Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

[Cattitude]

Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

By DEEPTI HAJELA and JENNIFER DOBNER

NEW YORK (AP) - Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.

Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said talks with leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which were held as recently as last week, are over.

“We do not ask for, or want your love,” Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz, said in a statement released ahead of a news conference Monday, the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

“We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion,” he said. “We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough.”

The church denied the charge. The 1995 agreement says the church will not perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon.

Church spokesman Mike Otterson said Michel’s decision to publicly denounce the church seems like a unilateral termination of the discussion.

“Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate and belie the long and valued mutual respect that we have had in past years,” Otterson said in an e-mail.

Posthumous baptism by proxy is a sacred rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century. The practice allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people. Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Otterson said the church has kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 200,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by a Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who works for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database.

She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.

“I’ve seen a steady procession of Jewish Holocaust names, especially names with camps linked to them, going to the International Genealogical Index,” said Radkey, who acknowledges that she has limited access to the records. “There’s no possible way of knowing exactly how many names, but it’s substantial.”

Comments?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Jewish group wants Mormons to stop proxy baptisms

By DEEPTI HAJELA and JENNIFER DOBNER

Comments?

On the one hand I can understand. The biggest thing is how disconcerting it could be for friends and family still living on this earth.

But, on the other hand I would say that if they really didn’t believe in this then why would they care. For example, if when I die they tried that nonsense, I wouldn’t care. By the grace of God I would be in Heaven or, more likely, Purgatory and there is nothing they can do to drag me out of there (I view that more as witchcraft than any true religious service). No Mormon idiocy after I am dead will drag me from Paradise to their fairy land.

 

[Layman]

Ha, ha, let these odd people try and mess with those on the ‘other side’. Most older religions know better than to mess with The Ancestors; in our case, the Holy Souls and The Saints of Heaven.

They forget that they’re dealing with beings who now have more spiritual ‘clout’ than they do.

I hope, for their sake, that our beloved ancestors are in a good mood when their name in invoked by these presumptuous people.

I’m fairly seething at the notion, and I’m still incarnated! [calm down, Layman, easy does it, remember, charity first!]

 

[nebula]

What happens is that Mormons who converted from a family with Jewish roots go digging for names and hits up ancestors who suffered and died in teh Holocaust. Well meaning Mormons go to town getting names so people can stand by proxy for the dead.

I have a split mind on this. One on hand if you don’t believe in it, why care? On the other, I can see how this would be upsetting to people who respect their dead.

 

[Cattitude]

I have a split mind on this. One on hand if you don’t believe in it, why care? On the other, I can see how this would be upsetting to people who respect their dead.

I have been thinking the same thing. I guess I would err on the side of not adding insult to injury in this case.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have a split mind on this. One on hand if you don’t believe in it, why care? On the other, I can see how this would be upsetting to people who respect their dead.

It also maybe of concern to people who think about their descendants. I don’t know how the records of Mormon ordinances are made available to the public. But I do know I don’t want my great great grandkids or even my cousins great great grandkids to believe I was LDS.

 

[Snow]

I hope, for their sake, that our beloved ancestors are in a good mood when their name in invoked by these presumptuous people.

Really?
What do you think they might do if they are not in a good mood?

 

[Snow]

It also maybe of concern to people who think about their descendants. I don’t know how the records of Mormon ordinances are made available to the public. But I do know I don’t want my great great grandkids or even my cousins great great grandkids to believe I was LDS.

Why would your descendants believe you were LDS?

 

[why_me]

Ha, ha, let these odd people try and mess with those on the ‘other side’. Most older religions know better than to mess with The Ancestors; in our case, the Holy Souls and The Saints of Heaven.

They forget that they’re dealing with beings who now have more spiritual ‘clout’ than they do.

I hope, for their sake, that our beloved ancestors are in a good mood when their name in invoked by these presumptuous people.

I’m fairly seething at the notion, and I’m still incarnated! [calm down, Layman, easy does it, remember, charity first!]

On the other hand, catholics are often praying to the saints on behalf of their ancestors who are in purgatory and on behalf of other people to. Isn’t this also interference with the dead?

 

[Layman]

My opinion: if you’re praying for the Holy Souls, that’s a kindness. St. Padre Pio said we don’t do it enough. If you plead for them with Christ, The Virgin Mary, and St. Michael, it’s up to the latter how to respond. You’ve made a petition to higher powers on their behalf.

Voodoo priests and necromancers go farther. They try to enlist the dead in helping them with their earthly concerns. Very dodgy.

If you’re trying to retrospectively change their religion(?), which is my understanding of what the Mormons are up to, I see it as a) A bit creepy b) rude c) ignorant and d) possibly Satanic.

Thinking about it, it also assumes the Holy Souls are dumb, and have no feelings about such antics. I’ve read elsewhere here that Mormons may be may not even be truly Christian, in strict definition. Not good also.

I see them as trying to ‘get at’ the departed. Based on what I’ve read in occult books (which are not reliable, I admit), I think they shouldn’t do this, for their own sakes.

**This is the month of November, dedicated to the Holy Souls, I understand. There was a plenary indulgence available to you, as a Catholic, on each day between Nov. 1-8 incl., applicable only to the Holy Souls.

Also, Catholic churches have a list of the dead you can add your relatives names to at this time, to be prayed for.

You can also perform any other indulgenced act, according to the prescribed norms, at any time of year and request it be applied to the Holy Soul(s) of your choice, or all of them.**

These are much nicer petitions to make, especially at this time of year. I recommend them to you.

 

[nebula]

On the other hand, catholics are often praying to the saints on behalf of their ancestors who are in purgatory and on behalf of other people to. Isn’t this also interference with the dead?

There IS something about taking a dead person’s name through temple ordinances which takes this to a level above praying for the person in purgatory. It’s true, you don’t believe that you aren’t coercing anyone, but to others it may seem too akin to acts of magic or voodoo or something- too close for comfort that is.

 

[ralphinal]

I totally understand their point. Part of the reason that they are dead is the ethno-religion that they were born into. Now, some group of people is saying that being Jewish isn’t going to get them into heaven so now they must be changed in death.

If I die because of something I am, do not try to force me to alter that in death.

 

[Jerusha]

If I die because of something I am, do not try to force me to alter that in death.

I figure the spirits of those who have been baptized-by-proxy are so angry they will help take care of the problem.

Let the LDS continue, they do it to their own end.

I know that this is a bit heterodox, but…

 

[BDawg]

Some of you don’t seem to understand what Mormon baptism for the dead is all about. Here’s a quick explanation meant to help Catholics understand our point of view.

1. We agree with Catholics that when Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5), he was talking about baptism and reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit. So we believe that someone must receive some kind of baptism to be saved.
2. We also agree with Catholics that just because someone doesn’t find God’s true Church and get baptized in it, that doesn’t mean they are automatically out of heaven. Catholics believe in the concepts of “baptism by desire” and “baptism by blood,” which allow for some non-Catholics to be saved. Mormons believe in doing proxy baptisms for the dead, where a living person is baptized in place of a dead person. The idea is that baptism is a physical sacrament that must be accomplished in the mortal sphere.
3. Paul mentioned such a practice in 1 Cor. 15:29, where he basically argued “why are some people baptized for the dead, if there is no resurrection?” There have been an ENORMOUS number of interpretations of this verse published by biblical scholars, but Mormons believe that it was a real Christian sacrament with Apostolic backing.
4. Mormons believe that the dead wait in a place called “the Spirit World” between death and the resurrection. The righteous dead preach to those who did not accept the Gospel, and give them the chance to accept it. They still have their free will, and they can accept or reject it. We find Biblical warrant for this belief in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6. Peter said that when Jesus died, he went to preach to the spirits “in prison.” In 4:6, Peter says the Gospel was preached to “the dead” so they could “be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” We take that to mean that they can be given a fair judgement, because they were given an equal chance, but now can “live according to God” as spirits.
5. Meanwhile, Mormons in the mortal world perform baptism and other sacraments for their deceased ancestors, with the understanding that if someone accepts the Gospel in the Spirit World, they can accept the sacraments done for them.
6. We don’t believe that performing ordinances for people “does anything” to them. It just opens a gate for them.
7. This is a HUGE undertaking. The Church’s genealogical records have many, many millions of names. Individual Mormons (and others) can access these records, and can submit the names of their ancestors to be baptized, etc. There cannot be any rigorous checking process in this, because the volume is so high.
8. So when the Church made the agreement with these Holocaust survivors, they were trying to be sensitive to their feelings. But there is only so much they can do. They can remove the names of Holocaust victims from the records, but what if an individual Mormon submits it again, not knowing (or possibly not caring) that this is against Church guidelines?
9. This “independent researcher,” Helen Radkey, is an absolute nut. I have been reading newspaper articles about her for years, and if I remember correctly, she is some weirdo into astrology, or something like that, and she has some kind of grudge against the LDS Church. So she spends her time digging through the genealogical records to see whether anyone has submitted any “Jewish-sounding” names from the right time period.
10. What are we supposed to do? Totally abandon our belief system? It doesn’t hurt anyone. Also, what if a Mormon’s parents or grandparents were Holocaust survivors. Don’t they have the right to decide to have the sacraments done for their own parents? Or does this group of Holocaust survivors and Helen Radkey have a better right to determine that?

My conclusion is that some people want to get offended about things, and no matter how hard you try to be considerate, they will find some stupid reason to get bent out of shape and make a big stink.

 

[BDawg]

Here’s an excerpt from a PBS interview with Dan Peterson, a prominent Mormon intellectual at BYU.

***What is it specifically [about baptism of the dead] that Jews, … Holocaust survivors, are offended by? …

---

Many Jews in general are troubled by the notion of proselytizing. I remember speaking with a rabbi in Jerusalem, very nice guy, who said to me simply that to convert a Jew is the equivalent of killing a Jew, especially because Judaism has been so threatened, obviously particularly in the 20th century. I understand the sensitivities on that score. In terms of Holocaust victims in particular, there’s the sense that they died – whether they were religious or not – they died for being Jewish. So to take people who are in effect martyred for their Jewishness and then be baptized as Christians posthumously really offends a lot of Jewish sensibilities. That I understand.
I think the church has tried to be sensitive on this, but we are caught on this doctrine. And the doctrine is this: Ultimately anyone who is saved must be saved through Christ, and that means at some point explicitly acknowledging Christ and accepting baptism. And that goes for everybody who has ever lived. So in a sense we’re not theologically free to say to anyone, including Jews, that we just won’t do this, and in our viewpoint, in fact, at the end of time, people would say thank you for this.

But in the meantime, I understand the offensiveness of it, and it’s a very, very troubling thing, and we go out of our way, particularly the church in the 20th and 21st centuries, to be religiously sensitive, and we’re genuine about it. There’s genuine friendship between the church and Jews and Catholics, and in a certain level Muslims. We’ve been cultivating those ties, so we don’t want to be seen as people who trample on other people’s religious sensibilities, especially since it’s been done to us quite a bit.

I gather that there was a promise to desist, but then it continued.

Yeah. The problem as I understand it – and I haven’t followed it really carefully – but there was a promise made not to single out Holocaust victims. But it’s hard to enforce that with potentially millions of people turning in names of people to have ordinances done for them. And there isn’t necessarily a mark in anyone’s record saying “Holocaust victim.” …
Now, if they’re just turning in lists of Holocaust victims they’ve taken off the walls at Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, then obviously someone might catch that. But if you’re just finding the name in some other way, it’s hard to tell, and we don’t have the bureaucracy in Salt Lake to necessarily monitor that. My impression was that the promise was made in good faith; the violations were probably made in good faith, by people who probably didn’t even know what the church policy was. But nevertheless it’s embarrassing. …

 

[faithfulone]

Didn’t you guys baptize Hitler by proxy too? And some of the Popes? Why are you baptizing people by proxy that have already been baptized?

 

[nebula]

faith,

Mormons only recognize their baptisms as valid baptisms. Likewise they take the names through endowment and sealing ceremonies.

bdawg,

Honestly I’m starting to think much of teh trouble is actually Mormons who don’t understand how other culture or religion view their dead. When I was a MOrmon the standard line was “well if they don’t think it works why the heck do they care?”. That view shows a profound ignorance (which I’m only recently coming to terms with myself) of how much reverence other religions and cultures can have for their dead ones.

 

[BDawg]

Honestly I’m starting to think much of teh trouble is actually Mormons who don’t understand how other culture or religion view their dead. When I was a MOrmon the standard line was “well if they don’t think it works why the heck do they care?”. That view shows a profound ignorance (which I’m only recently coming to terms with myself) of how much reverence other religions and cultures can have for their dead ones.

Hi nebula,

So what do you suggest we do, even if we come to terms with our “profound ignorance”? Abandon our beliefs and practices whenever someone says it makes them “feel bad”?

I have read commentary articles by Jewish rabbis that say these Jewish groups ought to lay off the Mormons, because the Mormons have a relatively excellent record of treating the Jews well. And from the Mormon point of view, we are showing respect to the dead by doing this work for them.

Is this an invalid opinion, because these rabbis weren’t being sensitive enough to Jewish people’s feelings?

When I say something like, “well if they don’t think it works why the heck do they care?” what I am really saying is:

“People have all kinds of religious beliefs and practices, and sometimes religious differences lead people to start killing each other. So it is a wise person who doesn’t get too worked up about other people’s religious beliefs. In this case, the Mormons’ religious differences with others lead them to peacefully proselytize and to perform peaceful, private, non-intrusive rituals for the dead who were not Mormons. Maybe some people don’t like it, but in the grand scheme of things, it could be a lot worse. So if it were me, I would shrug my shoulders and say, ‘Who cares?’”

 

[BDawg]

Didn’t you guys baptize Hitler by proxy too? And some of the Popes? Why are you baptizing people by proxy that have already been baptized?

What you need to understand is that the LDS Church says that one can only submit names for temple work if the people involved were born over 110 years ago, or are direct ancestors of the person submitting. If Hitler or the last Pope had their work done, it was because some not-too-bright individual submitted it against the regulations.

I’m sure the Catholics don’t have anyone that stupid in their congregations, though…

 

[Kaninchen]

What you need to understand is that the LDS Church says that one can only submit names for temple work if the people involved were born over 110 years ago, or are direct ancestors of the person submitting. If Hitler or the last Pope had their work done, it was because some not-too-bright individual submitted it against the regulations.

I’m sure the Catholics don’t have anyone that stupid in their congregations, though…

Hitler was born in 1889 and Stalin in 1879 so they’d be candidates then.