Jesus's siblings

[BartholomewB]

The unbelievers in Jesus’s family are unnamed. I

Compare these three passages in Matthew, Mark, and John. It is generally agreed, I think, that all three Evangelists are referring to the same household. The translation here is the RSVCE.

54 and coming to his own country he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren[a] James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.” 58 And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief. (Matt 13:54-58)

6 He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense[a] at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. (Mark 6:1-6)

2 Now the Jews’ feast of Tabernacles was at hand. 3 So his brethren[a] said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing. 4 For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For even his brethren did not believe in him. 6 Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil. 8 Go to the feast yourselves; I am not[b] going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 So saying, he remained in Galilee. (John 7:2-9)

 

[BartholomewB]

What happened to “ Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome” in Mk 15:40 and 16:1? Is this the son of Zebedee? Of Alpheus?

The James in Mark 15:40 and 16:1 is the son of Alphaeus, “James the Less.”

If it’s James the Less who is this James, we have doubting James.

James the Less and James the Greater were both members of the Twelve. That’s why the James listed in these two verses as a family member and an unbeliever is thought to be a third James.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Do we have it specifically stated that James and Judas were unbelievers?

It doesn’t name names?

 

[BartholomewB]

My post #165 addresses that question. .

 

[Julius_Caesar]

If we go with Mark 15:40 and compare with John 19:26 we see that Mary of James is the wife of James the Less’s pop, who is apparently the brother of Joseph.

 

[BartholomewB]

Yes, agreed. Clopas = Alphaeus. I think so too.

This hypothesis would imply that (1) Joseph and Alphaeus/Clopas were brothers, both married to women named Mary, and consequently (2) the word “sister” in John 19:25 denotes, in this case, a sister-in-law – or, strictly speaking, not even a sister-in-law but a brother-in-law’s wife. Some languages have a term for that degree of kinship, e.g. concuñada in Spanish, but English doesn’t.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

(2) the word “sister” in John 19:25 denotes

Or a third possibility. Mary’s sister is named Salome, who is the mother of Zebedee’s sons.

 

[Dan_Defender]

What happened to “ Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome” in Mk 15:40 and 16:1? Is this the son of Zebedee? Of Alpheus?

Papias wrote in the 2nd century that Mary, the wife of Alphaeus, was the mother of James the Less.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Lunam_Meam:

Again, you believe it was the eleven apostles who said “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” (Lk. 24:34).

Scripture says so explicitly.

Assuming that is true, and assuming Luke’s accounts in Lk. 24 are in order, after they said this Jesus appeared amidst the apostles who responded in fear and disbelief (Lk. 24:36-49). Why would any or all of the apostles be fearful and disbelieving if Simon Peter, and the other apostles were already proclaiming Jesus had risen, due to Simon Peter’s testimony of having seen Him?

Human nature.

Not good enough.

Agreed. Human nature isn’t good enough for the job.

Then again, we have people who claim COVID is fake, in the face of a worldwide pandemic.

There are people who refuse to take the recommended precautions, in the face of rising numbers of infections.

Humans can be pretty darn stupid at times. Fear leads to irrational behavior. Why would we expect that it would have been any different 2000 years ago?

I agree fear can lead to irrational behavior. And, I’m not arguing it would have been any different 2,000 years ago. However, there is not always just cause for fear.

It is being claimed Peter had already seen Jesus post-resurrection, and that the other ten apostles had already believed Peter’s testimony, and were proclaiming Jesus had risen. Assuming that is true, then for the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where Jesus had to convince them? It does not follow the aforementioned claims. Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Assuming that is true, then for the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to respond as though they had not seen, or even heard Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where Jesus had to convince them? I

Again it never says all of the Apostles believed. Compare with Matthew 28 where it explicitly says they worshipped, but some doubted.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

I agree fear can lead to irrational behavior. And, I’m not arguing it would have been any different 2,000 years ago. However, there is not always just cause for fear.

It is being claimed Peter had already seen Jesus post-resurrection, and that the other ten apostles had already believed Peter’s testimony, and were proclaiming Jesus had risen.

Again, it never says all of the Apostles believed.

I’m referring to you attributing the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. Assuming that is true, and assuming Luke’s accounts in Lk. 24 are in order, after having said that, Jesus appeared amidst the apostles in the supper room, and the apostles present reacted in fear and disbelief (Lk. 24:36-49).

For the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where Jesus had to convince them, it does not follow the aforementioned claims. Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I’m referring to you attributing the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles.

Like the Fathers of the Church and Catechism do. So it appears I’m in good company.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

For the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where Jesus had to convince them, it does not follow the aforementioned claims.

Matthew 28 has the Eleven doubting even as they worship Jesus.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Lunam_Meam:

I agree fear can lead to irrational behavior. And, I’m not arguing it would have been any different 2,000 years ago. However, there is not always just cause for fear.

It is being claimed Peter had already seen Jesus post-resurrection, and that the other ten apostles had already believed Peter’s testimony, and were proclaiming Jesus had risen.

Again, it never says all of the Apostles believed.

I’m referring to you attributing the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. Assuming that is true, and assuming Luke’s accounts in Lk. 24 are in order, after having said that, Jesus appeared amidst the apostles in the supper room, and the apostles present reacted in fear and disbelief (Lk. 24:36-49).

For the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where Jesus had to convince them, it does not follow the aforementioned claims. Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

Matthew 28 has the eleven doubting even as they worship Jesus.

You attributed the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34), which expresses belief, to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. And, assuming that is true, the instance in which they stated that occurred prior to that of Matt. 28:16-17. Therefore, you are saying at one point all eleven apostles believed, then they did not. I’ll tackle this later.

Back to the point, which is you attributed the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. Assuming that is true, and assuming Luke’s accounts in Lk. 24 are in order, after having said that, Jesus appeared amidst the apostles in the supper room, and the apostles present reacted in fear and disbelief (Lk. 24:36-49).

For the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where He had to convince them, it does not follow the aforementioned claims. Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You attributed the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34), which expresses belief, to having been spoken by the eleven apostles.

Not me. Augustine, Chrystotom, Bede, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church along with the text itself says this.

You are saying a novel idea.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

And behold, Jesus met them on their way and greeted them. **They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” **
Matthew 28:9‭-‬10 NABRE

It says here Mary was afraid.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Again, it never says all of the Apostles believed.

I’m referring to you attributing the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles.

Matthew 28 has the eleven doubting even as they worship Jesus.

You attributed the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34), which expresses belief, to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. And, assuming that is true, the instance in which they stated that occurred prior to that of Matt. 28:16-17. Therefore, you are saying at one point all eleven apostles believed, then they did not. I’ll tackle this later.

Back to the point,…

Not me. Augustine, Chrystotom, Bede, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, along with the text itself says this.

You agree with them, which is why you attributed it to the eleven apostles. And, assuming that is true, the instance in which they stated that occurred prior to that of Matt. 28:16-17. Therefore, you are saying at one point all eleven apostles believed, then they did not…

Back to the point, which is you attributed the verse “The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon” (Lk. 24:34) to having been spoken by the eleven apostles. Assuming that is true, and assuming Luke’s accounts in Lk. 24 are in order, after having said that, Jesus appeared amidst the apostles in the supper room, and the apostles present reacted in fear and disbelief (Lk. 24:36-49).

For the apostles present in the supper room, especially Peter, to react as though they had not even seen, heard, or believed Jesus had risen when He appeared amidst them, by being fearful and disbelieving to the point where He had to convince them, does not follow the aforementioned claims. Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

Lunam_Meam:

Mary Magdalene, and the two disciples at Emmaus were not even fearful and disbelieving when Jesus appeared before them post-resurrection.

"And, behold, Jesus met them on their way and greeted them. They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage. Then, Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.” Matthew 28:9‭-‬10

It says here Mary was afraid.

Over Jesus appearing to her? No, because she approached, embraced His feet, and did Him homage, which are actions that do not reflect fear. It is after this Jesus says to not be afraid regarding His instruction to her.

(1 of 2)

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

It was Simon, and not Luke who was with Cleopas at Emmaus.

The other disciple is unnamed…the other disciple is Luke.

The second disciple is named in Lk. 24:34, for reasons explained. Since you claim the second disciple is unnamed, then how are you certain they were named Luke?

(2 of 2)

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Over Jesus appearing to her? No, because she approached, embraced His feet, and did Him homage,

Jesus told Mary not to be afraid. Why would she tell her that if she wasn’t afraid?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The second disciple is named in Lk. 24:34, for reasons explained.

Except that’s a reference to Jesus appearing to Peter as that’s been shown over and over again.