Jewish Identity: The Plausibility of a Womb Transplant...

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

It has recently been reported that successful attempts to reconnect wombs in various animals have been done. In fact, four sheep have become pregnant after having their wombs removed and then reconnected.

This is apparently is an important step towards successful womb transplants in humans. This raises some interesting questions for me concerning a Jewish identity. More specifically, it is well known that the Jewish identity of the child is dependent on the Jewish identity of the mother.

I guess my question for the Jewish audience is what would happen if a Jewish woman received the womb of a Gentile woman?

Would the child born to the Jewish woman be considered a Jew or a Gentile?

Actually, let’s move one step closer and assume this development makes it to the next stage.

What would happen if a Jewish woman received the womb (with a child in it) from a Gentile woman and gave birth to the child?

Would the child born to the Jewish woman be considered a Jew or a Gentile?
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[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Anybody? Valke? stillsmallvoice? Any jewish people who could inquire about this with their rabbis?

 

[Valke2]

It has recently been reported that successful attempts to reconnect wombs in various animals have been done. In fact, four sheep have become pregnant after having their wombs removed and then reconnected.

This is apparently is an important step towards successful womb transplants in humans. This raises some interesting questions for me concerning a Jewish identity. More specifically, it is well known that the Jewish identity of the child is dependent on the Jewish identity of the mother.

I guess my question for the Jewish audience is what would happen if a Jewish woman received the womb of a Gentile woman?

Would the child born to the Jewish woman be considered a Jew or a Gentile?

Actually, let’s move one step closer and assume this development makes it to the next stage.

What would happen if a Jewish woman received the womb (with a child in it) from a Gentile woman and gave birth to the child?

Would the child born to the Jewish woman be considered a Jew or a Gentile?
.

Obviously, there’s not a lot of precedent on this one. HOwever, I think that generally, the faith of the woman carrying the baby would control. This would be because of the fact that other than this woman (the “carrier”), there are no other people who could be labeled “Mother” under Jewish law.

An interesting link for you: beliefnet.com/frameset_offsite.asp?pageLoc=http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/cloning.html

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Obviously, there’s not a lot of precedent on this one. HOwever, I think that generally, the faith of the woman carrying the baby would control. This would be because of the fact that other than this woman (the “carrier”), there are no other people who could be labeled “Mother” under Jewish law.

An interesting link for you: beliefnet.com/frameset_offsite.asp?pageLoc=http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/cloning.html

Ok, thanks. I was just checking.

III. Status Issues Related to One Who is Cloned

A. Who is the Clonees Family

The Jewish legal tradition would, in my opinion, be very much inclined to label the gestational mother (the one who served as an incubator for this cloned individual), as the legal mother of the child, as this woman has most of the apparent indicia of motherhood (see infra) according to Jewish law. While this child bears no genetic relationship to its gestational mother, particularly when the clonee is a male, there are no other possible candidates whom Jewish law could label the mother, and thus it seems reasonable to believe that this woman would be considered the halachic mother of the child.

So if a child were conceived in Gentile woman and transplanted into Jewish woman, it appears that the child would be of Jewish descent.

Interesting.

I guess I was thinking of the practice of Mikva and how when the gentile convert rises from the water they are considered to have emerged from a Jewish womb.

 

[Valke2]

Ok, thanks. I was just checking.

So if a child were conceived in Gentile woman and transplanted into Jewish woman, it appears that the child would be of Jewish descent.

Interesting.

I guess I was thinking of the practice of Mikva and how when the gentile convert rises from the water they are considered to have emerged from a Jewish womb.

well, if the child is conceived in the Gentile woman and then removed and placed in the Jewish woman, it might be considered gentile. In that case, you have a biological mother that conceived and then had the baby/fetus removed. THere would then be required a small cermony to “convert” the baby.

This is as opposed to when the fetus is concevied outside the womb (Petri dish) and then implanted in a Jewish woman. IN that case the baby would be Jewish, even if the egg doner was not.

 

[Kaninchen]

I would expect that the situation would be similar to adopting a non-Jewish baby (conversion).

The possibilities for nitpicking wars between different Beth Din (the Jewish courts that make determinations on all sorts of aspects of Jewish life, including conversion and Jewish status) could be endless!

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

well, if the child is conceived in the Gentile woman and then removed and placed in the Jewish woman, it might be considered gentile. In that case, you have a biological mother that conceived and then had the baby/fetus removed. THere would then be required a small cermony to “convert” the baby.

This is as opposed to when the fetus is concevied outside the womb (Petri dish) and then implanted in a Jewish woman. IN that case the baby would be Jewish, even if the egg doner was not.

I didn’t think that conception mattered in Jewish Law. After all (and it seems unlikely in this situation), the child can be aborted before they are born, regardless of whether it is a Jew or Gentile father.

I thought the key point was whether the child was born to a Jewish woman or not?

Is it the conception within a Jewish woman that matters, or whether the child was born of a Jewish woman that matters?

 

[Valke2]

I didn’t think that conception mattered in Jewish Law. After all (and it seems unlikely in this situation), the child can be aborted before they are born, regardless of whether it is a Jew or Gentile father.

I thought the key point was whether the child was born to a Jewish woman or not?

Is it the conception that matters, or whether she was born of a Jewish woman or not that matters?

If the child is concieved and then removed from the woman, it is “born”, so that I think once the removal occurs, the mother can be determined. SO if a gentile women conceives and then transplants the fetus to a jewish woman, the gentile women would, I think, be the biological mother under Jewish law and the baby would have to go through a conversion or some public cermony.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

If the child is concieved and then removed from the woman, it is “born”, so that I think once the removal occurs, the mother can be determined. SO if a gentile women conceives and then transplants the fetus to a jewish woman, the gentile women would, I think, be the biological mother under Jewish law and the baby would have to go through a conversion or some public cermony.

But the child has not been born since it has not emerged from the womb yet. The child in the womb would be transplanted together in this situaiton.

 

[Valke2]

Good point. So then a determination by the rabbis will have to be made as to which rule to follow. THe simplest thing to do, IMO, would be to just convert the baby to be safe. But Jews don’t always do the simplest thing.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Good point. So then a determination by the rabbis will have to be made as to which rule to follow. THe simplest thing to do, IMO, would be to just convert the baby to be safe. But Jews don’t always do the simplest thing.

I realize that this has not even been done yet-- so it’s just specualtion on my part. But it would be interesting to see what decision is made if this would ever come about.

 

[jssaxon]

Is this a serious question?

I’ve been informed that, if a Jewish couple adopts a gentile woman’s baby, the baby is not automatically Jewish and has to go through a baptism of sorts.

The whole thing sounds incredibly legalistic to me.

 

[Valke2]

Is this a serious question?

I’ve been informed that, if a Jewish couple adopts a gentile woman’s baby, the baby is not automatically Jewish and has to go through a baptism of sorts.

The whole thing sounds incredibly legalistic to me.

What’s wrong with legalistic? Your essentially correct about adoption. What is done depends somewhat on the age of the child.

 

[Kaninchen]

The whole thing sounds incredibly legalistic to me.

Hey, legalistic is what we do - it’s all part of the fun of being Jewish.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Is this a serious question?

I’ve been informed that, if a Jewish couple adopts a gentile woman’s baby, the baby is not automatically Jewish and has to go through a baptism of sorts.

The whole thing sounds incredibly legalistic to me.

I just thought it was in interesting question since the Mikva is beleived to be akin to emerging from the Jewish woman-- like emerging from a womb of a Jewish woman.

Technically, if this were the case, then it seems to me that a gentile womb would produce a gentile child according to Jewish law-- even if born of a Jewish woman. However, it gets more interesting if a Jewish woman conceived and then had the womb and child transplanted to a gentile woman. In this case, ironically, it may be that the gentile woman could give birth to a Jewish child and them still not be considered a Jewish child because they were born of a gentile woman.

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I really don’t know how it all works. But I think situations like this do cause some to reflect more deeply about the law in general-- and I respect that.

I Just found it interesting as a “thought experiment” regarding Jewish law. It’s not intended as a slam. I’m honestly curious how this would work if such as situation would happen.

By the way, it hasn’t happened yet, so there may be no need to even deliberate on this topic.