Jesus's siblings

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

No. I said some of the apostles.

No. You said all eleven apostles said it too:

The eleven and their companions are saying this:

NIV
Luke 24:34: “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”

ESV
Luke 24:34: “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”

Nope. I didn’t.

I merely quoted the text.

The quote you provided from the text does not include who is speaking it, only what is being spoken. The part in your post specifically that says “The eleven and their companions are saying this” are your words.

 

[hope]

Or, the quote in question is incorrectly attributed to the eleven apostles.

Luke is the one who says it also there were others with them. If you are not going to believe Luke on this point why believe anything he writes?

I agree at one point Peter saw Jesus risen, but that verse does not indicate the Simon in Lk. 24:34 is Simon Peter.

But it does for the reasons I have stated.

The other alias’s of Peter were Simon and Simon Peter. If Peter had more than one name, it is nonsensical to assume Simon the Zealot/Canaanite did not go by, at the very least, just Simon at times. And, can you deny there was not another disciple(s), not apostles, named Simon?

First Simon is not an alias. Simon was his given name. He was named Peter by Jesus. Peter is also referred to as his given name combined with the name Jesus gave him Simon Peter. I am sure that Simon the Zealot did not go around with that name but it is used in scripture and nowhere in scripture does it call him anything but Zealot/Canaanite. It was so that it was obvious who scripture was referring to. We know it was Peter not only because of that point but because we know that Jesus first appeared to Peter than the other Apostles. That being the case, the Simon being referred to must be Peter.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

The quote you provided from the text does not include who is speaking it, only what is being spoken. The part in your post specifically that says “ The eleven and their companions are saying this ” are your words.

Luke 24:33-34 aren’t my words.

And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, who said, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”
Luke 24:33‭-‬34 RSV

 

[hope]

he quote you provided from the text does not include who is speaking it, only what is being spoken. The part in your post specifically that says “ The eleven and their companions are saying this ” are your words.

It is his words but that is what the text is saying. Diagram the sentence although as Gorgias pointed out the Greek makes it clear that it is the Apostles and those with them who are discussing it.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

The quote you provided from the text does not include who is speaking it, only what is being spoken. The part in your post specifically that says “The eleven and their companions are saying this” are your words.

Luke 24:33-34 aren’t my words.

I said the part in your post specifically that says “The eleven and their companions are saying this”, in regards to Lk. 24:34, are your words.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

That’s me paraphrasing what Luke says from verse 33 thru 34.

You have yet to provide any authority for your claims.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Lunam_Meam:

Julius_Caesar:

Lunam_Meam:

The quote you provided from the text does not include who is speaking it, only what is being spoken. The part in your post specifically that says “The eleven and their companions are saying this” are your words.

Luke 24:33-34 aren’t my words.

I said the part in your post specifically that says “The eleven and their companions are saying this”, in regards to Lk. 24:34, are your words.

That’s me paraphrasing what Luke says from verse 33 thru 34.

It says the two disciples from Emmaus found the eleven apostles and their companions, and said to them Jesus had risen and appeared to Simon.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, who said, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”
Luke 24:33‭-‬34 RSV

Luke 24:33-34 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven gathered together and those who were with them, who said, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” | Revised Standard Version (RSV) | Downl

The text contradicts you.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

The text contradicts you.

And, there’s text that contradicts you.

 

[hope]

This is not correct

It says the two disciples from Emmaus found the eleven apostles and their companions, and said to them Jesus had risen and appeared to Simon.

There is no “and said to them”
It says

So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them

who were saying, “The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”

It says WHO were saying I suggested to you to diagram it and you would see the who is those in the room, Apostles and those with them.

 

[hope]

And, there’s text that contradicts you.

Where is this text? You have not provided it or maybe you have but you have been shown multiple times that it is not true.

 

[billsherman]

And, there’s text that contradicts you.

I’m still not sure what the point of any of this is.

Why are we 300+ posts into this rabbit hole?

 

[hope]

Good question. But are you referring to the entire discussion?

 

[billsherman]

But are you referring to the entire discussion?

Well the whole nonsense for the past 100+ posts from @Lunam_Meam

The broader sense of Jesus and his relationships is perfectly interesting - but that discussion effectively ended a week ago.

 

[hope]

This is not going anywhere either. Although I will say that I have delved deeper into scripture. But I think it has run its course Maybe the thread should be closed.

 

[Gorgias]

If Lk. 24:34 is attributed to the eleven, that means they all believed Jesus had risen when the two disciples from Emmaus found them

No it doesn’t. The text doesn’t say that.

In any case, two thoughts for you:

• the text doesn’t specify whether it was “the eleven” or “those with them” who joyfully proclaimed the news to the pair who had returned from Emmaus. So, the implication that the eleven couldn’t have proclaimed the news doesn’t hold up as a necessity.
• in the Markan text, we see that Jesus appeared “in another form” to the two disciples. The attribution of disbelief isn’t described as an attribution of disbelief in Jesus or as an attribution of the other form, is it?

So… your assertions fail on both counts. They’re interesting claims… but they don’t follow necessarily from the text.

 

[Gorgias]

Then you have some reading to do.

Nah… really, it’s you who might benefit from a close reading of the text.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

If you are not going to believe Luke on this point why believe anything he writes?

Luke is not incorrect, only those interpreting his words to mean the eleven apostles and their companions are the speakers of what is spoken in Lk. 24:34.

“33 And, rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them, 34 saying: The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And, they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread.”

Verse 33 begins with the two disciples leaving Emmaus, and finding the eleven apostles and their companions at Jerusalem. Verse 35 ends with the two disciples from Emmaus telling the eleven apostles and their companions what things were done to obstruct their recognizing Jesus, and how they came to know it was Him in the breaking of the bread (see Lk. 24:30-31). Therefore, it does not follow that verse 34 is randomly about Peter seeing Jesus, rather clearly one of the disciples from Emmaus, Cleopas, telling the eleven apostles and their companions Jesus had appeared to his companion, Simon, as well.

Lunam_Meam:

hope:

Lunam_Meam:

And, if not all the eleven apostles believed He had risen, then how does Julius_Caesar and others know Simon in Lk.24:34 is Simon Peter?

Paul said so.

Verse(s)?

1 Corinthian 15:5

I agree at one point Peter saw Jesus risen, but that verse does not indicate the Simon in Lk. 24:34 is Simon Peter. Paul only states Jesus was seen by Peter, and after that by the eleven.

Lunam_Meam:

hope:

Lunam_Meam:

hope:

He was known by both names.

I agree Peter was also known as Simon, but there was more than one apostle/disciple named Simon.

In the verse, it calls him Simon only which is the designation of Peter. Never is Simon the Zealot or Cananaean referred to as only Simon.

Simon was not only known as Peter, but Simon Peter as well. If Peter had more than one name, it is nonsensical to assume Simon the Zealot/Canaanite did not go by, at the very least, just Simon at times. And, can you say with certainty there was not another disciple, not apostle, of Jesus named Simon?

I am sure that Simon the Zealot did not go around with that name, but it is used in scripture and nowhere in scripture does it call him anything but Zealot/Canaanite. It was so that it was obvious who scripture was referring to. We know it was Peter not only because of that point, but because we know that Jesus first appeared to Peter than the other Apostles. That being the case, the Simon being referred to must be Peter.

Can you say with certainty there was not another disciple, not apostle, of Jesus named Simon?

 

[Gorgias]

Luke is not incorrect, only those interpreting his words to mean the eleven apostles and their companions are the speakers of what is spoken in Lk. 24:34.

Read the Greek, my friend. It shows your take to be grammatically in error.


If you want to argue, you can argue with the Scriptures. Your argument isn’t with us, but with Scripture itself. Good luck with that…!

 

[hope]

Unfortunately, as@billsherman has said this is a rabbit hole. He is right. Not only are we are off topic but we are just repeating our points. This will be my last post addressing this topic.

So they (Identified as Cleopas and an unknown companion) set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they (Identified as Cleopas and an unknown companion) found gathered together the eleven and those with them who were saying , (The who is the apostles. Structurally both in Greek and in English Who refers back to the Apostles and those with them. And what are the Apostle and those with them saying?)"The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!“Then the two (The narrative returns to Cleopas and an unknown companion) recounted what had taken place on the way and how He was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.While they were still speaking about this,He stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
But **they **were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a ghost.
It is confusing because the writer continually uses the pronoun they without any other identification.
To follow your scenario each they would refer to Cleopas and an unknown companion which would make them believe and at the same time be an unbeliever. This of course is not true just as your objection " the eleven apostles simultaneously believed and not believed Jesus had risen” is not true

Can you say with certainty there was not another disciple, not apostle, of Jesus named Simon?

Scripture doesn’t drop in random names of people.
Yeah I can say with certainty that Simon was Peter, not only does Paul makes that clear but other Scripture does as well. The only time Simon is mentioned is referring to Peter. If another Simon is meant, he is so identified.