with His gifts. It is hard to keep faith when God is not perceived and prayers feel dry and distant; but faith in good feelings is not faith in God. The prayers teach us this lesson and hammer it home by the sheer force of their Truth and their insistence, over and over and over again.

All my best . . .

 

[heiscominginthe]

Re: Jesus’s claims to divinity?

---

Quote:
=sophie1;5002862]My husband and I have an acquaintance who is a fallen-away Catholic. He recently claimed that “Jesus never said he was God”. We’re sure this is not true, but would appreciate some citations…

Many have difficulty understanding that Jesus is God,is of the Father, but is and is not the Father.

In Hebrews 1, the Father refers to the Son as God. Who are we to question that.

The Father begat his Son the Word, in the beginning, even before the creation of the heavens and earth.The Father begat the Son a life unto himself. (John 5:26) The Father gave his Son the fullness of his Holy Spirit, without measure. The will of the Son was only that of his Father. So it is not robbery to consider the Son God, for he is the perfect will of his Father.

So what is it that makes it okay to call Jesus God, to call Jesus Father. The first and foremost is he was begotten of the father, and is the expressed image of the Father. The second thing is he was filled with the Holy Spirit of his Father without measure. He was given the fullness of the Godhead, being filled completely with the Father, the Holy Spirit.

Yet, there will come a time when the Son will relinquish the authority of the Godhead back unto the Father. For there is only one God. 1Cor. 15:24-28

So in short, the Father has authorized his Son who is the expressed image of the Father to do his will over all of creation. All things were created by the Son and through the Son by the will of his Father though the unction of his Holy Spirit.

For no man cometh unto the Father, but through the Son.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Only those ignorant of God’s teachings would interpret it that way. Are you sticking with that your interpretation of what was written?

You should be a politician with the way you dance around questions. A simple yes or no is all that I asked for.

The truth is bold indeed. What you say bears witness to either your wisdom or your ignoranc. Sadly for you, it is the latter.

 

[guanophore]

Are you telling me that all who are not of the CC are going to hell?

Jesus only founded one Church, heis. It is His Body. All those who are in Christ are members of His One Body, the Church. Since there is no salvation outside of Christ, and all who are saved are members of His Church, there is no salvation outside the Church.

Now this is a brave statement from you. You do not have a clue as to my knowledge of history. For instance, where does the Word emporuspapalis come from. I am not sure of the spelling. Also, if you may, what does it mean?

It is not appropriate to derail the thread with such questions, heis. If you want to discuss it, then I recommend you start a new thread. The Traditional Catholicism area might be more appropriate than the Apologetics, though. Since it pertains to the early history of the Church, the Sacred Scripture section is not quite relevant. What we are talking abou there is Jesus’ claims to divinity.

Actually, we do have some clues to your knowledge of history. Your posts have made it clear that you are indoctrinated with anti-Catholic rhetoric, and have not read the early fathers of the Church.

You argue against what is written, saying your interpretation supercedes the writtten Word. I will ask the Lord to forgive you for the above. I suggest you be more careful in your wording.

It is interesting that you can recognize that others interpret what they read, but that you cannot see yourself doing the same thing!

 I could care less about the CC. What I care about is the souls of men. For it is the will of the Father, that all men be saved, born again. He lives in me and his will is my will.

If you “could care less about he CC” then why are you on a Catholic forum? Your statement seems to indicate that you are here to evangelize Catholics, which is against the forum rules. If you don’t care about the CC, then I suggest you consider starting your own forum, where you can invite the souls you believe are “lost”.

 And what makes the bride perfect? The forgiveness of our Lord for our sins. His loving grace.

This is true, but that is not all. It is that He is the head of the Church, and the church has vor her soul the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements that make her infallible.

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying the CC has never doing things that can be called sin in the eyes of God?

Yes. However, that is not the topic of the thread. You have stated that what the Apostles taught is not correct, and that Jesus is, in fact, a created being. It sounds like you do still believe He is “divine”, though. It does not seem that you believe the HS is a person, which is problematic on the topic of Jesus’ divinity. One of the main testimonies of the divinity of Christ is the witness of the HS. But, if the HS is not a Person, then His witness does not “count”.

 

[SimonArizona]

I think I can prove it because

Christ is not dolous by nature.

The angels are syndolous “fellow servants” of God alongside Christians. (Rev. 19:10; 22:19.) Christ Jesus who “huparcho en morphe Theos” or “existing in the form of God”……Kenoo heautou “emptied Himself” and took upon the form of a servant: “lambano morphe dolous.” Christ Jesus emptied Himself of “the glory I had with You [God] before the world was.” The text does not say Christ Jesus who existing in the form of a dolous (servant), no He “took upon” “lambano” the form of a servant. All creatures -including angels- under God are dolous (servants), but Christ did not exist in the form of dolous, no he existed in the form of Theos.

 

[MDK]

You should be a politician with the way you dance around questions. A simple yes or no is all that I asked for.

Since I don’t take commands from you, but do better things, I exercised my God-given freedom of will to provide a much better answer than yes or no. If you’re not able to understand what I said, I’ll explain it to you. What I wrote was indeed very, very clear. It also explained why you had previously misinterpreted.

I suggest you rethink the above statement. For if what I posted is of God, then you don’t call me ignorant, but he who has sent me.

What you posted was not of God. You are indeed ignorant of Christ in this manner.

It is easy to make this kind of statement, but the proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is the Word of God.

The Cathoic Church teaches the word of God without error. I listen to the Catholic Church’s teachings and therefore have the truth without error. You reject the Catholic Church, and have much error.

How about showing me this Sacrament of Reconciliation in scripture.

Sure, in John 20:23 specifically. The two preceeding verses are provided for a little context:

“21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

An explanation of verse 23 is: See here the commission, stamped by the broad seal of heaven, by virtue of which the pastors of Christ’s church absolve repenting sinners upon their confession.

Offending me is not the problem. I ask the Lord to forgive you for you know not what you do. So offending me is in vain. Yet, to offend he who is in me, for he who is in me is greater then he who is in the world, can bring consequenses to the offender.

If you are offended by the truth, then it’s a personal issue. From what you’ve said, it’s a little difficult to believe that the Holy Spirit is really in you, because you deny Christ’s one Church and you promote a different message than the Apostles did and have passed down.

The Church started when Jesus died, and was resurrected. He is the head of the Church. He filled his apostles with the Holy Spirit, and they went throughout the regions preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when people would get saved in a perticular town, city, that group of people would be called the Church of the city the believers resided in.

Pretty close, although the Church began when water and blood issued forth from Christ’s side on the Cross.

As for the rest, congratulatios on writing correctly for a change. Let’s stop to celebrate that!

I must add that all these people who beleived and were Baptized, were now in God’s Church, the Catholic Church.

As for the souls of men, regardless of what you believe, it is written, a man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. I know what this means for it happened to me some 36 years ago. And what occured in my heart, my life is just as scriptures describe it.

See, here you go off track again with a false accusation, and the false understanding of Christ.

First I completely believe we must be born again. Christ meant that it is through Baptism by water and the Spirit. This is how we come into His Church. All Salvation is related to Baptism and the Eucharist (which apparently you don’t receive).

Do you mind sharing with me your born again experience?

Yes, I was about a month old, and I was Baptized by water and the Spirit. Later, I was confirmed by one of the people sent by God, a Bishop of the Catholic Church who is an organic successor to the Apostles. In Confirmation, we receive the Holy Spirit in a greater way.

REMEMBER these words when you are kneeling before God Almighty on the day of judgement. The bride is not the CC. The bride is the Christian Church.

How ignorant and arrogant of you to assume otherwise.

Wow, this is a gutsy statement. For all men are sinners. What makes us free from sin is God’s free gift of grace. It is nothing we have done what so ever. We come to be blameless through the blood of the lamb.

Well, you are close there, but still a little ignorant of Christ. We are saved by God’s gift of grace, by faith working in love. Christ clearly told us we must do things, else He will claim not to know us.

It is by Jesus death on the cross. God’s chosen people apply the merits of His death on the cross to our lives in our time when worthily receiving the Eucharist. It’s just like Christ said, “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.” So, receiving Christ in the Eucharist inside His one Church brings life to us, and we’ll be raised on the last day. Why do you reject this?

Are you saying the CC has never doing things that can be called sin in the eyes of God?

Yes, I am. The Catholic Church is the spotless Bride of Christ. It would be ignorant of you to assume that I’m talking about the adherents to Catholicism. Even the Pope must go to confession.

 

[MDK]

Yes. However, that is not the topic of the thread. You have stated that what the Apostles taught is not correct, and that Jesus is, in fact, a created being. It sounds like you do still believe He is “divine”, though. It does not seem that you believe the HS is a person, which is problematic on the topic of Jesus’ divinity. One of the main testimonies of the divinity of Christ is the witness of the HS. But, if the HS is not a Person, then His witness does not “count”.

Yes, it is sadly more than problematic. One cannot be considered Christian who does not believe Jesus is God, begotten of the Father outside of time, an eternal uncreated Divine Being, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Mormons believe Christ was created, but elevated to the status of Divine Being. They would also have a problem with Apostolic teaching handed down. Mormons are not Christian.

Anyone who believes what the Apostles taught is wrong, therefore believes what Christ taught is wrong, because it’s the same thing. This person has created their own religion, and it’s not even a generic Christian religion.

 

[heiscominginthe]

guanophore;5548690]Jesus only founded one Church, heis. It is His Body. All those who are in Christ are members of His One Body, the Church. Since there is no salvation outside of Christ, and all who are saved are members of His Church, there is no salvation outside the Church.

Do you not realize that it takes salvation firstly, to be part of the church?

It is not appropriate to derail the thread with such questions, heis. If you want to discuss it, then I recommend you start a new thread. The Traditional Catholicism area might be more appropriate than the Apologetics, though. Since it pertains to the early history of the Church, the Sacred Scripture section is not quite relevant. What we are talking abou there is Jesus’ claims to divinity.

A man either believes Jesus is of God, is God or he is of the spirit of the antichrist.

Actually, we do have some clues to your knowledge of history. Your posts have made it clear that you are indoctrinated with anti-Catholic rhetoric, and have not read the early fathers of the Church.

I accept the teaching of the apostles, but as far as what you call the early church fathers, I will make my decision on if what they wrote was contrary or aligned with the Word of God.

As for being indoctrinated to anticatholic, that is silly. I am indoctrinated in the Word of God and am against all doctrines of men that add or take from the Word of God. You speculate that I have not read writings of the early church. You could not be more wrong.

As for the CC being infallible, that is a bold statement considering her history. Do you not know that even in the days of the apostles the falling away began spoken of in scripture?

It is interesting that you can recognize that others interpret what they read, but that you cannot see yourself doing the same thing!

When most cannot discern when and when not to view scripture as literal, it reveals just how far men have moved from the Word of God. There are so called believers who claim the creation story, Noah’s flood, David and Goliath, Jonah, and Lot as symbolic, not literal events that occurred.

If you “could care less about he CC” then why are you on a Catholic forum? Your statement seems to indicate that you are here to evangelize Catholics, which is against the forum rules. If you don’t care about the CC, then I suggest you consider starting your own forum, where you can invite the souls you believe are “lost”.

I was invited here by a catholic who has read my writings on another site on the internet. This person seen the truth in what I wrote. He was of that spirit of truth known as the Holy Spirit and I came here not because I wanted to, but because the Lord wanted me to.

It is time to put away the catholic, the methodist, the presbyterian titles and stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no denominations in the kingdom of God.

This is true, but that is not all. It is that He is the head of the Church, and the church has vor her soul the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements that make her infallible.

Do you even know which pope started the doctrine of infallibliity? I do.

 

[heiscominginthe]

MDK;5536758]Only those ignorant of God’s teachings would interpret it that way. Are you sticking with that your interpretation of what was written?

I stand on the gospel alone, not the interpretations or traditions that you believe supercede the Word of God.

The truth is bold indeed. What you say bears witness to either your wisdom or your ignoranc. Sadly for you, it is the latter.

If you were of that truth known as the Holy Spirit, we would not be having this conversation.

Only a very ignorant person would interpret what I wrote this way. Do you intend to remain with this interpretation? I believe everything in the Scriptures, but only as authentically taught. You, on the opposite side read the English words and think you know more than God.

So if what was authentically taught is contrary to the Word of God, you will stand by it? In other words, if what was taught changes scripture, you stand by it?

You can ask Him to forgive me, but it would have nothing at all to do with what you’ve misinterpreted about me. I was at God’s Sacrament of Reconciliation a couple of weeks ago, and so there’s really no much reason but since I am less than perfect, I appreciate God forgiving my imperfections. Unlike you, though, I don’t oppose His message and twist and distort it. Do you think to pray for yourself for these grave offensese against God?

The only acceptable offering is an offering of righteousness which comes from a born again believer who has Christ working through him.

I suggest that I continue to tell the truth, whether you are offended by or intimidated by the truth or not.

Truth in scripture and your perception of truth is not the same.

God built the Catholic Church because He was concerned with our sould. You reject it. That is why you’re in such patehetic condition in regard to knowing the truth revealed by God. You only know the English words from the Scriptures, but have no idea what they actually teach.

GOD BUILT THE CHURCH, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The CC tried to extinquish the church from existance. READ YOUR OWN HISTORY.

Yes, and His Bride is the Catholic Church, so one would ask why do you reject the Bride of Christ: Only those igorant of Christ will make this mistake.

Who is the head of the church on earth, Jesus or the Pope?

No. What makes His Bride spotless is never being in error in faith and morals. The Catholic Church has never once taught error in faith and morals. The adherents to God’s Church do need forgiveness. God established this through His priests who act in the person of Christ.

You err again. To say the bride is made spotless is earned is sin in itself. For only the cleansing blood of the lamb makes the bride spotless. And as long as the church is on earth, it is made of men in constant need of forgiveness. There is not one man who can live a life without sin. Only Jesus was able to do that.

 

[MDK]

First, let me say that if you really don’t believe that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, uncreated and Eternal God…, then you are not a Christian.

I stand on the gospel alone, not the interpretations or traditions that you believe supercede the Word of God.

No, you stand only on your private interpretations of God’s written word in ways that authentic 2,000 year old Christianity does not teach. In doing this, you bear false witness to God.

You bear false witness to us Catholics as well, by claiming that our Godly Tradition supercedes God’s word. I have to laugh it’s so ridiculous. Are you really this ignorant to claim this and bear false witness? The Godly Traditions are God’s word. They help one to understand God’s written word. Neither supercedes the other. How can they? They’re both God’s word. Did you miss that in the Bible?

If you were of that truth known as the Holy Spirit, we would not be having this conversation.

It is exactly because I am of the truth revealed by the Holy Spirit that I maintain what I do. It is clear that you are not of the Holy Spirit, but contradict the Holy Spirit.

So if what was authentically taught is contrary to the Word of God, you will stand by it? In other words, if what was taught changes scripture, you stand by it?

This is sadly ignorant and actually lacks any intelligence whatsoever.

The teachings are authentic because they teach the word of God without error.

The problem is that you arrogantly believe you know more than what God has actually taught, and therefore can’t believe the truth.

The only acceptable offering is an offering of righteousness which comes from a born again believer who has Christ working through him.

Nope. God institued the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Either you missed reading this, can’t understand what Christ said and did, or reject God’s teaching in favor of your own.

Truth in scripture and your perception of truth is not the same.

Once again, the Apostles would disagree with you, which means Christ disagrees with you. The teaching of the Apostles is what I have learned. You feel comfortable opposing God. No one does this because they are smart and humble. They do it out of ignorance, pride and/or arrogance.

GOD BUILT THE CHURCH, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The CC tried to extinquish the church from existance. READ YOUR OWN HISTORY.

This is really ignorant of history and of what Christ has done.

The Church Christ built is the Catholic Church. It has Peter as visible head, and Christ as Head. The Church is the Bride of Christ, His Body. The Catholic Church was born at Calvary, when water and blood issued forth from Christ’s side as He hung on the cross and was pierced with a spear.

Who is the head of the church on earth, Jesus or the Pope?

Christ is the ultimate Head of His Church in Heaven, in Purgatory, and on Earth. The holder of the office of Peter is the visible head of the Church on Earth, the Prime Minister for the King.

You err again. To say the bride is made spotless is earned is sin in itself. For only the cleansing blood of the lamb makes the bride spotless. And as long as the church is on earth, it is made of men in constant need of forgiveness. There is not one man who can live a life without sin. Only Jesus was able to do that.

Nope, haven’t erred in telling you anything yet. Your ignorance keeps you from even recognizing truth when shown to you. Maybe I’ll throw an error into the conversations to see if you can even tell the difference. Come to think of it, you have been wrong consistently because you don’t understand God, so you’ll probably agree with me if I put an error out there for you. You simply understand what you want about God in the way you want that suits you. This is undisciplined and errant in mind and spirit.

You are very ignorant when talking about the Bride. The Church has never erred in teaching faith and morals. The adherents need forgiveness. The first is Baptism, then for sins after Baptism, we have God’s Sacrament of Reconciliation. We also have the incomparable Eucharist, where God comes to us Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Have you not read that if you don’t eat the flesh of the Son of Man, you have no life in you? Well, do you eat the flesh of the Son of Man? Keep in mind that you can’t do this without a Sacramental Priesthood, such as that found in God’s one Church, the Catholic Church.

 

[MDK]

Do you not realize that it takes salvation firstly, to be part of the church?

This is really ignorant of Christ. The Church is were Christ’s merits of His death on the cross are applied to our lives in our time. It is really wrong to say you are saved before you enter the Church. Christ never taught this, but apparently you don’t care what Christ really teaches… you seem to know better than Christ what He taught.

A man either believes Jesus is of God, is God or he is of the spirit of the antichrist.

Which do you believe?

I accept the teaching of the apostles, but as far as what you call the early church fathers, I will make my decision on if what they wrote was contrary or aligned with the Word of God.

Either you are ignorant of the Apostolic teaching, or you are bearing false witness once again. Are you like the politician who said he was for it before he was against it?

As for being indoctrinated to anticatholic, that is silly. I am indoctrinated in the Word of God and am against all doctrines of men that add or take from the Word of God. You speculate that I have not read writings of the early church. You could not be more wrong.

Indoctrinated in the word of God? Not even close!

Indoctrinated in your own word. Absolutely!

Why is this? Because you know the words in English, but you have no earthly idea what they really teach.

As for the CC being infallible, that is a bold statement considering her history. Do you not know that even in the days of the apostles the falling away began spoken of in scripture?

You are ignorant of Scriptures here too, and what it means to be infallible. You’ve been told before, so please go research and be honest about the definitions here.

When most cannot discern when and when not to view scripture as literal, it reveals just how far men have moved from the Word of God. There are so called believers who claim the creation story, Noah’s flood, David and Goliath, Jonah, and Lot as symbolic, not literal events that occurred.

Are you arrogantly writing your autobiography here? Because you’ve described yourself perfectly as one who cannot discern what Scriptures actually teach.

I was invited here by a catholic who has read my writings on another site on the internet. This person seen the truth in what I wrote. He was of that spirit of truth known as the Holy Spirit and I came here not because I wanted to, but because the Lord wanted me to.

There are Catholics ignorant of the faith, because you do not promote truth, but your own versions of things which are not well associated with truth. You just happen to be hearing from a couple of Catholics who are not ignorant, and apparently you can’t handle that. Why? Because you’re deluded into thinking you know more than authentic Christianity. Please come back down to reality, where you can learn and become a person God meant you to be.

The only reason the Lord would want you here is to learn from authentic Catholicism. You seem to be ignoring His will in this manner.

It is time to put away the catholic, the methodist, the presbyterian titles and stand up for the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no denominations in the kingdom of God.

The Gospel of Christ is taught without error only in God’s one Catholic Church. It is time to get rid of the false ecclesial communities, like the one you promote.

Do you even know which pope started the doctrine of infallibliity? I do.

What you don’t know is that infallibility was present in God’s Church from the start. It is believed, and then defined as doctrine when ignoramus starts to spread heresies, a lot like you are doing.

 

[MDK]

… Who is the head of the church on earth, Jesus or the Pope?.

Did you read that Jesus said He would build His Church, and not that He would ask a man or men to build whatever they desire or prefer? Did you read that Jesus changed Simon’s name to Rock and followed by saying on this Rock, Christ would build His Church, and Christ continued by giving Rock something He gave to no other Apostle, the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, which signify authority. Christ’s Apostles knew what that meant, but the ignorant do not. Did you read that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church? Christ’s Apostles knew what that meant, but the ignorant do not.

Did Jesus just do things that were on a whim, or inconsequential? No, He did not. Everything He did had meaning and purpose. The Church He built is no different. Christ said He would build one Church, and not churches. This Church would be built on the Rock (office of Head Bishop). Why is the office of Rock effective? Only because Christ made this office and protects it. Why would the gates of Hell never prevail against His one Church? Because Christ built it and protects it from error in faith and morals.

Have you not read how Christ, in addition to giving Rock authority that He gave to no other Apostle, had a special relationship with The Rock He made? It is Christ and Peter. Why? Because this is how it is in God’s One Church. It is Christ and the Rock of the Church He made.

The ignorant will try to separate things with either/or. With what Christ has established, it’s not either/or. These things must exist with Christ and for Christ.

The ignorant will say it is either God or the Church He built.
The wise, In truth will say it is God and His Church.
Why? Because it is in the Church, His Body, His Bride, that we have the truth about Him without error and His Seven Sacraments that unite us more fully to Him. By rejecting what Christ has established to know Him and be close to Him, you therefore reject Christ. Evidence is that those ignorant of what the Scriptures actually teach, end up creating their own version of Christ in their own image and to their own liking.

The ignorant will say it is Jesus or the Pope.
The wise will say it is through the office of Rock of the Church He made (and which God protects from teaching error in faith and morals) that we know God without error.

The ignorant will say the Bible or the church.
The wise will say God’s Catholic Church with the Bible it authored.

The ignorant will say either God or the priest.
The wise will say God through His priests who act in the Person of Christ who is the High Priest and Who gives authenticity to the Sacraments in His Church.

The ignorant will say that it is Jesus because His Church went astray.
The wise will say that it is Jesus and His Church which cannot go astray because of His promise and protection that the gates of Hell will never prevail.

The ignorant will say either Mary or Jesus.
The wise will say Mary with her Divine Son.

We could go on, but this is enough to illustrate the point (not that I think the ignorant will understand and go with this truth).

The Church is true because of Christ. The ignorant will not know this, and the arrogant will speak against the truths taught by God’s one Church. In doing this, the arrogant speak against God.

 

[guanophore]

I stand on the gospel alone, not the interpretations or traditions that you believe supercede the Word of God.

I know you believe this, heis. I think you believe it with all sincerity of heart. You do not see that everyone must interpret what enters through the senses, and that you interpret the bible according to what you have been taught, and what you perceive.

Sacred Tradition does not “superced” the Word of God. It is part of the Word of God. It is the portion of His revelation that was not written into the NT. It is equal to the holy scripture,and was never meant to be separated from it. It is to be respected together with the Holy Writing.

If you were of that truth known as the Holy Spirit, we would not be having this conversation.

I believe that you are sincere in this statement also. You are honest in your perception that those who do not expereince the HS in the way that you believe you do are not authentic Christians.

So if what was authentically taught is contrary to the Word of God, you will stand by it? In other words, if what was taught changes scripture, you stand by it?

There is nothing in Sacred Tradition that is contrary to the Word of God. It cannot be, since they come from the same Source. What is contrary is your perceptions of both.

The only acceptable offering is an offering of righteousness which comes from a born again believer who has Christ working through him.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

The Apostles taught that this is the Eucharist.

Truth in scripture and your perception of truth is not the same.

I find it curious that you are able to understand and accept that other people have variant perceptions, but that you cannot. You believe that you speak from God, and are under the “unction of the HS”, but others must have misperceptions.

It seems like you believe that your “perception of truth” must be the correct one.

GOD BUILT THE CHURCH, NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. The CC tried to extinquish the church from existance. READ YOUR OWN HISTORY.

I spend a little time on history every day, heis. I think if you do the same, you will find that there have always been wolves in the church trying to stamp it out. They have not succeeded because the Church is built by Christ, and enjoys His promise of perpetuity.

Who is the head of the church on earth, Jesus or the Pope?

The Head is Christ. He works through the successor of Peter. This is the way He set things up. It was to Peter He gave the commandment to feed and care for the sheep. Peter passed this responsibility on to His successor.

You err again. To say the bride is made spotless is earned is sin in itself.

The bride is not made spotless by having “earned”. I don’t know where you got that. The Church is purified by His Blood.

And as long as the church is on earth, it is made of men in constant need of forgiveness.

Then I suggest you get busy starting to forgive! It is clear that you are hanging on to no small amount of resentment toward the Catholic Church.

There is not one man who can live a life without sin. Only Jesus was able to do that.

You are wrong, heis. The reason Jesus came is to deliver us from sin. He succeeded in this fully and completely. We are no longer slaves to sin,and can choose not to sin. This is what holiness is about. To assert that one in Christ must continue to sin is contrary to scripture, and Apostolic Teaching.

Do you not realize that it takes salvation firstly, to be part of the church?

Yes, but you and I have a different understanding of “salvation”. Your concept springs from the traditions of men that came out of the Reformation. They departed from what the Apostles taught so that they could justify departing from the Church He founded.

A man either believes Jesus is of God, is God or he is of the spirit of the antichrist.

Yes, I think you do believe He is God. I am not sure if you believe this in the Mormon sense of the word, or if you are some offshoot of mormonism. Either way, you believe He is a created “god”.

I accept the teaching of the apostles, but as far as what you call the early church fathers, I will make my decision on if what they wrote was contrary or aligned with the Word of God.

It would be of benefit if you could begin to read them, at least. They were closer to the apostles than you, and had a more pure access to what the Apostles believed and taught.

Your standard, however, is flawed. Your perceptions are not the bar by which Truth should be measured.

As for being indoctrinated to anticatholic, that is silly. I am indoctrinated in the Word of God and am against all doctrines of men that add or take from the Word of God.

It is possible that you do not realize that this is an anti-Catholic perspective.