J
jam070406
Guest
What does it mean then?
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J
jam070406
Guest
What does this mean? Is the old covenant still a valid means of salvation?
C
Credo_ergo_sum
Guest
The Jews are neither Israel nor the chosen people. This is what St. Justin Martyr said about it in the 2nd century in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew:
“For the true spiritual Israel … are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ.”
and
"“We do not trust through Moses or through the law” [because there is] “a final law, and a covenant, the chiefest of all, which it is now incumbent on all men to observe,” and “law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one.”
M
mercytruth
Guest
We know what St.Paul the apostle said:
Romans 11:25-32
Douay-Rheims 1899
** For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.
And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers.
For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.
For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief;
So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.**
We also know what God said to Abraham regarding the descendants of Ishmael:
**And when Sara had seen the son of Agar the Egyptian playing with Isaac her son, she said to Abraham:
Cast out this bondwoman, and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac.
Abraham took this grievously for his son.
And God said to him: Let it not seem grievous to thee for the boy, and for thy bondwoman: in all that Sara hath said to thee, hearken to her voice: for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
But I will make the son also of the bondwoman a great nation, because he is thy seed.**
Jews and Muslims who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are beloved of God for Abraham’s sake, and God will not break His word regarding His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I think the catechism of the Catholic Church is reflecting that understanding from God’s sacred scriptures.
God’s peace.
Micah.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
The belief that there are multiple paths to salvation is heresy.
It once was in the Catholic Church anyway, not sure if it still is. Certainly still is in the other Apostolic Churches.
meltzerboy
New member
I think the difference is that the Church believes that it is not by means of practicing Islam that Muslims may be saved but rather through the Church and, in particular, Jesus. Even though Muslims do not have the advantage of the Sacraments of the Church and the fullness of truth that the Church provides, Jesus may choose to save them since they too believe in the one Abrahamic G-d. They are thus part of G-d’s plan of salvation. I suppose similar reasoning would apply to the Jews, who are in addition spoken of as the tree onto which the branch of Christianity has been grafted since the Law was originally given to them through the prophets. Again, according to the Church, it is not Judaism or the Torah which saves the Jews, but Jesus and His Church.
From the Jewish perspective, the notion of salvation or redemption takes on a different meaning. The Torah (Pentateuch) is said to be a tree of life for those who cling to her, but that tree of life is not so much applied to salvation in an afterlife, but instead a moral way of living in keeping with G-d’s will. For Judaism, the afterlife is not the goal. Rather, the redemptive goal is leading a moral and therefore a good life in the here and now by “repairing” the world. We trust, however, that G-d will be merciful and just to all His children in the world to come.
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Lochias
Guest
A succinct view of the RCC’s views on the matter, and interesting information on the Jewish faith that I did not know. Thanks for this post.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
But the view that God may save them regardless doesn’t quite work, since the same belief is extended to other religions, and even Atheism - God may grant salvation to whomever he pleases for whatever reason he pleases.
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, that is of course true; G-d is not even bound by the Sacraments according to the Church. However, there is particular mention made of Muslims and Jews linked to Christians in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, whereas neither other religions nor atheism is specifically singled out. Individual conscience based on the natural law which is written on the hearts of mankind, as well as the concept of invincible ignorance, are discussed; but non-Abrahamic faiths are not.
J
jam070406
Guest
Actually, this one is better.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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jam070406
Guest
The Church views anything good that may come from practice of other religions as a preparation for the Gospel. It also distinguishes between belief and Faith. Faith being a free gift to those open to Truth and trusting in God, which results in belief in the Trinity.
Simply following a religion will not bring one to Truth and in fact can be a hinderance.
“For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which “makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently”, 21 then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute. 22 This distinction is not always borne in mind in current theological reflection. Thus, theological faith (the acceptance of the truth revealed by the One and Triune God) is often identified with belief in other religions, which is religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself. This is one of the reasons why the differences between Christianity and the other religions tend to be reduced at times to the point of disappearance. 8.”
“It is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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jam070406
Guest
Who said there was, besides you? One gives a more full understanding instead of a few paragraphs with a partial understanding.
J
jam070406
Guest
It’s disturbing that some Catholics are afraid to boldly profess what you just did.
J
jam070406
Guest
Oh I see, so you WEREN’T asserting that I was setting one text against the other?
The post was not about centuries of relations.
It was about what the Church teaches about salvation.
Because the Church acknowledges that relations need to be better does not suddenly result in a belief of universal salvation.
The post was not about centuries of relations.
It was about what the Church teaches about salvation.
Because the Church acknowledges that relations need to be better does not suddenly result in a belief of universal salvation.
J
jam070406
Guest
Didn’t say any Christian on this thread did.
But the ambiguities and not presenting the full picture can lead lurkers to misunderstand what the Church actually Teaches. We must present the fullness of Faith, in Truth.
But the ambiguities and not presenting the full picture can lead lurkers to misunderstand what the Church actually Teaches. We must present the fullness of Faith, in Truth.
C
chosen_people
Guest
First: He isn’t a Jewish leader, he is a Knesset member of a peripheral political party that is not part of the Israeli government.
Second: He has been censured by the Chairman of the Knesset and will be brought before the ethics committee of the Knesset for a hearing.
Third: The act he committed is a criminal offense in Israel and if he did not have parliamentary immunity he would be liable to criminal charges.
Fourth: As a Jew, an Israeli and a Jurist, I cannot express deeply enough my disgust with this despicable act. Except for the most extremist elements, that I assure you, is the view shared by all Israelis.
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Lochias
Guest
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it’s appreciated.
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Bakmoon
Guest
This news makes me sad. It is always a sad thing to see people do things in a spirit of anger and hatred. I will never understand why people do this kind of thing. It’s pointless. May his anger be stilled and his heart find peace.
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Tonga
Guest
So you base your opinion of a religion and of Jews on the action of a single person?
Makes sense to me, I guess.
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504Katrin
Guest
on a side note, kindof an audacity to send our Christian bible to a Jewish faithful, no?
What would have my reaction looked like. I wouldn’t have torn the scripture, but I probably would have ranted an raved about that very special “present”
What would have my reaction looked like. I wouldn’t have torn the scripture, but I probably would have ranted an raved about that very special “present”
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