Jewish Miracles

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**1 John 2

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father**; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 
**1 John 2

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father**; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Okay so according to your scriptures Jews are liars and the anti-Christ and reject God. On the other hand we see that the Jews of all the ancient peoples are the only ones to still exist as a people and nation, this despite persecutions against them for being Jews. We see that three years after a third of the Jewish people were murdered in the Shoah the Jews regain their independence over their homeland, despite being invaded by five armies, despite receiving no aid or help and even having arms embargoes against them. We see that the Jewish state which sits on barely one per cent of the land in the middle east, which is surrounded by a billion enemies, not only survives but is deemed by its enemies to be so strong as to be the “aggressor”. We see that the Jews who were only allowed to begin to be integrated into general western society in the last two hundred years, who make up a mere two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population, not only are seen and heard but contribute to society at such a vastly disproportional rate that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”.

So given your belief that your scriptures regard the Jews as liars and the anti-Christ and people who have rejected God- how can we explain this seemingly impossible phenomenon of the Jew? This is basically what the OP was asking. If the Jews are liars and the anti-Christ and have rejected God - how can it be that their adherents enjoy blessings of any kind, let alone miracles?

Now if I were a Christian I think I could presume one of three possibilities:

The first would be to use the Christian concept of the Devil and postulate that the Jews as the anti-Christ and liars and as people who reject God, receive help from those forces opposing God - as the signs of the Westboro Baptist Church proclaim “God hates the Jews”

The second possibility is to posit that though the Jews are liars and the anti-Christ and reject God- God for his part, for some reason, doesn’t hold this against them and is willing to also let them share in His blessings.

Now the third possibility is that God, despite the Jews being liars and the anti-Christ and rejecting God, actually has a special relationship with the Jewish people (something about an eternal covenant) and has not only preserved them for well over three thousand years but has actually bestowed His blessings upon them.

I do not, of course, personally believe in the validity of your scriptures or the passage about the Jews you have quoted. I would however ask that you let me bring a quote from my scriptures:

Genesis Chapter 12 בְּרֵאשִׁית

ג וַאֲבָרְכָה, מְבָרְכֶיךָ, וּמְקַלֶּלְךָ, אָאֹר; וְנִבְרְכוּ בְךָ, כֹּל מִשְׁפְּחֹת הָאֲדָמָה.
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’
 
Christians think God has a special relationship with everyone who seek him.

This includes Jews who do, and Jews who don’t accept Jesus as the Messiah.

If God intervenes to help one of the latter, then this is no less a great thing, and should be embraced when validated.
 
Below are a couple of miracles included in both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, regarding the temple gate, the western light, and the crimson thread. They were supposed to have occurred for 40 years, from around the time of Christ C 30AD to about 70AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. What do you make of them? I lifted the quote off another web site.

"There is extraordinary evidence in the Jewish Talmud that something incredibly miraculous happened approximately 40 years before the Jewish Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

The Jewish Talmud actually records four amazing miracles that all began about 40 years before the Temple was finally destroyed.

What these miracles may represent is an extraordinary message from God that something earth shatteringly significant did indeed occur around the time of 30 A.D.

In the centuries that followed the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., Jewish rabbis worked to compile two records of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, customs, and history.

The first was compiled in the land of Palestine and became known as the Jerusalem Talmud. The second was compiled in the land of Babylon and was known as the Babylonian Talmud. Both the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud contain a description of these four extraordinary miracles.

First, here is the description of these miracles that we find in the Jerusalem Talmud:

“Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open” (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157).

Secondly, here is the description of these miracles that we find in the Babylonian Talmud:

“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” (Soncino version, Yoma 39b)."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Christianity would claim the Jews had killed their Messiah around 30AD, and as a result the Rabbis proclaimed God “will not forgive”, and that the gate temple “frightened” them.

What conclusion do Jews make of these records in their own Talmuds?

They are miracles. Incidentally I could also quote a Christian example of deliverance from 9/11 and some other catastrophe. The problem with these deliverance stories is that ignore all the people who weren’t “delivered”, including Christians and Jews.
 
Christianity holds the Messiah has come.

Judaism holds he has not.

Sounds mutually exclusive to me.
for the Christians to believe that, the Jews had to receive and pass on the prophecy of the Messiah. Everything in Christianity is built on the foundation of the Jewish law and prophets. To reject that is in fact one of the more damaging Christian heresies. Before you discard the Old Testament in its entirety read it, especially the books recounting the history of the Jewish people such as Exodus, and consider the countless miracles wrought for them by God.
 
Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messaiah

Catholics don’t recognize sacraments without apostolic succession

Baptists don’t recognize each other in the liquore store.

😃
 
“Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open” (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157).

Secondly, here is the description of these miracles that we find in the Babylonian Talmud:

“Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves” (Soncino version, Yoma 39b)."

What conclusion do Jews make of these records in their own Talmuds?
I will try to be brief and concise. I will fail.

The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the high priest’s right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white . . . ."

Christians will often say that this started the year Jesus was crucified, 30 CE, and cite this as proof that since animal sacrifices could not attone for sins, the wool not turning white proved our sins were not forgiven. And they conclude this is a result of Jews rejecting Jesus as God.

The above argument relies on a Jewish text – our Talmud. So I think it is only fair that it be addressed from a Jewish perspective.

It is a complete leap of faith argue Jesus as a reson for the thread not changing colors and requires first taking a christian belief and attaching it to a Jewish text. Such a conclusion is no more believable than a more jewish belief that the reason the scarlet strip of wool did not turn white was due to the fact that masses of wayward Jews had followed the false messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. (IMO, both explanations are incorrect.)

Also, we believe animal sacrifices will resume when the Temple is rebuilt. Much of the book of Eziekal deals with this. I understand christians would reject this argument based on their own doctrine.

Finally, the portion of the Talmud that deals with this Yom Kippur. Page 39a is talks about Israel’s declining spiritual condition during the Second Temple period. Things like the thread changing color are an indicator of the spritual condition. When it’s good, miracles happen (red to white). When it’s not so good, then red to… red.

The talmudic discussion starts with the miraculous events that occurred during the forty years when Shimon HaTzaddik was high pries. It then relates how the appearance of these miracles progressively diminished after he died.

Shimon HaTzaddik was a great man. He’s famous for: “The world exists on three things: the Torah, divine worship, and acts of kindness.”

After he died, we failed to maintain the spiritual heights achieved during Shimon HaTzaddik’s lifetime. Thus the Talmud’s assertion that after the death of Shimon HaTzaddik the occurrence of these miracles became sporadic; there were some years when these miraculous signs occurred, and there were other years when they did not. The low point being the last 40 years of the second Temple period.

We don’t need to guess as to what we Jews did during those last 40 years that stopped the events altogether. The Talmud tells us.

The big sin of Israel was hatred for each other. which we believe was the reason for the Second Temple’s desturction. There was an increase of violence against each other. The Sanhedrin didn’t even bother to impose capital punishment for murder because it was so prevelant.

Oppressing the poor and doing violence to the weak is enough to warrant the destruction of our Temple. Isaiah compares Israel to the people to Sodom and Gomorrah. He says if you are going to treat your neighbor so poorly, then God’s not interested in how you keep the Sabbath. You can’t keep a Sabbath holy if you’re going to treat people like garbage. That’s a central message of Isaiah and that’s the central reason why the miracles in the Temple ceased.
 
I believe scripture points out that the Jewish people will entirely convert and be saved when the nation recognizes that when Christ came he really was the messia.

This is prophetic and I believe that God has a hand in shaping the world in certain ways for his plans to come about. I believe he does this shaping and work through people. I do believe supernatural things have and are ocurring for Israel for these reasons stated above.

I have not been able to reconcile Jewish salvation due to the verse above and many others.

After death, salvation is only wrought through Christ. I do not see a special provision in place for Christ to apply to a group of people who deny him as the Lord and their messiah.
 
I have not been able to reconcile Jewish salvation due to the verse above and many others.

After death, salvation is only wrought through Christ. I do not see a special provision in place for Christ to apply to a group of people who deny him as the Lord and their messiah.
Catechism 839 sez:

"The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

…and…

"Outside the Church there is no salvation

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM#2A4

Ergo, the Jewish people, who plainly do not “know” that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, as they deny the very divinity of Christ, are not, therefore, locked out of the gates of Heaven. In fact, I’ll bet we’ll be surprised who we meet in Heaven (provided we get there, that is).
 
**1 John 2

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father**; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
I will simply remind you of what Paul in regards to the Jews being God’s chosen…the gift and the call of God are IRREVOCABLE! (ROM 12:28-29)
In your passage John is speaking about those who knew Christ and rejected him. This is not true of most Jews even during the time of Christ.

I don’t pretend to understand the mystery of which Paul speaks, but accept it, he said that the Jews are “hardened” until the full number of gentiles have come in…at which time all Israel will be saved…so I rely on the word of God, the teaching of the Church and my own understanding which all three testify that the Jews are indeed God’s chosen.
 
I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can’t You choose someone else?
Reb Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof
 
Hello Splinker,

i do not wish to get into an arguement and do not question the right for others to interpret those events recorded in the Jewish writings up to the end of the second temple.

As a Christian, the perspective would be that the Jewish sacrifices, as far as we can calculate, were ‘not accepted by God’ around the year of Jesus crucifixtion and this continued annually not to be accepted for the next 40 years up to the final destruction of the second temple in which no more sacrifices could be offerred for the forgiveness of sins.

Since this rejection of sins being forgiven was without precedent (40 years in a row) and ended in the complete destruction of the Temple, i think it is fair to say there must have been something considered of extreme importance by God, without parallel, to have caused this to occur.

Now, the Jewish Christian teaching of Jesus at the last supper was of a New Covenant, with His own blood being pured out for the forgiveness of sins, and this sits directly against, or at least in competition with the then existing 2nd Temple sacrificial forgiveness of sins. The idea of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice by which all people are to now be put right with God is similarly in opposition to the 2nd Temple model. And of course those Christian teachings are the earliest attested to in the Christian Scriptures using Biblical Criticism.

It would obviously seem that as the sins were not forgiven by God at the Temple, year after year, the Jewish Christian population must have necessarily become more and more confident and thus gained more and more Jewish adherants to their cause.

I would have thought that God accepting the sin sacrifice at the Temple just once in those 40 years would have dealt a great blow to these “Christians” and given great solace and confidence instead to the non Christian Jews of the time.

Yet God decided to continue this practice and then eventually let the 2nd Temple be destroyed so as to never (up to now) be used again as the forgiveness of sins for the Jewish people.

From a Jewish Christian perspective, would not God surely know that his refusal to forgive sins at the Temple was playing directly into the Christian hands, and year after year make their case stronger and stronger ?

I would have thought that it could easily be interpreted by Jews of the time that something indeed had changed with the Temple sacrifices and thus God’s actions could be said to have encouraged a move away from 2nd Temple Judaism until there was no choice but to abandon it in 70 A.D.

Why did Gods actions, in the most public interface between God and His Jewish people, and unparalled in 2nd Temple Judaism, give Christians the support for their “New Covenant” ?

Why did God support, or could easily be interpreted to support, the Christian cause ?
Surely He would have known that His actions did support their cause, and He would have known what the outcome of such support would mean for the future ?

Just forgiving sins once in those 40 years at the Temple sacrifice would have sent a very different but still powerful message to His Jewish people.

Again, i respect your right to view it otherwise, for i’m sure you’re own reasoned arguements. I just wanted to express the thoughts from a (mine) Christian perspective.

Thanks.
 
I will try to be brief and concise. I will fail.

The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the high priest’s right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white . . . ."

Christians will often say that this started the year Jesus was crucified, 30 CE, and cite this as proof that since animal sacrifices could not attone for sins, the wool not turning white proved our sins were not forgiven. And they conclude this is a result of Jews rejecting Jesus as God.

The above argument relies on a Jewish text – our Talmud. So I think it is only fair that it be addressed from a Jewish perspective.

It is a complete leap of faith argue Jesus as a reson for the thread not changing colors and requires first taking a christian belief and attaching it to a Jewish text. Such a conclusion is no more believable than a more jewish belief that the reason the scarlet strip of wool did not turn white was due to the fact that masses of wayward Jews had followed the false messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. (IMO, both explanations are incorrect.)

Also, we believe animal sacrifices will resume when the Temple is rebuilt. Much of the book of Eziekal deals with this. I understand christians would reject this argument based on their own doctrine.

Finally, the portion of the Talmud that deals with this Yom Kippur. Page 39a is talks about Israel’s declining spiritual condition during the Second Temple period. Things like the thread changing color are an indicator of the spritual condition. When it’s good, miracles happen (red to white). When it’s not so good, then red to… red.

The talmudic discussion starts with the miraculous events that occurred during the forty years when Shimon HaTzaddik was high pries. It then relates how the appearance of these miracles progressively diminished after he died.

Shimon HaTzaddik was a great man. He’s famous for: “The world exists on three things: the Torah, divine worship, and acts of kindness.”

After he died, we failed to maintain the spiritual heights achieved during Shimon HaTzaddik’s lifetime. Thus the Talmud’s assertion that after the death of Shimon HaTzaddik the occurrence of these miracles became sporadic; there were some years when these miraculous signs occurred, and there were other years when they did not. The low point being the last 40 years of the second Temple period.

We don’t need to guess as to what we Jews did during those last 40 years that stopped the events altogether. The Talmud tells us.

The big sin of Israel was hatred for each other. which we believe was the reason for the Second Temple’s desturction. There was an increase of violence against each other. The Sanhedrin didn’t even bother to impose capital punishment for murder because it was so prevelant.

Oppressing the poor and doing violence to the weak is enough to warrant the destruction of our Temple. Isaiah compares Israel to the people to Sodom and Gomorrah. He says if you are going to treat your neighbor so poorly, then God’s not interested in how you keep the Sabbath. You can’t keep a Sabbath holy if you’re going to treat people like garbage. That’s a central message of Isaiah and that’s the central reason why the miracles in the Temple ceased.
With all due respect, your explanation stretches credibility. The 40 years is pretty specific. There were many incidents of Jews mistreating other Jews in Biblical history, but not once was there such a clear and sustained miraculous warning.

But we’ll leave it for the moment.

What do you make of the Marian warnings in Catholicism, Orthodox and Coptic Church circles? Mary, as you know, was Christ’s mother, and we have what might be called miraculous proof she’s been turning up with messages. At Fatima in 1917 for example, the sun danced on the 13th October and the ground and clothes dried very rapidly after heavy rain. There were around 70,000 witnesses, including atheists, many of whom were quite frightened. The only reason most of them were there, including the sceptics, was that the 3 children who were the visionaries, claimed she would perform a miracle on the 13th October. So 70,000 people made the trip to Fatima on that particular day.

They weren’t disappointed. Amongst the warnings were that if mankind did not improve itself, there would be a worse war than the one that was taking place right then. This happened as you would be well aware, and it became World War II, with the attendant holocaust. So what we had was the Mother of Christ turning up with a warning, and since she is also a Jew, what she had was to become of particular import to Jews. But of course they wouldn’t have listened, since to them Christ was of no import.

What do you make of that miracle?
 
I have the utmost respect for Jews, and this was a very nice story. However, if Christianity is false, how do you explain all of this?

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/engl_mir.htm
The central point I was trying to make is that if you have two religions and they both claim to be correct how do you know which is true? One way of evaluting independently from what there scriptures say is through anecdotal evidence like miracles. The reasoning goes that if God is on my side he will intervene and if the intervention is strong enough it will manfiest itself as miracles. If one person from one religion experiences what he interprets as “miracles” is that enough of a justification for his faith?

While i used Jewish “Miracles” as a starting point I could easily reverse the roles and look at all the “miracles” performed in the name of Christianity. So should miracles be a way of deciding which religion to follow?
 
With all due respect, your explanation stretches credibility. The 40 years is pretty specific. There were many incidents of Jews mistreating other Jews in Biblical history, but not once was there such a clear and sustained miraculous warning.
Well, that’s not really true. And keep in mind that the “miraclous warning” you are referring to is a lack of miracles. I can’t see how my explanation stretches credibility any more than the explanation that miracles stopped when Jesus died. without faith, that explanation sounds completely unrealistic.
What do you make of the Marian warnings in Catholicism, Orthodox and Coptic Church circles?
This seems to be the subject for another thread. I don’t believe the occurances at Fatima were miraclous, as I’m sure you could guess. And it wasn’t the Jews not listening to Mary at Fatima that caused the holocaust.
 
While i used Jewish “Miracles” as a starting point I could easily reverse the roles and look at all the “miracles” performed in the name of Christianity. So should miracles be a way of deciding which religion to follow?
Miracles are not a reliable yardstick. If they were, then I presume we’d have only one religion. Jews can point to the fact that at Sinai God revealed Himself to the nation, and that the same people who witnessed this, and witnessed the parting of the sea of reeds and the 10 plagues and the manna from heaven, complained to Moses and doubted God.

Christians can point to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the casting out of demons, walking on water, etc., and lament that even those who witnessed these miracles did not all follow him.

Miracles are no replacement for faith. And faith is found in both Judaism and Christianity. I don’t see how you can arrive at an objective conclusion as to which faith is “truer.”
 
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