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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
at what point in history did the christian church cease being a jewish sect?
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tjmiller
Guest
IMHO: One might say that what definitively distanced the early Church from its origin as a Jewish Messianic movement was the acceptance into its membership of Gentiles who had not previously been Jewish proselytes, or “God-fearers”.
This development, championed by St. Paul - and which of course precipitated the Council of Jerusalem - occurred in the early church of Antioch.
Another way of looking at it would be to say that the Church ceased to be Jewish when the point was reached where the majority of its members were non-proselyte Gentile converts.
Either way, it was within the lifetime of the Apostles…
This development, championed by St. Paul - and which of course precipitated the Council of Jerusalem - occurred in the early church of Antioch.
Another way of looking at it would be to say that the Church ceased to be Jewish when the point was reached where the majority of its members were non-proselyte Gentile converts.
Either way, it was within the lifetime of the Apostles…
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Ghosty
Guest
Or one could take the stance that it never ceased being a Jewish sect, since one of the major beliefs of Judaism is that when the Messiah comes, Gentiles will join with Jews in the worship of God in the same way. The Catholic Church is actually just the logical application of this based on the belief in Jesus as the Messiah. Regardless, the incorporation of Gentiles into the post-Messianic worship is actually a fundamentally Jewish concept, with or without the Apostles, and goes back to the Tanakh (Old Testament).
Peace and God bless!
Peace and God bless!
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katewithak
Guest
Wow, I didn’t know it had! I had always thought of myself as a Catholic Jew.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
The Christians stood aside when the Jews revolted against Rome in 70 AD. The Romans destroyed the Temple at that time and the Christians were expelled from the Synagogues. This effectively destroyed any linkage between the Christians and the Jews.
The Jewish repudiation of the Christians left the Christians open to roman persecution because only the Jews were exempt from worshipping the Roman gods.
The Jewish repudiation of the Christians left the Christians open to roman persecution because only the Jews were exempt from worshipping the Roman gods.
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tjmiller
Guest
The incorporation of the Gentiles into the People of God was of course a pre-Christian Jewish concept going back to the Prophet Isaiah. What had to be debated in the early Church was whether or not this meant that they had to become Jews first in order to become Christians, a proposition of course repudiated initially by St. Paul and then formally by the Jerusalem Council.
The expulsion of Christians from synagogues predated the Roman War by more than a generation, and in any case would not necessarily have demarcated Christianity as an independent entity, any more than the excommunication of pro-abortion Catholics would make them a formal separate religion.
The expulsion of Christians from synagogues predated the Roman War by more than a generation, and in any case would not necessarily have demarcated Christianity as an independent entity, any more than the excommunication of pro-abortion Catholics would make them a formal separate religion.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Given that a generation is about 33 years, a generation before the Roman War was the time of the Crucifixion. We read in Acts that the Christians continued to go to the Temple each day to pray. I doubt they were ejected from the synagogues but permitted in the Temple.
Father Arthur B. Klyber [a convert from Judaism], in He’s A Jew, states that it was about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem [circa 90 AD] that the rabbis issued the frightening prayer-curse and final excommunication of the Christian Jews. This was written out and read aloud in the synagogue prayers three times a day. This forced any closet Christians out into the open and exposed them to Roman persecution.
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b_justb
Guest
The Council of Jerusalem in AD49 made it possible for Gentiles to join The Way (Christianity) without being circumcised. In AD64 Nero made Christianity an illegal religion. In AD70 the Temple in Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans and the Jewish Diaspora began, further compounding the riff between Jews and Christians. In approximately AD85 the Jewish Council of Jamnia convened and made know by council what the Jewish canon consisted of (among other things). This is the official break between the Judaism and Christianity even though the break mush earlier. Much like AD1054 is the date of the Great Schism between the Orthodox East and Catholic West, but the division is seen much much earlier.
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tjmiller
Guest
It is a common misperception that the Jewish Synod of Jamnia formally defined the Hebrew Canon of Scripture. It rather was simply a series of debates.
We read in the Gospel of John (9:22, 12:42) that, within the lifetime of Jesus, those who professed Him to be the Christ were cast out of synagogues.
(I reckon a generation to be ca. 20 years.)
We read in the Gospel of John (9:22, 12:42) that, within the lifetime of Jesus, those who professed Him to be the Christ were cast out of synagogues.
(I reckon a generation to be ca. 20 years.)
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi Tj, do you have any sources to read concerning that council?
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tjmiller
Guest
Most of the literature on biblical studies I have at home is from my graduate-level studies nearly 15 years ago, and date back further than that. You can probably find something much more recent on the 'Net under a “Jamnia Canon search”, I reckon.
I recall that one of my books had a “transcript” of some of the rabbinic debates on the suitability of certain books of the Bible - the one on Song of Solomon was a doozy, as one might imagine. I might be able to dig that up again somewhere around here. (My house is something of a cluttered library - sorry.)
I recall that one of my books had a “transcript” of some of the rabbinic debates on the suitability of certain books of the Bible - the one on Song of Solomon was a doozy, as one might imagine. I might be able to dig that up again somewhere around here. (My house is something of a cluttered library - sorry.)
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tjmiller
Guest
Daniel:
“When the destruction of [Jerusalem] and the temple was imminent, a great Rabbi belonging to the school of Hillel in the Pharisaic party - Yochanan ben Zakkai by name - obtained permission from the Romans to reconstitute the Sanhedrin on a purely spiritual basis at Jabneh or Jamnia, between Joppa and Azotus (Ashdod). Some of the discussions which went on at Jamnia were handed down by oral transmission and ultimately recorded in the Rabbinical writings. Among their debates they considered whether canonical recognition should be accorded to the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs and Esther…[T]he upshot of the Jamnia debates was the firm acknowledgment of all these books as Holy Scripture.” (F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments, 97)
“It is, indeed, doubtful how far it is correct to speak of the Council of Jamnia. We know of discussions that took place there amongst the Rabbis, but we know of no formal or binding decisions that were made, and it is probable that the discussions were informal, though none the less helping to crystallize and to fix more firmly the Jewish tradition.” (H.H. Rowley, The Growth of the Old Testament, 170)
“When the destruction of [Jerusalem] and the temple was imminent, a great Rabbi belonging to the school of Hillel in the Pharisaic party - Yochanan ben Zakkai by name - obtained permission from the Romans to reconstitute the Sanhedrin on a purely spiritual basis at Jabneh or Jamnia, between Joppa and Azotus (Ashdod). Some of the discussions which went on at Jamnia were handed down by oral transmission and ultimately recorded in the Rabbinical writings. Among their debates they considered whether canonical recognition should be accorded to the books of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs and Esther…[T]he upshot of the Jamnia debates was the firm acknowledgment of all these books as Holy Scripture.” (F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments, 97)
“It is, indeed, doubtful how far it is correct to speak of the Council of Jamnia. We know of discussions that took place there amongst the Rabbis, but we know of no formal or binding decisions that were made, and it is probable that the discussions were informal, though none the less helping to crystallize and to fix more firmly the Jewish tradition.” (H.H. Rowley, The Growth of the Old Testament, 170)
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