Jewish OT Law and the New Testament

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In the OT there were 5 books of the law from Moses that the Jews used called the “Pentateuch” I think… I know all the long list of the OT laws from God are in dueteronomy and so forth…my question is what oral laws did the teachers/scribes add to the scribal law that were considered a burden on people during the time when Jesus walked on earth? Can you give some examples of the laws in comparision that God gave verse what the Jews added to that were burden like the cleansing, or divorce and so forth? Also I know Jesus said it nullified the word of God with the extra man made laws, but what were those that nullified them?

And how do we as Catholics protect ourselves from being to legalistic in our practices and so forth? I know the Church is really big on rules/disciplines and so forth…how do we keep from becoming a image of how the Jews were in Jesus time? Sometimes I feel protestants say that Catholics are to “legalistic” like the Jews were…is that part of the reformation and so forth? People during the reformation time were they really legalistic as well? please clarify on these points. thank you and God bless!
 
I know the Church is really big on rules/disciplines and so forth…how do we keep from becoming a image of how the Jews were in Jesus time?
I think the 3 things that Jesus had against the Jewish leaders of his time were:
  1. They didn’t practice what they preached. (He called them whited sepulchres full of dead men’s bones, - white washed on the outside but full of corruption inside. A lot of what they did was for show).
  2. They were hard of heart and resisted the truth. They claimed to know the Scriptures, yet the Old Testament writings pointed to Jesus and they didn’t recognize him, in spite of all the miracles that he worked, and his teachings. In fact they often tried to trick him. (He said it would go harder with them at the Day of judgement than with the people of Sodom and Gommorha)
  3. They were proud, thinking themselves better than others. (The parable of the publican and the pharisee going into the Temple to pray).
So 1. We are to not just know the Faith but to live good and virtuous lives, take care of our character and our soul, because that is what God wants us to do.
2. We are to believe in Jesus and trust in Him. And not think we know better than he does. “No servant is greater than his master.”
3. We are to be humble. ie. focus on God and not on ourselves and be grateful for all that we have been given, everything we have comes from Him, and try to share it with others.
There, that’s my life task in a nutshell.
 
Also I know Jesus said it nullified the word of God with the extra man made laws, but what were those that nullified them?

Sometimes I feel protestants say that Catholics are to “legalistic” like the Jews were…is that part of the reformation and so forth? People during the reformation time were they really legalistic as well? please clarify on these points. thank you and God bless!
Jesus mentioned the one where the religious leaders would not allow people to look after their parents because the money they would have used was Korban, and needed for the Temple. I’m not sure of the Chapter and verse. And another is in Luke Chpter 20:46,47 where he speaks of them stealing money and property from widows, taking it as a religious tax.

I think the Reformation was more about abuses in the Church: the selling of indulgences, and so on, in the beginning; and also people reading the scriptures and giving it their own interpretation, and questioning the Church’s interpretation. There was a misunderstanding about some of the Church’s teachings as well. Plus the Reformers wanted to get a hold of the Church’s wealth. That happened in England and across Europe where the Kings and local Barons destroyed the monasteries, convents and church buildings and lands and helped themselves to the wealth, and made themselves rich. There was also politics involved: In England Henry VIII wished for an annulment from his first wife Catherine, so that he could have a son, and the Pope refused. Hilaire Belloc says in his book on the Reformation that the first reformers never intended to form a new Church, they intended to reform the Catholic Church, but it ended in Revolution rather than reform.
Protestants often talk about "religion and “legalism” with reference to the Catholic Church because they are looking in from the outside and often repeating what they have been taught.
Because the Mass follows a set wording doesn’t mean that people are just saying the words and not meaning the words or thinking about what they are saying, at least it shouldn’t.
 
In the OT there were 5 books of the law from Moses that the Jews used called the “Pentateuch” I think… I know all the long list of the OT laws from God are in dueteronomy and so forth…my question is what oral laws did the teachers/scribes add to the scribal law that were considered a burden on people during the time when Jesus walked on earth? Can you give some examples of the laws in comparision that God gave verse what the Jews added to that were burden like the cleansing, or divorce and so forth? Also I know Jesus said it nullified the word of God with the extra man made laws, but what were those that nullified them?

And how do we as Catholics protect ourselves from being to legalistic in our practices and so forth? I know the Church is really big on rules/disciplines and so forth…how do we keep from becoming a image of how the Jews were in Jesus time? Sometimes I feel protestants say that Catholics are to “legalistic” like the Jews were…is that part of the reformation and so forth? People during the reformation time were they really legalistic as well? please clarify on these points. thank you and God bless!
One of the laws they made was to give the temple the proceeds of their inheritance so as to not let the childrens riches take care of the parents in their old age. When doing this, they still had control of the wealth but it never went to take care of the elders in their old age. This was a travesty to Jesus and temple leaders went along with this. There was a name for this law that escapes me right now.

They also had rules on washing before meals and other things that they put ahead of more important laws that were about charity and compassion.
 
Simple:

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

By standing fast, and holding on to the traditions of God we can avoid falling into this trap. Men discard the traditions of God and claim we don’t need them, then fill the hole left over with their own traditions.

What traditions are God’s? The Sacraments.
 
Simple:

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

By standing fast, and holding on to the traditions of God we can avoid falling into this trap. Men discard the traditions of God and claim we don’t need them, then fill the hole left over with their own traditions.

What traditions are God’s? The Sacraments.
Great wisdom, and very true… if only it were that simple in practice by the masses.

In my conversations with “average” American Catholics (which unfortunately–based on the stats–means those who attend mass semi-frequently and are poorly catechized) and hearing the types of questions that frequently come up in the call-in shows on Relevant Radio (like “Go Ask Your Father”), it seems the majority of “Catholics” think the real focus of being a Catholic is how well you follow the rules for the rules’ sake.

Obviously this is slowly changing–and MUST change–given the drop in numbers of faithful practicing “Western” Catholics (U.S, Europe…)— it seems to be WAY TOO SLOW, unfortunately… I’m not sure how it’s going in other continents…

The question is: what caused such a major departure from the teaching of the true meaning of the Good News? Where did the selection of the Church leadership (bishops/priests) go wrong, and why was it allowed to happen to such a drastic degree? Top business/organizational leadership teachers say, “everything rises and falls on leadership”. Does that same philosophy apply to our Church leadership?

It seems to me that in the Church’s desire to stay relevant to the cultures it attempted to evangelize, the power of the Gospel was diluted and distorted by trying to stay sensitive to ongoing cultural practices (one example is the Mexican culture’s “day of the dead” tradition).

From a human nature perspective, practicing the rules and laws of a religious system is so much easier than allowing yourself to undergo life-altering conversion (which to some degree is what is expected to happen to every new believer).

That is why the Holy Spirit insisted in so many New Testament writings to distinguish ourselves not by our ability to keep laws/rules, but by our loving, godly, holy conduct and HEARTFELT worship and love of God & neighbor. Scripture CLEARLY points to this as the way to be saved (so many examples in all the Gospels & Epistles), and as the deposit of the faith reiterates… yet, why is it so lacking in fervent practice/teaching and example of so many of our bishops/priests?

Sometimes I dream that God could do a Church leadership cleansing-- the same way many Americans hope for a political cleansing… no offense to the many good bishops/priests!

Hopefully something made sense in all this rambling…
 
The question is: what caused such a major departure from the teaching of the true meaning of the Good News? Where did the selection of the Church leadership (bishops/priests) go wrong, and why was it allowed to happen to such a drastic degree? Top business/organizational leadership teachers say, “everything rises and falls on leadership”. Does that same philosophy apply to our Church leadership?

It seems to me that in the Church’s desire to stay relevant to the cultures it attempted to evangelize, the power of the Gospel was diluted and distorted by trying to stay sensitive to ongoing cultural practices (one example is the Mexican culture’s “day of the dead” tradition).

From a human nature perspective, practicing the rules and laws of a religious system is so much easier than allowing yourself to undergo life-altering conversion (which to some degree is what is expected to happen to every new believer).

That is why the Holy Spirit insisted in so many New Testament writings to distinguish ourselves not by our ability to keep laws/rules, but by our loving, godly, holy conduct and HEARTFELT worship and love of God & neighbor. Scripture CLEARLY points to this as the way to be saved (so many examples in all the Gospels & Epistles), and as the deposit of the faith reiterates… yet, why is it so lacking in fervent practice/teaching and example of so many of our bishops/priests?

Sometimes I dream that God could do a Church leadership cleansing-- the same way many Americans hope for a political cleansing… no offense to the many good bishops/priests!

Hopefully something made sense in all this rambling…
I don’t know how old you are New Day but I have a slightly different perspective. I don’t think it is a choice between keeping laws and rules, and the heartfelt worship etc.
When the young man asked Jesus what must he do to gain eternal life, Jesus replied: “Keep the Commandments” and when the young man said he had done that since his youth, Jesus told him that there was one thing lacking: “Sell everything you have and come follow me.” So it is really both/and: or as the Church says: evangelization and catechesis.
When I was in school we learned our faith from the penny catechism.
Question 1: Who made you?
Answer: God made me.
Question 2: Why did God make you? Answer: God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him forever in the next.
And so on. They were quick easy answers to remember, all through the Creed, the Sacraments, the Ten Commandments, the Commandments of the Church, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Spiritual and Corporal works of mercy, 4 Cardinal Virtues etc. etc. Including the four last things.
They stayed with you for a lifetime and were learned at an age when children love to learn facts, and when it is easy for them to remember and recite such things. We were also taught by nuns and lay teachers who believed what they were teaching and who practiced the faith. We also knew that they cared about us and had our best interests at heart, they were good people.
By contrast when my children were in school they had a much wordier “workbook”, and they were not required to learn anything by heart. (Learning by heart was frowned on). Modern theology stressed a loving God, in fact that was practically all they heard. The possibility of Hell was never mentioned.
The modern answer to Question 2 above would be: God made me because he loves me.
That was missing from the first version and should have been there.
But look what was missing from the modern version - any need for a response from them towards God. As if children would naturally respond to a loving God. Any parent knows that children do not naturally respond to love in the sense that they realize it requires something in return. Some children get it, but most have to be taught, because they can be lazy, selfish, defiant etc etc.
God became a permissive parent, loving us no matter what we did. And in a sense that is true we can never exhaust the love of God. But that doesn’t mean there are no consequences to bad behaviour, or that he doesn’t expect us to use our talents in his service whatever our vocation in life. (Vocation was another word that was dropped; years ago teaching was also considered a vocation).
We had the permissive 60’s; people rebelled against authority, including the authority of the Catholic Church. Vatican II was often misinterpreted, throwing the doors and windows open to let in the fresh air, also let in other things not so desirable, to the point where Pope Paul VI said that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church.
We went through a very confusing time.
And perhaps Church leaders like parents were struggling to make sense of what was happening. We knew there were things wrong with the old way we were taught, but we threw out a lot of the good things as well.
It’s a testament to the Church that things are going as well as they are. I think Pope John Paul laid the groundwork for a change and Pope Benedict with his emphasis on the need for reevangelizing the west is continuing it.
But why wait for Church leaders to do all the work? There is a lot that lay people can do especially by witnessing to the faith in their own circle. There are lots of people we can learn from. And we don’t have to wait for Church leaders to tell us how to lead good and holy lives, we know how. And if we don’t there are plenty of ways to learn.
 
great points everyone! I as a cradle Catholic do believe that in the past many catholics talk about following the rules/laws of the Church over allowing the grace of our Lord work more than following a set of rules like the Jews did…there should be a balance between both I guess.
 
I have always thought Christ was talking about the Laws in the Talmud.
 
I also think we’re not to judge others, and their (according to us) lack of whatever…
or we become a bit like an inverse Pharisee: “I thank you Lord that I am not like these others…I’m on fire for you and they are just following the rules.”
Sometimes duty can be cold, but Our Lord praised the son who said “No” and then went into the vineyard, as against the one who was all enthusiastic and said “Yes” and then didn’t go.
We can only see a portion of a person’s life, we do not know what burdens they carry, what responsibilities, what illnesses they have.
We should not judge because we cannot.
 
There was a name for this law that escapes me right now.
There was a name for this law that escapes me right now.
http://www.filii.info/g.gif
Corban.

*According to this tradition, a son could declare that what he had intended to give his parents was considered “Corban” (ie. a gift devoted to God). Once a gift was considered “Corban” it could technically (though not actually) be no longer available for the care of his parents. (From Scritpure is Tradition by Jeff Cavins) *

I hope that is what you were looking for. It is clearly a bad tradition which Jesus was condemning.

-Tim-
 
Corban.

According to this tradition, a son could declare that what he had intended to give his parents was considered “Corban” (ie. a gift devoted to God). Once a gift was considered “Corban” it could technically (though not actually) be no longer available for the care of his parents. (From Scritpure is Tradition by Jeff Cavins)

I hope that is what you were looking for. It is clearly a bad tradition which Jesus was condemning.

-Tim-
Thanks, it is what I was looking for. I appreciate the answer.

mdcpensive1
 
great points everyone! I as a cradle Catholic do believe that in the past many catholics talk about following the rules/laws of the Church over allowing the grace of our Lord work more than following a set of rules like the Jews did…there should be a balance between both I guess.
I have always thought Christ was talking about the Laws in the Talmud.
I guess the problem I’m trying to articulate relates to the idea of some of the Canon Laws and how they compare to the Talmud/Mosaic laws and their practitioners who Jesus condemned.

The Canon Law addresses obvious important points, like defining dogmas of belief. But the Canon also seems to have digressed into a new form of OT Law/Talmud…in things related to the sacraments-- the vast liturgical rules, rules for receiving the sacraments, to anullments to indulgences and on and on…

I’m approaching the Canon Law in a way to be able to understand/explain it to a non-Catholic Christian, especially one who is a “born again” Christian who’s just heard the Good News and is responding with the strong faith like a child (many of these are fallen away cradle Catholics).

So much of the Canon Law seems to have become more of a burden than a help to our faith… I’ve heard so many people despairing over how their priest didn’t do something “just right” in the Mass (nothing crazy, just a very minor deviation), or questions about when/how/if they can receive communion, etc, etc. I’ve seen threads that go on and on about these rules, yet received absolutely no fruit of encouragement or building up of my faith after considering the rules.

If a person was deeply enthralled with the Mass, caught up in the spirit, and raised their arms or voice beyond the standard response-- in a spontaneous act of adoration and worship-- they would be seen as an abuser of the liturgical design… this seems like NONSENSE!

The funny thing is so many priests themselves seem to understand that it’s not about how well you follow the rule, rather, it’s about the state of your heart. Technically, these priests would be considered heretical. (Seems to relate to Jesus’ reference to the Pharisees who were placing heavy burdens on people that they themselves saw no use in following.)

What was the Holy Spirit saying through the Prophet Jeremiah (31:33-34)?

“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Anyone understanding my point?
 
Great wisdom, and very true… if only it were that simple in practice by the masses.

In my conversations with “average” American Catholics (which unfortunately–based on the stats–means those who attend mass semi-frequently and are poorly catechized) and hearing the types of questions that frequently come up in the call-in shows on Relevant Radio (like “Go Ask Your Father”), it seems the majority of “Catholics” think the real focus of being a Catholic is how well you follow the rules for the rules’ sake.

Obviously this is slowly changing–and MUST change–given the drop in numbers of faithful practicing “Western” Catholics (U.S, Europe…)— it seems to be WAY TOO SLOW, unfortunately… I’m not sure how it’s going in other continents…

The question is: what caused such a major departure from the teaching of the true meaning of the Good News? Where did the selection of the Church leadership (bishops/priests) go wrong, and why was it allowed to happen to such a drastic degree? Top business/organizational leadership teachers say, “everything rises and falls on leadership”. Does that same philosophy apply to our Church leadership?
AuroraB makes a good point. Following the rules is only part of it, but the nevertheless, there are rules to follow. Recall what Paul said, “When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.”?

The rules are there for the children so that they might become pleasing to God. These are all rules/laws given to man by God, because we are in fact all children. God gave the law to us and the rules to be followed because he loves us, like a parent who teaches their child how to be polite and kind to others-- later the child learns why it is important to behave in such manner. It is up to each person to put away childish things and become a man.

So the man in the gospel that asked Jesus what he must do, already knew the rules and the law. How many there, didn’t think to ask, “What more should I do to ensure that I’m saved?” The blame lies with the person that isn’t asking, and isn’t doing.

What is the cause? If I were to bet money on it, I would bet that the primary cause is sin. Sin is a rejection of God, and the more you sin the less motivation you have in seeking God. Since God is reality and truth, a person who lives in sin doesn’t live in reality, and that person doesn’t seek the truth.

Keep also in mind, that in the past, information wasn’t so readily available to people who were asking questions. Getting answers was a slow process, and much more difficult. In today’s world we can log in to this forum and ask questions and get a myriad of answers and opinions. We can go to newadvent.org and research the history of the church. We can go to catholic.com and get information with the click of a mouse. The truth is so much more available than it ever was, and all one has to do it seek it out and accept it when he/she find it.

The real question here is, what does this all mean for those who are still irresponsible? For those who have not put away childish things? For those who go about their lives, ‘singing and dancing’ without worry, making every excuse they can. All of our technological progress is by the grace of God, and He has made all this possible. So what excuse can we have?

We can’t blame the bishops or the priests, for what have they hid from us that we must know in order to be saved? They have hid nothing!

We have only ourselves to blame, if we fail to do more than just follow the rules. We all know that going through the motions is not enough-- for even if a person goes through the motions, then they are at least showing up to Mass on Sundays, which means they hear the same things I hear when I go.
 
First, most Catholics have never seen the Code of Canon Law.

It is not some “burden” placed upon the laity it is a series of answers to specific questions.

The spirit of the Ten Commandments may be all that one needs to determine right behavior, but when it comes down to addressing disagreements over what constitutes right and wrong behavior the Church steps in to make clarifications.

For example: Is it OK for you to divorce? How do you decide? There seems to be a rather wide spread set of opinions on the subject. Who decides the right and wrong of this and how?

Chuck
I guess the problem I’m trying to articulate relates to the idea of some of the Canon Laws and how they compare to the Talmud/Mosaic laws and their practitioners who Jesus condemned.

The Canon Law addresses obvious important points, like defining dogmas of belief. But the Canon also seems to have digressed into a new form of OT Law/Talmud…in things related to the sacraments-- the vast liturgical rules, rules for receiving the sacraments, to anullments to indulgences and on and on…

I’m approaching the Canon Law in a way to be able to understand/explain it to a non-Catholic Christian, especially one who is a “born again” Christian who’s just heard the Good News and is responding with the strong faith like a child (many of these are fallen away cradle Catholics).

So much of the Canon Law seems to have become more of a burden than a help to our faith… I’ve heard so many people despairing over how their priest didn’t do something “just right” in the Mass (nothing crazy, just a very minor deviation), or questions about when/how/if they can receive communion, etc, etc. I’ve seen threads that go on and on about these rules, yet received absolutely no fruit of encouragement or building up of my faith after considering the rules.

If a person was deeply enthralled with the Mass, caught up in the spirit, and raised their arms or voice beyond the standard response-- in a spontaneous act of adoration and worship-- they would be seen as an abuser of the liturgical design… this seems like NONSENSE!

The funny thing is so many priests themselves seem to understand that it’s not about how well you follow the rule, rather, it’s about the state of your heart. Technically, these priests would be considered heretical. (Seems to relate to Jesus’ reference to the Pharisees who were placing heavy burdens on people that they themselves saw no use in following.)

What was the Holy Spirit saying through the Prophet Jeremiah (31:33-34)?

“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Anyone understanding my point?
 
First, most Catholics have never seen the Code of Canon Law.

It is not some “burden” placed upon the laity it is a series of answers to specific questions.

The spirit of the Ten Commandments may be all that one needs to determine right behavior, but when it comes down to addressing disagreements over what constitutes right and wrong behavior the Church steps in to make clarifications.

For example: Is it OK for you to divorce? How do you decide? There seems to be a rather wide spread set of opinions on the subject. Who decides the right and wrong of this and how?

Chuck
To me cannon law is the operations manual to work out the formalities of how we live out the Church related activities. For example, we have a liturgy of the Eucharist. But if we had no directions on what to do, actions would be all over the place and abuses would happen. So cannon law is needed to guide us in how we perform our activities.

mdcpensive1

Also, another thing Jesus did to show traditions were being misused and misinterpreted in the old covenant was to cure on the sabbath.
 
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