Jewish Blood "Libel" True?

[Valke2]

Seriously,

Is there a good source for these claims? Is there some way that we can see when they started and ended? Is there any documentation of any of it outside of the questionable sources?

I had never heard of this, and I know a fair amount of history.

For argument’s sake, if it was true, how can this justify hating anyone? As Christians, we are called to forgive and pray for those who injure us. I think that the good old anti-Semetic claim that Jews unfairly control the money is a better argument for disliking them than this. And I give it no credence at all

There are sources to support the persecution of Jews based on the false story of the blood libel, but other than the book in question, which may or may not state that some Jews actually did these things, there are no other sources of proof that I’m aware of.

 

[Valke2]

Aw Valkie, I understand you need to maintain your eating habit and the thing you do with your foreskin, but these will not get you into heaven. You still need to have a pure heart and a generous deed for chances had been given but alas you kill them, for Jesus said:

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not? Behold, you house shall be left to you, desolate. For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”.

You have forfeited Jerusalem and will not see it again until you confess with your tongue and bend your knee that he is Lord. Is 45:23, Ro14:11, Php2:10-11.

You don’t get invited to a lot of partys, do you?

 

[Deusdonat]

For argument’s sake, if it was true, how can this justify hating anyone? As Christians, we are called to forgive and pray for those who injure us. I think that the good old anti-Semetic claim that Jews unfairly control the money is a better argument for disliking them than this. And I give it no credence at all

Why are you so pre-conditioned to think that if someone brings up a past event that it must be to denegrate or hate someone? Even if I bring up the holocaust, it is not to call people to hate Germans. Or if I bring up the crucifixion, it is not to call people to hate Jews. Please, change your mindset here for the sake of your own well-being.

Since you admitedly didn’t know anything about the “blood libel”, then take this thread as merely a piece of historical trivia. But if you are serious about rationally and calmly learning and/or debating the topic, then let’s continue. But it doesn’t serve anyone to throw around the “hatemonger” monicker simply for bringing up a topic of historic interest.

 

[ralphinal]

Why are you so pre-conditioned to think that if someone brings up a past event that it must be to denegrate or hate someone? Even if I bring up the holocaust, it is not to call people to hate Germans. Or if I bring up the crucifixion, it is not to call people to hate Jews. Please, change your mindset here for the sake of your own well-being.

Since you admitedly didn’t know anything about the “blood libel”, then take this thread as merely a piece of historical trivia. But if you are serious about rationally and calmly learning and/or debating the topic, then let’s continue. But it doesn’t serve anyone to throw around the “hatemonger” monicker simply for bringing up a topic of historic interest.

Actually, my post was misleading. I was saying that if it was true THEN we should not have hated in responce. I am also saying that we should not hate today.

Do you think that the stories are true? If so, do you have an impartial source to point to?

 

[Valke2]

This is not a topic of historic interest so much as a topic historically used to whip up hatred against Jews, no matter what your actual motive is.

If someone said, let’s have a rational debate about the validitiy of the Protocals of Zion and you start by proving why they are not true," I wouldn’t be concerned with their motives, because I’d know what they were.

 

[Deusdonat]

Actually, my post was misleading. I was saying that if it was true THEN we should not have hated in responce. I am also saying that we should not hate today.

Do you think that the stories are true? If so, do you have an impartial source to point to?

Personally, yes, I think the story (singular, as in the case of St Simone) is true. But no, I do not believe it was a rampant or even semi-common occurence. If anyone here bothered to read the sources and material, it really is quite fascinating. Toaff speculates that the Jewish sect in question was very much similar to a group such as the Branch Davidians of David Koresh. At the time, Jews were required to live in ghettos, and this particular group was under great stress from the Christian society around them but ALSO the larger mainstream Jews who pre-dated this group. When enough stress was put on them, as they say, “desperate times call for desperate measures”. Just as Baruch Goldstein mowed down an unarmed group of praying Muslims with the end of triggering the final “race war”, so too did this sect commit this crime hoping to galvanize the whole of the Jewish community around them.

Of course, this did not work. And the fall-out consequences were that since the incident happened once, it “MUST” have happened (be happening) all around Europe, which set off a panic (very easy to do with a predominantly illiterate peasant population).

Anyway, it makes perfect sense given the circumstances and evidence produced. As Toaff mentions, the testimony given (albeit under torture) stated certain Sephardic prayers of sacrifice which were NOT used by the mainstream Jews (remember: this was a smaller sect) and thus unknown to the Jewish population of that area AND the Christians. Meaning, the Christians couldn’t simply have made up or forged these words, nor could they have been “coached” by some other Jewish sympathizers.

Anyway, like I said, it is to me quite fascinating as it brings up so many complex issues, many of which I find relevant today. And NONE of them have anything to do with fear-mongering, Jew-hating or finger-pointing.

 

[Kaninchen]

Toaff speculates

Exactly

Anyway, like I said, it is to me quite fascinating as it brings up so many complex issues, many of which I find relevant today.

I wonder just what us naughty, naughty Jews are supposedly up to now.

And NONE of them have anything to do with fear-mongering, Jew-hating or finger-pointing.

Of course, how could we doubt it?

 

[Deusdonat]

Of course, how could we doubt it?

Well, if you bothered to read through the entire post instead of snipe at it for attention you would see there is no reason for doubt.

Are there any adults here who want to enter into the conversation?

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, if you bothered to read through the entire post instead of snipe at it for attention you would see there is no reason for doubt.

Err? I did read it, I could have read it in Italian, if that had been necessary.

That wasn’t the it that I was referring to either.

Are there any adults here who want to enter into the conversation?

What a flooring response, I bet it took you ages to dream that up.

 

[ralphinal]

Deusdonat,
If I may expound upon your explination, tell me if this sounds about right.

There is evidence that there was at least one case of a Jewish sect preforming some sort of human sacrifice. The news of this spread and caused wide-spread retaliation against Jews as a whole.

Now, here are my questions based on this. First, how would word have spread so well and so quickly? This was before any sort of mass media. Somehow, the word was spread all around about the incedent. I did some more research, and similar claims were made against Jews in Poland in the late 18th century. These claims were investigated and they were found to be accurate. However, if you look at the investigation, it was shoddy by the proceedures of that era, let alone today. Another question is why would people not think that there are still Jews that do these things? Even if it was just like you propose, it was a very small group. However, those who hate will say that they hide it better now. Finally, why or how did this come about? Jewish laws prohibited the drinking of blood, let alone human. How did they justify this or was this ever figured out?

 

[Deusdonat]

First, how would word have spread so well and so quickly?

This is how.. Woodcuts were easy to create and distribute. They were the “mass media” of the time. The stories were sent throughout churches where most Christians attended for information among other things.

I did some more research, and similar claims were made against Jews in Poland in the late 18th century. These claims were investigated and they were found to be accurate. However, if you look at the investigation, it was shoddy by the proceedures of that era, let alone today.

Yup. it’s a head-scratcher, isn’t it? Muslim Egypt also had cases of it.

Another question is why would people not think that there are still Jews that do these things?

Unfortunately, I’m sure there ARE people who believe Jews “still” practice this, even agaisnt all evidence to the contrary.

However, those who hate will say that they hide it better now. Finally, why or how did this come about? Jewish laws prohibited the drinking of blood, let alone human. How did they justify this or was this ever figured out?

There are always Fanatical Groups which do things contrary to the norm.

One correction here: it was not the group of Sephardim, but Ashkenazim. The Sephardim were the regional inhabitants and the Ashkenazim came from the East to settle among them. It is the latter who are the suppsed culprits. The Ashkenazim brought a doomsday/kabaalistic sect with them. According to the Jerusalem Post: "Toaff refers to kabbalistic descriptions of the therapeutic uses of blood and asserts that “a black market flourished on both sides of the Alps, with Jewish merchants selling human blood, complete with rabbinic certification of the product - kosher blood.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Deusdonat,
If I may expound upon your explination, tell me if this sounds about right.

There is evidence that there was at least one case of a Jewish sect preforming some sort of human sacrifice. The news of this spread and caused wide-spread retaliation against Jews as a whole.

Now, here are my questions based on this. First, how would word have spread so well and so quickly? This was before any sort of mass media. Somehow, the word was spread all around about the incedent. I did some more research, and similar claims were made against Jews in Poland in the late 18th century. These claims were investigated and they were found to be accurate. However, if you look at the investigation, it was shoddy by the proceedures of that era, let alone today. Another question is why would people not think that there are still Jews that do these things? Even if it was just like you propose, it was a very small group. However, those who hate will say that they hide it better now. Finally, why or how did this come about? Jewish laws prohibited the drinking of blood, let alone human. How did they justify this or was this ever figured out?

There were incidences of people in the OT sacrificing their children … . Obviously it was a practice that has some roots in the belief of the ancient people. Sure, prophets had condemned it.

But, why should it be surprising today if this should happened somewhere somehow?

 

[chosen_people]

There were incidences of people in the OT sacrificing their children … . Obviously it was a practice that has some roots in the belief of the ancient people. Sure, prophets had condemned it.

But, why should it be surprising today if this should happened somewhere somehow?

The blood libel was used against the Jews to persecute and murder them. Other similar claims had the Jews poisoning Christian wells and spreading the black plague among the Christian population.

The truly remarkable thing is that certain modern Christians posted here as if it was an actual possibility which is perhaps indicative in itself. Perhaps we can go on to discuss whether there really were witches in Salem and whether they deserved to die or the part of the Jews in 9/11

For the record:

Judaisim forbids one human being to kill another.

I understand the claim was that the blood was used to make the passover matza. Please see Jewish laws of Kashrut as to blood in food.

Judaism lacks the pagan roots of other religions in which blood figures in their rituals.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Judaism lacks the pagan roots of other religions in which blood figures in their rituals.

Not that I’m saying blood libel is true, but we should remember not all Jews adhere to Judaism, they can be atheists and still be accepted by religious Jews. That’s the bad thing about that, you can’t hold Jews as a whole up to any religious standard because they can be any religion or non-religion they want and still identify as Jews.

 

[chosen_people]

Not that I’m saying blood libel is true, but we should remember not all Jews adhere to Judaism, they can be atheists and still be accepted by religious Jews. That’s the bad thing about that, you can’t hold Jews as a whole up to any religious standard because they can be any religion or non-religion they want and still identify as Jews.

Once again you confuse Christian religious universality and Judaism. As I explained to you in the other thread your dealing with two groups that are totally conceptually different. Christianity is a universal dogmatic religion. The fact that its roots were in Judaisim does not mean that you can apply to Jews and Judaisim or even understand Judaisim or Jews if you insist on applying your personal Christian concepts. Its like explaining Darwin to someone who wants to put it in relation to the creation story. As modern genetics proves I am a decendent of that same group of people who went out of Egypt with Moses. That is our nation and Judaism is our nation’s religion and that is something completely foreign from a Christian universal religious conceptual view where you are Christian if you accept certain dogmatic beliefs.

Secondly, since we are on the subject of the disgusting antisemitic blood libel, according to the libel the need for killing a little Christian child was for some “Jewish” rite or for the preperation of matzah for passover. So these imaginary Jewish people who performed these imaginary ritual acts of murder were obviously “religious Jews”.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Once again you confuse Christian religious universality and Judaism. As I explained to you in the other thread your dealing with two groups that are totally conceptually different. Christianity is a universal dogmatic religion. The fact that its roots were in Judaisim does not mean that you can apply to Jews and Judaisim or even understand Judaisim or Jews if you insist on applying your personal Christian concepts. Its like explaining Darwin to someone who wants to put it in relation to the creation story. As modern genetics proves I am a decendent of that same group of people who went out of Egypt with Moses. That is our nation and Judaism is our nation’s religion and that is something completely foreign from a Christian universal religious conceptual view where you are Christian if you accept certain dogmatic beliefs.

Secondly, since we are on the subject of the disgusting antisemitic blood libel, according to the libel the need for killing a little Christian child was for some “Jewish” rite or for the preperation of matzah for passover. So these imaginary Jewish people who performed these imaginary ritual acts of murder were obviously “religious Jews”.

Not necessarily religious Judaism though. You know Jews born to a Jewish mother can be atheists, or any belief, and still be Jews, right? So traditional values of Judaism aren’t automatically a factor when discussing Jewish behavior, that’s all I’m reminding.

 

[chosen_people]

Not necessarily religious Judaism though. You know Jews born to a Jewish mother can be atheists, or any belief, and still be Jews, right? So traditional values of Judaism aren’t automatically a factor when discussing Jewish behavior, that’s all I’m reminding.

Well we might as well be discussing if American Jews or Israeli Jews were behind 9/11. The blood libels were excuses to go out and murder Jews.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Well we might as well be discussing if American Jews or Israeli Jews were behind 9/11. The blood libels were excuses to go out and murder Jews.

When you say “Judaism lacks the pagan roots of other religions in which blood figures in their rituals.” you imply that all Jews must be observing Judaism which isn’t true, a lot of Jews don’t.

I’m not really interested in the blood libel, just letting you know Judaism isn’t always a factor when it come to Jewish religious behavior since Jews can be of any religion.

 

[chosen_people]

When you say “Judaism lacks the pagan roots of other religions in which blood figures in their rituals.” you imply that all Jews must be observing Judaism which isn’t true, a lot of Jews don’t.

I’m not really interested in the blood libel, just letting you know Judaism isn’t always a factor when it come to Jewish religious behavior since Jews can be of any religion.

The statement “Jews can be of any religion” is something completely beyond my ken as a Jew to understand. Perhaps you meant Jews do not have to be religious to be Jewish.

My reference to the blood libel was that the nonJews who made it up were totally without knowledge as to Judaisim. It would be similar to referring to a Jehovah Witness getting a blood transfusion.

 

[ralphinal]

I am still unsure of the whole thing.

Why would this only occure in places where the Jewis population was a minority? Would it not be logical that this would happen where they were the majority instead, where the governement could cover for them? Why have there been no documented re-occurences? IT seems like it vanished as suddenly as it appeared. Was there ever any collaboration of the story that was NOT recieved under torture?