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T
TMC
Guest
Sure, I am not saying its not. I am reacting to the suggestion that Papias’ comments were “pretty recent.”
T
TMC
Guest
Sure, but not supported any less than the assumption that he must be the same “Mark” as another “Mark” mentioned in Scripture. To be clear, I am not saying either theory is correct. I think we have no idea who wrote Mark.
J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
And this suggestion was where?
T
TMC
Guest
You, in Post 39. You responded to my comment that the traditional view of Luke was that he was Greek and a travelling companion of Paul by saying that was “recent”. Maybe I misunderstood you.
L
Lunam_Meam
Guest
“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude: And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence therefore hath he all these things?” (Mt. 13: 55-56)
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon?
Are not also his sisters here with us?” (Mk. 6:3)
“For neither did his brethren believe in him” (Jn. 7:2-9)
“But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord” (Ga. 1:19)
At times, the term “brethren” refers to Jesus’s disciples in general, or His “cousins”, the sons of Joseph’s brother, Alphaeus (or Clopas): Simon, Joseph, Judas (Thaddeus), and James (James the Less/Just) – the latter two apostles. And, the reason James of Alphaeus was referred to as “brother of the Lord” was because He resembled Jesus in manner and demeanor.
Additionally, Alphaeus, and his two sons, Simon and Joseph, did not believe in what Jesus was preaching and doing, and it made them angry. Alphaeus remained angry and hateful up until his death bed, though Simon and Joseph eventually came to believe and become disciples.
Furthermore, in regards to the “sisters”, it refers to the women disciples. To name a few:
Mary of Joseph (Jesus’s mother)
Mary of Alphaeus (or of Clopas)
Mary Salome (wife of Zebedee)
Mary of Clopas (daughter-in-law to Mary Salome)
Mary of Bethany or Mary Magdalene (sister to Lazarus of Bethany)
Martha of Bethany (sister to Lazarus of Bethany)
Joanna of Chuza (Chuza was house-steward of Herod Antipas)
Annaleah of Jerusalem
Eliza of Bethzur
Marcella
Nike
Porphirea
Susanna
Sarah
…and so on.
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon?
Are not also his sisters here with us?” (Mk. 6:3)
“For neither did his brethren believe in him” (Jn. 7:2-9)
“But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord” (Ga. 1:19)
At times, the term “brethren” refers to Jesus’s disciples in general, or His “cousins”, the sons of Joseph’s brother, Alphaeus (or Clopas): Simon, Joseph, Judas (Thaddeus), and James (James the Less/Just) – the latter two apostles. And, the reason James of Alphaeus was referred to as “brother of the Lord” was because He resembled Jesus in manner and demeanor.
Additionally, Alphaeus, and his two sons, Simon and Joseph, did not believe in what Jesus was preaching and doing, and it made them angry. Alphaeus remained angry and hateful up until his death bed, though Simon and Joseph eventually came to believe and become disciples.
Furthermore, in regards to the “sisters”, it refers to the women disciples. To name a few:
Mary of Joseph (Jesus’s mother)
Mary of Alphaeus (or of Clopas)
Mary Salome (wife of Zebedee)
Mary of Clopas (daughter-in-law to Mary Salome)
Mary of Bethany or Mary Magdalene (sister to Lazarus of Bethany)
Martha of Bethany (sister to Lazarus of Bethany)
Joanna of Chuza (Chuza was house-steward of Herod Antipas)
Annaleah of Jerusalem
Eliza of Bethzur
Marcella
Nike
Porphirea
Susanna
Sarah
…and so on.
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J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
I spoke of the theory that Luke wasn’t an eyewitness. Apparently my point went over your head.
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J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
T
TMC
Guest
Well, it didn’t go over my head. I also don’t think the idea that Luke was not an eyewitness is new. Acts suggests that Luke was an eyewitness to some events (the “we” material), but there is no reason to believe Luke was an eyewitness to the events of his gospel. That is not a recent idea.
J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
T
TMC
Guest
Sure. I didn’t say it was the exclusive belief, but it is also not a new one. There are many theories about the identities of the evangelists, and have been for a very long time.
H
hope
Guest
What does he mean by clear? Each one of the named brothers can be shown that they have other parents. Since I only have your snippet, I do not know if he addresses the culture. The brothers address Jesus as being older not younger. As already been mentioned, Jesus gave Mary to John.
H
hope
Guest
Every single instance in scripture says brothers not siblings. If it had said siblings, we would not be debating it. The Aramaic language did not have the word cousin. My personnel belief is that those raised in this culture would have referred to their cousins as brothers for they would not have been common use to say cousin in Greek when speaking to others of their cousins. You are not considering the culture but instead inserting today’s culture.
T
TMC
Guest
Yes, the text says “brother” or “brothers” which is a type of sibling, not a type of cousin. That is what I meant, if that is not clear.
As to the culture and language, I think you have both backward. Despite your personal belief, I don’t believe there is any evidence that people in that time and place referred to their cousins as brothers. As to the language, I am certainly not an expert in Aramaic so I do not know if you are correct in that assertion, but none of the texts at issue were written in Aramaic, so I don’t think it makes a difference either way.
L
Lunam_Meam
Guest
Correct, and nowhere in my previous post was I talking about that Cleopas.Lunam_Meam:
Cleopas was at Emmaus.
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J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
That Cleopas IS Alphaeus.
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L
Lunam_Meam
Guest
Another name for Alphaeus is Clopas or Cleophas. However, the Cleopas you are speaking of was the son of Cleopas the Synagogue Leader, and the son-in-law to a fellow disciple named Simon, who was with him on the road to Emmaus.Lunam_Meam:
That Cleopas IS Alphaeus.Julius_Caesar:
Correct, and nowhere in my previous post was I talking about that Cleopas.Lunam_Meam:
Cleopas was at Emmaus.
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H
hope
Guest
Brothers in that culture did not necessarily mean siblings. We see this when Lot is referred to as Abraham’s brother not nephew and yes some translations do you use nephew but that is a translation of what actually was used.
Here is the Strong’s transplantation of the word brother:
80
As you can see, brother has multiple meanings besides siblings. There are multiple reasons that it did not mean siblings. There are at least two scriptures which show either Jesus was an only son John 19:26 or younger than His brother’s John 7:3 in where His brother’s give Him advice which only an older brother would do.
J
Julius_Caesar
Guest
Again where are you getting this from? Private revelation is only worthy of belief, not a credible source.
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