Jesus's claims to divinity?

[heiscominginthe]

guanophore;5630831]No, heis, they were not. There were whole parts of the Roman Empire that some of the letters did not reach. Some churches had posession of, and were using documents that were later not included in the canon, such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas. There was quite a bit of disagreement about which books were inspired, and which were not, and out of the 400+ being examined, which should be included in the canon.

I am referring to the early churches established by the apostles.

There were letters that were considered inspired that were not included, and some of those that were later included were not considered by some to be inspired.

Such as?

By defeated I mean that God revealed His eternal Truth to the Church, just as He promised. He also was clear that people would continue to fall into error. That is why it is so important to have an infallible guide.

Now, is the infallible guide the Holy Spirit or the CC?

Yes, I was on the wrong side (espousing heretical beliefs) for a long time.

So what denom are you referring to?

Of course, you must believe this, in order to justify yourself.

The Word of God justifies itself. It needs no help from me.

You are confusing the actions of sinful men with the actions of the pure and infallible bride of Christ. The Church cannot sin because she has as her Head Christ Himself, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements that prevent her from error. When men sin, they separate themselves from His Holiness.

All men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

The Catholic Church teaches that it is a sin to commit murder. The end does not justify the means. We are not in a seat high enough to judge the souls of such men. Only God can do that.

Yet, there are many in the CC past who did not practice what they preached.

No, heis. The debates had nothing to do iwth how they “felt”. The debates had to do with understanding how to apply what the Apostles taught to the issues of the day. There were issues that emerged that did not exist in the time of the Apostles. When new heresies arose, the Church had to take action to shepherd the flock into all Truth. One of these issues was to define the canon - something not possible in the times of the Apostles.

So let’s say the apostles did not exist, then would the NT exist? You say the apostles did not define the canons, I say they did. Just because it was hand written and not of a printing press does not mean it did not exist.

For if the canons had only been orally passed down from generation to generation, this world would be already judged.

For when you examine how a man is told one thing and then he tells it to another, and that person tells this person, over time the message is not the same. That is why it is important to have it written.

No, heis. Chaos was present. the debates afforded the opportunity to deliver the faithful from chaos. The devil always wants to split the Body fo Christ by such chaos.

Yet, which side was of the true faith? The one being hunted down and killed for disagreeing with the council or the council itself. I tell you this, that the true bride of Christ will not hunt down and kill those who oppose it. The bride is like Jesus who was the innocent lamb who was slaughtered.

No, heis. The decisions made by the councils guided the Church into all Truth. The people who were hunted and persecuted were victims of the pride, arrogance, and sometimes the fears of sinful persons who did not understand the principles that Jesus taught. When the Councils condemned heresies, they did so just as the Apostles did. It was not a license to kill,. but a statement of one’s faith becoming shipwrecked if they refused the revelation of God.

Not a license to kill? Yet, they killed.

No, heis, you are in error. I understand a lot more about the rifts in the church than you think. I do agree with you, that they falling away began long before the Reformation.

At least we argee on something.

The Apostles called the Church Catholic, as is reflected in the NT, and the letters of the early fathers.

No. Your understanding of the history of scripture is very limited. The Apostles taught the doctrine that we see in scripture before any of it was written. The earliest letter we have is 20 years after the Church was born. The entire collection was not brought together for centuries.

I disagree. I believe the apostles worked very hard to make sure each church had the gospels, had the scriptures. And all were in one accord. To do different would not be the way of the Lord. For that is what it means to be in one accord, to be the body of Christ.

 

[elvisman]

Such as?

The Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apocalypse of Peter were 3 books that were widely-read and very popular in the Early Church. Many argued that they should be included in the canon. Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, Jude and Revelation were considered by many in the Early Church to be uninspired, yet made it into the canon.
No matter how you slice it - these matters were decided by the Catholic Church.

**On the other hand – Luther wanted to delete the Epistle of James, Esther, Hebrews, ****Jude ****and Revelation. If it had not been for his contemporaries, he *****might ***have gotten away with it and Protestants would be reading a much smaller bible.

All men are sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

Men sin - the Church cannot.
Take, for example, Contraception. The Cathoic Church stood alone after every denomination fell away from their belief that is was intrinsically evil.

Before the Anglican Church’s Lambeth Conference in 1930 - EVERY denomination held this practice to be evil, but one by one, they fell away from this belief. The Catholic Church COULDN’T because this would have meant that it was just like the rest instead of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ.

Now, is the infallible guide the Holy Spirit or the CC?

The infallible guide is the Holy Spirit. The infallible interpreter is the Catholic Church, which is the Body of Christ.

Yet, there are many in the CC past who did not practice what they preached.

And the same can be said for MANY within Protestantism.

So let’s say the apostles did not exist, then would the NT exist? You say the apostles did not define the canons, I say they did. Just because it was hand written and not of a printing press does not mean it did not exist.
For if the canons had only been orally passed down from generation to generation, this world would be already judged.

For when you examine how a man is told one thing and then he tells it to another, and that person tells this person, over time the message is not the same. That is why it is important to have it written.

Most** of the Apostles weren‘t even alive when the final books of the NT were written.**
**How **could you say that they decided the canon? This is ludicrous – even for you.

Not a license to kill? Yet, they killed.

As did many Protestants kill thousands of Catholics over the centuries.

I disagree. I believe the apostles worked very hard to make sure each church had the gospels, had the scriptures. And all were in one accord. To do different would not be the way of the Lord. For that is what it means to be in one accord, to be the body of Christ.

**You can disagree until the cows come home but the Church relied almost exclusively on oral teaching from the ****earliest ****of times. **
Paul says several times in his letters to hold fast to their traditions and words (2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 1:12-14).

 

[Hope3]

I don’t support either the Church of England or the Catholic Church, however it would seem to me that if they had not waited so long to translate the bible into the common vernacular they could have saved everyone a lot of trouble…

Dan

The common vernacular would have saved everyone a lot of trouble? I don’t think so. “Everyone” then decides to become his/her own Scripture “expert” and therefore denounces all contrary opinions. Of course, this is assuming that he/she can read in the first place. This is what happened at the time of the deformation/reformation when more people could actually read. Reading and correct understanding/comprehension of what is read do not always happen at the same time as is seen today by the myriad of opposing/differing opinions on the meaning of the same Scripture verses studied.

The stained glass windows in churches and statues in churches served a good purpose. They told a “story” about the faith/Bible which illiterate people could easily understand.

They were/are also reminders to dispose oneself to prayer and reflection on God and the communion of saints so that we can more perfectly imitate their good lives so that we can join them in heaven when our earthly life is over.

 

[heiscominginthe]

elvisman;5643546]The Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Apocalypse of Peter were 3 books that were widely-read and very popular in the Early Church. Many argued that they should be included in the canon. Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, Jude and Revelation were considered by many in the Early Church to be uninspired, yet made it into the canon.
No matter how you slice it - these matters were decided by the Catholic Church.

I agree that the books you listed should not have been included in the bible. Yet, let us examine why they should not be included. Who were the authors of these canons? Was it an apostle or one working with an apostle? Certainly not, and this is how it was determined not to be included. The others you listed were deemed by association with an apostle.

**On the other hand – Luther wanted to delete the Epistle of James, Esther, Hebrews, ****Jude ****and Revelation. If it had not been for his contemporaries, he *****might ***have gotten away with it and Protestants would be reading a much smaller bible.

Men sin - the Church cannot.
Take, for example, Contraception. The Cathoic Church stood alone after every denomination fell away from their belief that is was intrinsically evil.

Before the Anglican Church’s Lambeth Conference in 1930 - EVERY denomination held this practice to be evil, but one by one, they fell away from this belief. The Catholic Church COULDN’T because this would have meant that it was just like the rest instead of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ.

I am not a fan of Luther either. Although he opened up a can of worms, there are things he said and did that I don’t agree with.

You say the catholic church would be like the rest, but here is where you flaw. The rest was like the catholic church, not exactly alike, but closely similar with the exception of a few who refused to accept the pagan rituals and pagan holidays created by the CC.

The ones similar to the CC practiced many of the traditions created by the CC, such as, Christmas, Easter, baptizing infants and baptizing in general as instucted by the CC. And this was also their downfall.

**The infallible **guide is the Holy Spirit. The infallible interpreter is the Catholic Church, which is the Body of Christ.

A man sins and is in need of the covering of the blood of the lamb. He is part of the church by being born again and then remaining under the covering of the cleansing blood of the lamb. His sins are forgvien him when he first asks and as long as he remains under the covering of the blood, he can be views as sinless, but not of his own accord, but by the power in the blood by way of faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

And the same can be said for MANY within Protestantism.

I see little difference between must of protestantism and catholosism. They are more similar then not.

Most** of the Apostles weren‘t even alive when the final books of the NT were written.**
**How **could you say that they decided the canon? This is ludicrous – even for you.

To write a canon makes it a canon. When the apostle wrote it or had it written, it became a canon in the church.

**As did many Protestants kill thousands **of Catholics over the centuries.

Yet, who has more blood on their hands? Yet, to kill one or a thousand is still murder.

**You can disagree until the cows come home but the Church relied almost exclusively on oral teaching from the ****earliest ****of times. **
Paul says several times in his letters to hold fast to their traditions and words (2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 1:12-14).

Say what you will, but to rely solely one oral teachings is foolishness. This is not the way of the Lord. IT IS WRITTEN. Do you really believe such non-sense? Maybe your religion hands things down orally, but I stand on the Word of God. As for handing teachings down orally only, that explains allot about your stand.

Jesus said, “It is written.” I will stand on that.

 

[elvisman]

I agree that the books you listed should not have been included in the bible. Yet, let us examine why they should not be included. Who were the authors of these canons? Was it an apostle or one working with an apostle? Certainly not, and this is how it was determined not to be included. The others you listed were deemed by association with an apostle.

WHO** determined that the books were associated with an Apostle? **
HOW** was it determined that a book was not to be included****?**
WHAT Authority determined this?
You don’t know – do you?

I am not a fan of Luther either. Although he opened up a can of worms, there are things he said and did that I don’t agree with.
You say the catholic church would be like the rest, but here is where you flaw. The rest was like the catholic church, not exactly alike, but closely similar with the exception of a few who refused to accept the pagan rituals and pagan holidays created by the CC. The ones similar to the CC practiced many of the traditions created by the CC, such as, Christmas, Easter, baptizing infants and baptizing in general as instucted by the CC. And this was also their downfall.

Name ONE, single solitary pagan ritual or holiday established by the Catholic Church. Christmas is the celebration of the Birth of our Lord. Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of our Lord.
You don’t have a clue – do you?

A man sins and is in need of the covering of the blood of the lamb. He is part of the church by being born again and then remaining under the covering of the cleansing blood of the lamb. His sins are forgvien him when he first asks and as long as he remains under the covering of the blood, he can be views as sinless, but not of his own accord, but by the power in the blood by way of faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

**This is COMPLETELY false. A person is NEVER declared sinless whether he is born again or not – until he REPENTS. He can and DOES fall into sin after. Jesus redeemed us on the cross but that doesn’t mean your sins are forgiven UNLESS you repent – even ****AFTER **being born again. You can be born again and LOSE favor with God and be damned to hell. We must endure to the end.
You REALLY need to study the Scriptures:
Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:26-27, 1 John 5:13,

 

[elvisman]

I see little difference between must of protestantism and catholosism. They are more similar then not.

Your charge was:
“Yet, there are many in the CC past who did not practice what they preached.”
I was merely calling you on that** inaccuracy****.**

To write a canon makes it a canon. When the apostle wrote it or had it written, it became a canon in the church.

NOT true. Canons must be declared or decreed AUTHORITATIVELY**.**
There were MANY books that people considered canon in the early years of the church that were NOT. Some included the Shepherd of Hermas, The****Epistles of Clement and the Apocalypse of Peter.;
You simply don’t understand history or canon.

Yet, who has more blood on their hands? Yet, to kill one or a thousand is still murder.

That wasn’t the issue. You accused the Church of murder and I exposed your by showing you that Protestants did ALSO kill thousands.
Did the Church kill many of those people – NO. GOVERNMENTS did.
You need to study your history.

Say what you will, but to rely solely one oral teachings is foolishness. This is not the way of the Lord. IT IS WRITTEN. Do you really believe such non-sense? Maybe your religion hands things down orally, but I stand on the Word of God. As for handing teachings down orally only, that explains allot about your stand. Jesus said, “It is written.” I will stand on that.

Foolishness**? That’s NOT what the Jesus and the Apostles taught:**
2 Thess. 2:15, Matt 16:16-19, Matt. 18:15-18, 2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2,
2 Tim. 1:12-14,

By the way, Jesus also said, “It is written” – and it WASN’T written in Scripture:**
Matt. 2:23
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazorean."
(Oral Mishna/Jewish Tradition)

Matt. 23:1-2
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.”
(Oral Mishna/Jewish Tradition)

You have MUCH to learn . . .

 

[heiscominginthe]

elvisman

NOT true. Canons must be declared or decreed AUTHORITATIVELY**.**
There were MANY books that people considered canon in the early years of the church that were NOT. Some included the Shepherd of Hermas, TheEpistles of Clement and the Apocalypse of Peter.;
**You simply **don’t understand history or canon.

Care to show me where that is written is scripture? The books you claim that were accepted by the early church is not true. The true faith would not accept such garbage. They would know the truth. Yet, this is where we see splinter groups forming in the very early church. For there were those who accepted the false canons who were opposed to those who refused to accept them causing splinter groups.

That wasn’t the issue. You accused the Church of murder and I exposed your by showing you that Protestants did ALSO kill thousands.
**Did the **Church kill many of those people – NO. GOVERNMENTS did.
You need to study your history.

See, here is the difference between you and I. You admit your church has blood on it’s hands. My church does not. For it is written, to say you love God, but hate your brother is not of God. And to kill in the name of religion is not the way of the Lord.

By the way, Jesus also said, “It is written**” – and it WASN’T written in Scripture:
Matt. 2:23
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, “He shall be called a Nazorean.”
(Oral Mishna/Jewish Tradition)

Sorry, but you are not correct. I suggest you look at the words " that what had been spoken through the prophets." Past tense first off. Now, your stand is on the word spoken. Now, do you really believe that oral communication went thousands of years sharing the words of the prophets or do you think they were written and passed down?

One more question. When Jesus told the devil it is written, when he was being tempted by him, thus rebuking him by the Word of God, was what he said truly written or was it orally passed down from generation to generation?

 

[Cashue]

John 10:30 “The Father and I are one.”

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

I would agree, Jesus may not have said the three words “I am God” but on many occassions jesus used the verb to be, he said “I am…” so whenever he said “I AM” he really was referring to the divine name YHWH and this is like saying “I AM God”.

For example when Jesus was asked about his age and how he could have existed before Abraham, Jesus replied “Before Abraham existed, I am”… what he was saying is before Abraham existed I am God!

He couldn’t say outright “I am God” because the Jews would have stoned him, so he said he was god’s son and the Jews tried to stone him (obviously, it was safer to be stoned for saying I am God’s son than for saying I am God).

Cashue

 

[Hope3]

See, here is the difference between you and I. You admit your church has blood on it’s hands. My church does not. For it is written, to say you love God, but hate your brother is not of God. And to kill in the name of religion is not the way of the Lord.

Please take that argument up with the Jews who killed (in the name of religion) those whose land they took and those whom they conquered and also take it up with Saul (St. Paul) and other like-minded Jews who killed the early Christians in the name of religion. They believed in slavery also.

Do not judge ancient history with today’s “standards.” You would have been and done exactly the same as them if you lived in their time.

Members of your religion probably never killed anyone in the name of religion because capital punishment for heresy was outlawed by the State’s/Country’s governments before your religion even existed, and if it had existed, it would not have been powerful enough to mandate killing/capital punishment for heresy.

It is best to leave history alone. God revealed Himself in His own way and He took thousands of years to do so. We should not judge the past by our own perceived righteous standards. This would be Pharisaical.

 

[elvisman]

Care to show me where that is written is scripture? The books you claim that were accepted by the early church is not true. The true faith would not accept such garbage. They would know the truth. Yet, this is where we see splinter groups forming in the very early church. For there were those who accepted the false canons who were opposed to those who refused to accept them causing splinter groups.

Care to show me where YOUR claim is written in Scripture? Because, I’ll show you where the Catholic claim is in Scripture –READY?**
Here you go:
Matt. 16:17-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:16:12-15
So, for you to reject the Catholic Church is to reject Jesus Christ.

As for the “splinter groups” in the Early Church that you speak of - these were HERETICS. Do you REALLY want to align yourself with them? Their heresies were eventually squashed by the Church, led by the Holy Spirit.
Even your most respected Protestant theologians agree that these were heretics.

See, here is the difference between you and I. You admit your church has blood on it’s hands. My church does not. For it is written, to say you love God, but hate your brother is not of God. And to kill in the name of religion is not the way of the Lord.

I said that GOVERNMENTS were responsible for most of the deaths of heretics – NOT the Church. Your church (one of thousands of splinter sects) DOES have the blood of thousands of Catholics on its hands. You all claim to be "the Church", so you must all accept the guilt for each others mistakes.

To kill in the name of religion is*** not ***the way of the Lord? Have you ever read the Old Testament? Judging by your almost complete lack of knowledge of the New Testament, my guess is that you haven’t.
Do you really want to go there?

Sorry, but you are not correct. I suggest you look at the words " that what had been spoken through the prophets." Past tense first off. Now, your stand is on the word spoken. Now, do you really believe that oral communication went thousands of years sharing the words of the prophets or do you think they were written and passed down?

One more question. When Jesus told the devil it is written, when he was being tempted by him, thus rebuking him by the Word of God, was what he said truly written or was it orally passed down from generation to generation?

Sorry, pal – the word that Jesus spoke were part of the ORAL Mishna. You just don’t seem to understand how things work. As for Jesus’ words to Satan – what’s your point? What he said is written. You can find much of it in Exodus and Deuteronomy.
I suggest you crack a Bible open and pray for understanding.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Please take that argument up with the Jews who killed (in the name of religion) those whose land they took and those whom they conquered and also take it up with Saul (St. Paul) and other like-minded Jews who killed the early Christians in the name of religion. They believed in slavery also.

Do not judge ancient history with today’s “standards.” You would have been and done exactly the same as them if you lived in their time.

Members of your religion probably never killed anyone in the name of religion because capital punishment for heresy was outlawed by the State’s/Country’s governments before your religion even existed, and if it had existed, it would not have been powerful enough to mandate killing/capital punishment for heresy.

It is best to leave history alone. God revealed Himself in His own way and He took thousands of years to do so. We should not judge the past by our own perceived righteous standards. This would be Pharisaical.

You just don’t get it. To murder, kill, is not of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any religion that does is not of Christ. Even if it be said this group or that group preach another gospel, preach heresy, it is not the way of the Lord to hunt them down and kill them.

 

[elvisman]

You just don’t get it. To murder, kill, is not of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any religion that does is not of Christ. Even if it be said this group or that group preach another gospel, preach heresy, it is not the way of the Lord to hunt them down and kill them.

Hmmm . . that would mean that a LOT of the early Protestants who butchered Catholics by the thousands would fit into this mold - which is completely your opinion.
And that also means that any later adherents to their Protestant beliefs (again - like you) would be following a false gospel and heresy.

 

[Hope3]

You just don’t get it. To murder, kill, is not of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any religion that does is not of Christ. Even if it be said this group or that group preach another gospel, preach heresy, it is not the way of the Lord to hunt them down and kill them.

God told the Israelites to kill people. There is a difference between killing and murder. If God orders it, it is killing in the name of God; it is not murder. Since He is the Creator, He decides who lives or dies and also when and how “they” die. Until God makes it very plain that He no longer wants the “pagans” or “heretics” killed in His Name, people will continue to follow God’s previous orders.

Look at St. Stephen’s dialogue before he was stoned to death. He calls the Jews “betrayers and murderers.” They are not receptive to his judgment of them and stone him to death while Saul/Paul approves:

Acts 7:51-60
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

These Jews were simply following what they had learned from their ancestors: to kill persons who did not believe as they did. These Jews were killing these new “heretics” in the name of their God “I AM WHO AM.”

Changing a peoples’ mindset does not happen overnight. After all, slavery is still practiced in parts of our world today even though it is now outlawed in the USA.

 

[heiscominginthe]

God told the Israelites to kill people. There is a difference between killing and murder. If God orders it, it is killing in the name of God; it is not murder. Since He is the Creator, He decides who lives or dies and also when and how “they” die. Until God makes it very plain that He no longer wants the “pagans” or “heretics” killed in His Name, people will continue to follow God’s previous orders.

Look at St. Stephen’s dialogue before he was stoned to death. He calls the Jews “betrayers and murderers.” They are not receptive to his judgment of them and stone him to death while Saul/Paul approves:

Acts 7:51-60
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

These Jews were simply following what they had learned from their ancestors: to kill persons who did not believe as they did. These Jews were killing these new “heretics” in the name of their God “I AM WHO AM.”

Changing a peoples’ mindset does not happen overnight. After all, slavery is still practiced in parts of our world today even though it is now outlawed in the USA.

Why God did what he did was for his reasons. Certainly, God told Israel to destroy his enemies and theirs. Yet, this is not what he wants for the body of Christ. You use the OT as a defense in orger to validate your argument of you religion. Yet, that does not make it right. To be of that spirit of truth tells us that the church is not here to kill or force it’s doctrines upon mankind. We are here to be the truth bearers, spreading the good news of the gospel, bringing the unsaved to salvation, NOT pushing them away.

 

[heiscominginthe]

elvisman;5681463]WHO** determined that the books were associated with an Apostle? **
HOW** was it determined that a book was not to be included****?**
WHAT Authority determined this?
You don’t know – do** you?**

Who determined it was estalished with an apostle? Hum, could it be that this info was passed from generation to generation? That I believe.

Did God get his Word into print or did man to it without the help of God?

Name ONE, single solitary pagan ritual or holiday established by the Catholic Church. Christmas is the celebration of the Birth of our Lord. Easter is the celebration of the Resurrection of our Lord.
You don’t have a clue – do you?

Sorry, bub, but Christmas, Christ Mass, is a pagan holiday started by the CC because there was another religion that practiced a holiday that had banquets and giving gifts which was causing the CC to lose many of it’s followers to this religion, thus, the creation of Chistmas. Easter, the word alone can be found in the bible. It was a pagan holiday also mimiced by the CC.

This is COMPLETELY false. A person is NEVER declared sinless whether he is born again or not – until he REPENTS. He can and DOES fall into sin after. Jesus redeemed us on the cross but that doesn’t mean your sins are forgiven UNLESS** you repent – even ****AFTER **being born again. You can be born again and LOSE favor with God and be damned to hell. We must endure to the end.
You REALLY need to study the Scriptures:
Matt. 7:21, Matt. 24:13, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:26-27, 1 John 5:13,

You don’t get it. All of our sins, past, present, and future were forgiven on the cross the day Jesus was put upon it. So the sin I have tomorrow was already forgiven, IF I ask for forgiveness. His blood only covers the sins of a truly repenting heart.

 

[elvisman]

Who determined it was estalished with an apostle? Hum, could it be that this info was passed from generation to generation? That I believe.

Did God get his Word into print or did man to it without the help of God?

**First of all – the rules for canonicity were established by the **Church **** – not by Protestants - with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised (John 16:12-15).

---

Secondly, the Scriptures are the Written Word of God – written down by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, bub, but Christmas, Christ Mass, is a pagan holiday started by the CC because there was another religion that practiced a holiday that had banquets and giving gifts which was causing the CC to lose many of it’s followers to this religion, thus, the creation of Chistmas. Easter, the word alone can be found in the bible. It was a pagan holiday also mimiced by the CC.

Oh, MY, yet another “scholar”. You’ve been reading the** lunatic ****ravings of Alexander Hislop and Lorainne Boettner again, haven’t you? Even if you haven’t – that’s where most of these ****anti-Catholic **myths started.

---

**Listen – Christmas is the celebration of the ****birth ****of Jesus Christ. Easter is the celebration of the **Resurrection of Jesus Christ, no matter what these 2 hacks said. Besides, IF the Church hijacked or “appropriated” pagan holidays and replaced them with Christian celebrations instead – that’s a WONDERFUL thing. **
Am I to surmise that you’d rather be celebrating the pagan holiday?

You don’t get it. All of our sins, past, present, and future were forgiven on the cross the day Jesus was put upon it. So the sin I have tomorrow was already forgiven, IF I ask for forgiveness. His blood only covers the sins of a truly repenting heart.

This is precisely what I said – IF I read you correctly. A person MUST repent today AND tomorrow AND whenever he sins in the future in order to be forgiven.

 

[Hope3]

Why God did what he did was for his reasons. Certainly, God told Israel to destroy his enemies and theirs. Yet, this is not what he wants for the body of Christ. You use the OT as a defense in orger to validate your argument of you religion. Yet, that does not make it right. To be of that spirit of truth tells us that the church is not here to kill or force it’s doctrines upon mankind. We are here to be the truth bearers, spreading the good news of the gospel, bringing the unsaved to salvation, NOT pushing them away.

When a person calls people vipers, serpents, whitewashed tombs, hypocrites, etc., he will most likely make enemies, not converts. Jesus came to divide, not unite. We each must “choose” to accept and practice/live His “way” of Salvation or else we will perish forever.

Jesus’ own words:

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Matthew 23:27
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Luke 12:51-53
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

It is either God’s way or hellfire. No other choice. Hellfire is much worse (than the death penalty was for heresy) because hellfire lasts for eternity.

People choose to think of God as only a beneficent Father, and they also choose to forget that He is also the just Judge who created hell with its everlasting fire.

It is true that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. However, “tough love” is usually the best thing for us to experience when we stubbornly refuse to listen to God, so that we will then begin to listen to Him and do His will and not our own.

 

[heiscominginthe]

elvisman;5708435]First of all – the rules for canonicity were established by the Church **** – not by Protestants - with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised (John 16:12-15).

---

Secondly, the Scriptures are the Written Word of God – written down by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Certainly the Word of God came unto men who were moved by the Holy Spirit of God. Yet, the Word came to be. As for canons, and who chooses if they are legit, do you think that only the CC had a monopoly on discernment or call all men who walk in the Holy Spirit of God also discern correctly what is and what is not of God?
Can it not be said that if it is truth, it is of God?

Oh, MY, yet another “scholar”. You’ve been reading the** lunatic ****ravings of Alexander Hislop and Lorainne Boettner again, haven’t you? Even if you haven’t – that’s where most of these ****anti-Catholic **myths started.

---

**Listen – Christmas is the celebration of the ****birth ****of Jesus Christ. Easter is the celebration of the **Resurrection of Jesus Christ, no matter what these 2 hacks said. Besides, IF the Church hijacked or “appropriated” pagan holidays and replaced them with Christian celebrations instead – that’s a WONDERFUL thing. **
Am I to surmise that you’d rather be celebrating the pagan holiday?

Can you show me in scripture where it says to celebrate christmas or easter? Can you show me how the CC came up with the days chosen for these holidays? Do you not understand that the only thing that matters is salvation? Do you not understand that everytime a soul is saved from death, the angels in heaven rejoice?

The earth is a battle ground for the souls of men. We are to rejoice in God’s gift of salvation. We are to remember the last supper as commanded by Jesus. I don’t recall it being called easter.

As for celebrating pagan holidays, sorry, but not gonna happen. I celebate the holidays set down by this nation such as memorial day and labor day. Yet, these were established by this government and do not violate anything pertaining to the Lord.

Did you know that there was a time Christmas was not allowed in the U.S.? Neither was the catholic religion.

This is precisely what I said – IF I read you correctly. A person MUST repent today AND tomorrow AND whenever he sins in the future in order to be forgiven.

This is the point I try to get across to the once saved, always saved folks. I believe these people can be compared to those of ancient Israel who partook in sin offering in OT times. They brought the offerings, but became complacent when truly being repentant in their hearts.

I believe those who get caught up in the OSAS teachings are just like that. They may have been born again once, but take salvation for granted, becoming complacent when asking for forgiveness. They ask for forgiveness with their lips, but their hearts are far from God. So would God forgive them? I don’t think so. If anything, it would probably anger him.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Hope3;5712991]When a person calls people vipers, serpents, whitewashed tombs, hypocrites, etc., he will most likely make enemies, not converts. Jesus came to divide, not unite. We each must “choose” to accept and practice/live His “way” of Salvation or else we will perish forever.

Jesus’ own words:

Matthew 23:33
Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Matthew 23:27
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

Luke 12:51-53
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

It is either God’s way or hellfire. No other choice. Hellfire is much worse (than the death penalty was for heresy) because hellfire lasts for eternity.

Jesus said those who follow him will be hated for his namesake. I have many make accusations against me, saying I seem like I am better then everyone else. I try to tell them I am no better at all, that I am a sinner, just like them, only forgiven.

It is written that the truth of God’s Word will offend and those who are of God will be hated for preaching the truth, including hell fire. Those who love sin do not want to hear the truth because it makes them feel guilty so they lash out often times in anger. When we examine the scriptures, did not all the apostles end up dead by the hands of the enemies of God?

People choose to think of God as only a beneficent Father, and they also choose to forget that He is also the just Judge who created hell with its everlasting fire.

It is true that we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. However, “tough love” is usually the best thing for us to experience when we stubbornly refuse to listen to God, so that we will then begin to listen to Him and do His will and not our own.

Certainly we must not sugarcoat hell fire. People must be made aware of how dangerous it is to walk this earth unsaved. For the next breathe can be the last. And life on earth is like a mist that is here and then gone. So there is an urgency in preaching salvation.

For it is not the will of God that any perish, but all be saved.

 

[elvisman]

Certainly the Word of God came unto men who were moved by the Holy Spirit of God. Yet, the Word came to be. As for canons, and who chooses if they are legit, do you think that only the CC had a monopoly on discernment or call all men who walk in the Holy Spirit of God also discern correctly what is and what is not of God?
Can it not be said that if it is truth, it is of God?

Yes, I am saying that ONLY the Catholic Church has the authority to declare canon with the guidance of the holy Spirit (John 16:12-15). Jesus established only ONE Church** – ONE authority (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 21:20-23) – and he doesn’t make mistakes.**
**
This is what Paul was saying in Eph. 4:4-6**
ONE** body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. **
AND 2 Tim. 5:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Can you show me in scripture where it says to celebrate christmas or easter? Can you show me how the CC came up with the days chosen for these holidays? Do you not understand that the only thing that matters is salvation? Do you not understand that everytime a soul is saved from death, the angels in heaven rejoice?

The earth is a battle ground for the souls of men. We are to rejoice in God’s gift of salvation. We are to remember the last supper as commanded by Jesus. I don’t recall it being called easter.

As for celebrating pagan holidays, sorry, but not gonna happen. I celebate the holidays set down by this nation such as memorial day and labor day. Yet, these were established by this government and do not violate anything pertaining to the Lord.

Did you know that there was a time Christmas was not allowed in the U.S.? Neither was the catholic religion.

Can you show me where in Scripture that the ecclesiastical divorce that Protestantism brought about is pleasing in the eyes of God? God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16) and Jesus prayed for the UNITY of his Body (John 17). – yet you belong to a separated, divorced faction.
As for holidays (holy days), Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 16:2 tell us that the Early Christians met for the breaking of break (Communion) on the first day of the week because that was the Day our Lord rose from the dead. If you want to take the word, Holiday literally – Labor Day and Memorial Day aren’t Holy Days – where the word Holiday comes from. BUT our Lord’s Birth and Resurrection CERTAINLY are. What do these celebrations have to do with violating anything pertaining to the Lord?

---

Do you honestly believe that God frowns on our celebrating the Birth and Resurrection of His Son – to the point of regarding it as a pagan practice? What is pagan about it?

heiscominginthe:
This is the point I try to get across to the once saved, always saved folks. I believe these people can be compared to those of ancient Israel who partook in sin offering in OT times. They brought the offerings, but became complacent when truly being repentant in their hearts.

I believe those who get caught up in the OSAS teachings are just like that. They may have been born again once, but take salvation for granted, becoming complacent when asking for forgiveness. They ask for forgiveness with their lips, but their hearts are far from God. So would God forgive them? I don’t think so. If anything, it would probably anger him.
At least we agree that OSAS is a false message that is completely unsuppoprted by the context of Scripture.