Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah

[CutlerB]

I’m really not well acquainted with modern-day Judaism, but I came across four points Wikipedia lists as Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah.

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).

What is a Catholic to reply? I can think of some answers to 1 and 2, but the other two are kind of difficult.

My answers to the first two points would be these:

1. Jesus built the Church, the Third Temple if you will. A spiritual fulfillment, not a building. (But it does sound sort of contrived, since that’s really not the first thought when reading the text)
2. Israel is the spiritual fulfilment in the Catholic Church, a universal Israel.

 

[sirach2v4]

I’m not sure if you’re starting at the right point.

I’ve read a couple thousand pages of Jewish commentaries (making me no expert, by any means) and what the Jews have missed is the spiritual meaning of “their” own readings.

Judaism was supposed to be, itself, the focus of all nations in the world. But, it is unworkable, as modern Jewish existence demonstrates. All the Jews in the world cannot go to Jerusalem up to the Temple three times a year. It’s physically impossible for even the Jews to do this, much less if all the people in the world converted to Judaism.

I believe it is the prophecy of Joel that God says he will establish a new covenant. Well, where is it? There was supposed to be a greater prophet than Moses? Where is he (if not Jesus Christ)?

The consensus among Jews long ago was that prophecy had ended. Well, that contradicts Moses statement at the end of Deuteronomy that a greater prophet than he was going to come. Modern Jews have spiritualized that prophecy, while belittling Christianity as having, itself, spiritualized the OT prophecies. Go figure.

Jewish exegesis has walled off the entire subject of allegorical exegesis of scripture, not so much because of the inherent difficulties of allegorical exegesis, but because AE is what Christians have done (and indeed the NT itself does).

Jewish scholars avoid discussing the verse in the psalms that talks about some infant that was born in sin – because that sounds too much like ye olde Christian doctrine of original sin.

The strategy of Jewish exegesis of scripture is very selective and actively anti-Christian – today, as it was in Jesus’ time. Even the Catholic Church advocates the importance of tradition, but just sacred tradition, not a self-serving tradition merely focused on preserving itself.

 

[cjforJesus]

When Jesus returns all this will be revealed. The Jews will finally understand that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

The Messianic era they are awaiting will only be realized with the destruction of this system.

As Mary said at Akita,“Fire will fall from the sky, wiping out a great part of humanity.”

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m really not well acquainted with modern-day Judaism, but I came across four points Wikipedia lists as Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah.

What is a Catholic to reply? I can think of some answers to 1 and 2, but the other two are kind of difficult.

My answers to the first two points would be these:

1. Jesus built the Church, the Third Temple if you will. A spiritual fulfillment, not a building. (But it does sound sort of contrived, since that’s really not the first thought when reading the text)
2. Israel is the spiritual fulfilment in the Catholic Church, a universal Israel.

This is, of course, a complex topic that has produced many threads here on CAF, some of them rather lengthy - unfortunately, much of that length comes from people talking ‘at’ one another.

Perhaps the main reason we tend to do a lot of talking ‘at’ one another is that Christian posters make all sorts of presumptions about Judaism and end up talking about a Judaism they want to be talking about rather than Judaism as it was/is - centrally, this tends to revolve around an idea that ‘Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus’ and that all that is needed is to find some kind of key formula of argument/approach/‘evidence’ and we’ll all see the ‘truth’.

The problem with this kind of approach is that ‘Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus.’ The two religions are very, very different with very different sets of assumptions and very different foci - this means that fairly often there are not Christian answers to Jewish questions or Jewish answers to Christian questions because the ideas on which the questions/answers are based have different meanings in the two religions or an idea important in one may be pretty meaningless in the other.

 

[StraitGateSheep]

I’m really not well acquainted with modern-day Judaism, but I came across four points Wikipedia lists as Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah.

What is a Catholic to reply? I can think of some answers to 1 and 2, but the other two are kind of difficult.

My answers to the first two points would be these:

1. Jesus built the Church, the Third Temple if you will. A spiritual fulfillment, not a building. (But it does sound sort of contrived, since that’s really not the first thought when reading the text)
2. Israel is the spiritual fulfilment in the Catholic Church, a universal Israel.

---

Hello my firend,

If the TRUTH was told, not too many could handle it.

It caused the death of many before.

Isa.52
[1] Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion (?);
put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: (?)
for henceforth there shall no more come into thee
the uncircumcised (?) and the unclean. (?)

The best to all.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m really not well acquainted with modern-day Judaism, but I came across four points Wikipedia lists as Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah.

What is a Catholic to reply? I can think of some answers to 1 and 2, but the other two are kind of difficult.

My answers to the first two points would be these:

1. Jesus built the Church, the Third Temple if you will. A spiritual fulfillment, not a building. (But it does sound sort of contrived, since that’s really not the first thought when reading the text)
2. Israel is the spiritual fulfilment in the Catholic Church, a universal Israel.

For pt 1) I would say Jesus is the third temple. The final sacrifice once for all. Remember he said he would destroy the temple and build it back in 3 days.

It is my understanding the Jews were looking for a more earthly messiah not a spiritual leader per se

 

[Richard_White]

In response to:

1., 2., and 4.: These are misinterpreted by the Jews to refer to thefirstcoming of the Savior, when it is really about the Second Coming, or Parousia, of Christ.

1. Jesus does fulfill this prophecy, but not in the way they expected. He did not just come to wipe out war and hatred, but through belief in Him, these will be exchanged with peace and love.

 

[sirach2v4]

This is, of course, a complex topic that has produced many threads here on CAF, some of them rather lengthy - unfortunately, much of that length comes from people talking ‘at’ one another.

Perhaps the main reason we tend to do a lot of talking ‘at’ one another is that Christian posters make all sorts of presumptions about Judaism and end up talking about a Judaism they want to be talking about rather than Judaism as it was/is - centrally, this tends to revolve around an idea that ‘Christianity is Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism is Christianity minus Jesus’ and that all that is needed is to find some kind of key formula of argument/approach/‘evidence’ and we’ll all see the ‘truth’.

The problem with this kind of approach is that ‘Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus/Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus.’ The two religions are very, very different with very different sets of assumptions and very different foci - this means that fairly often there are not Christian answers to Jewish questions or Jewish answers to Christian questions because the ideas on which the questions/answers are based have different meanings in the two religions or an idea important in one may be pretty meaningless in the other.

I can understand why you are saying this. Every person of either persuasion will see ‘truth’ that the other doesn’t see. I think the destruction of the temple and the loss of a homeland speaks volumes, painful volumes, about the end of Judaism. As an essay in The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford U Press), Christians see Christ lurking behind almost every verse of the “Hebrew” Bible. Yes, we do.

Nevertheless, one should say in this discussion that the modern position (at least) of the Catholic Church is not to condemn Jews. I feel sorry for secular Jews, but I think Catholics have a lot to learn from the devotion of observant Jews.

I have that other volume entitled something like Jewish Commentary on the New Testament, which points out two facts about St. Paul: He was insistent that gentile converts to Christianity need not be observant to the Torah. He never insisted that Jewish Christians cease their Jewish customs. The earliest Christians actually met IN the Jerusalem temple, until they were expelled.

Yes, this has all been nearly endlessly discussed.

 

[Kaninchen]

I can understand why you are saying this. Every person of either persuasion will see ‘truth’ that the other doesn’t see. I think the destruction of the temple and the loss of a homeland speaks volumes, painful volumes, about the end of Judaism. As an essay in The Jewish Study Bible (Oxford U Press), Christians see Christ lurking behind almost every verse of the “Hebrew” Bible. Yes, we do.

Nevertheless, one should say in this discussion that the modern position (at least) of the Catholic Church is not to condemn Jews. I feel sorry for secular Jews, but I think Catholics have a lot to learn from the devotion of observant Jews.

I have that other volume entitled something like Jewish Commentary on the New Testament, which points out two facts about St. Paul: He was insistent that gentile converts to Christianity need not be observant to the Torah. He never insisted that Jewish Christians cease their Jewish customs. The earliest Christians actually met IN the Jerusalem temple, until they were expelled.

Yes, this has all been nearly endlessly discussed.

I suppose it rather depends on whether people want to say something meaningful to one another or not. Talking the language ‘Christian’ to people who speak the language ‘Jewish’ (or vice-versa) may appear to be dialogue while, in reality, it’s a monologue.

 

[StraitGateSheep]

Hello,

Just a general (name removed by moderator)ut.

GOD created and GOD rules UNTIL he hands over to Messiah.

Deut.18
[18] I (Lord GOD Almighty) will raise them (Israelites) up a Prophet ( a national)
from among their brethren, like unto thee, (Moses)
and will put >> my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them (the Israelites) all that I shall command him.
[19] And it shall come to pass,
that whoever (Israelite) >> will not hearken unto my words <<
which he shall speak in my name,
I (Lord GOD Almighty) will require (demand) it of him.

John.5
[45] Do not think that I (Jesus) will accuse you to the Father: (Lord GOD Almighty)
there is one who accuses you, >> even Moses, in whom you trust.
[46] For had you (truly) believed Moses, then you would have believed me: (Jesus)
for he wrote of me. (the Prophet = Christ)
[47] But if you do not believe his writings, how shall you believe my words?

Acts.2
[36] Therefore let all the house (nation) of Israel know assuredly,
that God >> (Lord GOD Almighty)
had (previously) made that same Jesus,
whom you have crucified, both LORD >> (the Mighty God of Israel)
and (now the Lord GOD has made him) Christ.

Their God came as the precious Christ/ Messiah.

Israel had their own >> national God, from the Lord GOD Almighty,
who was totally dedicated to them.

That God was the pre-incarnated Jesus.

When they spoke about ONE God, that was Jesus.

Under Grace Jesus gave knowledge of his Father.

Christianity is with Father and Son >>>

The FULL identity of Jesus has to be revealed.

Good hope for all.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

One of the thing that stands out for me, specifically because this is a Catholic forum and not a general christian forum, is the defense of the OP’s first point regarding rebuilding the temple. The OP himself referenced that Jesus rebuilt the temple spiritually while Jon S stated that Jesus himself is the third temple. The literal description is not used, although on other matters (say whether the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ) a literal definition is used. It’s just something I found interesting.

 

[Kaninchen]

One of the thing that stands out for me, specifically because this is a Catholic forum and not a general christian forum, is the defense of the OP’s first point regarding rebuilding the temple. The OP himself referenced that Jesus rebuilt the temple spiritually while Jon S stated that Jesus himself is the third temple. The literal description is not used, although on other matters (say whether the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ) a literal definition is used. It’s just something I found interesting.

To an outsider, the whole business rather sounds like biting bits off jigsaw pieces to make them fit into a picture you want to see.