Jewish OT Law and the New Testament

[flightkid]

great points guys/gals!

I know we have listed some traditions within the jewish faith that our blessed Lord said were nullifying the word of God, but can we think of some traditions within the Church over the last 2000 years that popes/bishops have corrected that were disciplines that were a burden to the people/Church? Obviously we know indulgences on a certain level…any other thoughts??

 

[clmowry]

great points guys/gals!

I know we have listed some traditions within the jewish faith that our blessed Lord said were nullifying the word of God, but can we think of some traditions within the Church over the last 2000 years that popes/bishops have corrected that were disciplines that were a burden to the people/Church? Obviously we know indulgences on a certain level…any other thoughts??

A simple one might be not eating meat on Fridays.

Specifically not eating meat as “the” method of Friday Abstinence. That may make sense for a particular time and culture.

The 1966 change to a fast and abstinence that is appropirate to the specific locations and economic conditions at the time that can be replaced (or augmented) with works of prayer and/or charity.

Obviously neither contradicted the word of God, but the change seems to be an improvement in the discipline.

(That’s about all I got. )

Chuck

 

[may_they_be_one]

To me cannon law is the operations manual to work out the formalities of how we live out the Church related activities. For example, we have a liturgy of the Eucharist. But if we had no directions on what to do, actions would be all over the place and abuses would happen. So cannon law is needed to guide us in how we perform our activities.

mdcpensive1

Also, another thing Jesus did to show traditions were being misused and misinterpreted in the old covenant was to cure on the sabbath.

Also, *Clmowry wrote: First, most Catholics have never seen the Code of Canon Law.

It is not some “burden” placed upon the laity it is a series of answers to specific questions.

The spirit of the Ten Commandments may be all that one needs to determine right behavior, but when it comes down to addressing disagreements over what constitutes right and wrong behavior the Church steps in to make clarifications.

For example: Is it OK for you to divorce? How do you decide? There seems to be a rather wide spread set of opinions on the subject. Who decides the right and wrong of this and how?

Chuck*​

I guess my problem is I’m looking through a “charismatic” lense… a perspective that lends itself more toward spontaneous prayer, more physically/emotionally expressive praise & worship (raising hands, shouting & crying out to God–nicely, like David did, etc), praying in personal “tongues”, etc.

These very Catholic expressions of faith and worship tend not to go over well in some peoples/Canon Law followers’ eyes, when incorporated into the Mass celebration. Yet, they are perfectly humble, authentic, loving expressions of gratitude to God for His Eucharist. A parish I attend calls these services (held during the middle of the week, not on Sunday) “Glory & Praise Mass”, and they are extraordinary and powerful (not that a regular Mass isn’t) for the folks attending who have special outward giftings of the Holy Spirit.

The idea that Jesus healed on the Sabbath seems to correlate with the idea that the Mass should allow for more spontaneous, outward forms of worship (during appropriate times of course) by those who are truly in love with the Eucharist and the Lord of it…

Once again, I contrast this with the “lawkeepers” who seem only to want to keep the law for the law’s sake, and seem (not trying to judge, merely make an observation) to lack true love of their charismatic brethren when confronting them about not sticking to the rules of the liturgy.

Hoping this is making sense, given I have a unique perspective. Anyone else ever feel this way?

 

[AuroraB]

Also, *Clmowry wrote: First, most Catholics have never seen the Code of Canon Law.

It is not some “burden” placed upon the laity it is a series of answers to specific questions.

The spirit of the Ten Commandments may be all that one needs to determine right behavior, but when it comes down to addressing disagreements over what constitutes right and wrong behavior the Church steps in to make clarifications.

For example: Is it OK for you to divorce? How do you decide? There seems to be a rather wide spread set of opinions on the subject. Who decides the right and wrong of this and how?

Chuck*​

I guess my problem is I’m looking through a “charismatic” lense… a perspective that lends itself more toward spontaneous prayer, more physically/emotionally expressive praise & worship (raising hands, shouting & crying out to God–nicely, like David did, etc), praying in personal “tongues”, etc.

These very Catholic expressions of faith and worship tend not to go over well in some peoples/Canon Law followers’ eyes, when incorporated into the Mass celebration. Yet, they are perfectly humble, authentic, loving expressions of gratitude to God for His Eucharist. A parish I attend calls these services (held during the middle of the week, not on Sunday) “Glory & Praise Mass”, and they are extraordinary and powerful (not that a regular Mass isn’t) for the folks attending who have special outward giftings of the Holy Spirit.

The idea that Jesus healed on the Sabbath seems to correlate with the idea that the Mass should allow for more spontaneous, outward forms of worship (during appropriate times of course) by those who are truly in love with the Eucharist and the Lord of it…

Once again, I contrast this with the “lawkeepers” who seem only to want to keep the law for the law’s sake, and seem (not trying to judge, merely make an observation) to lack true love of their charismatic brethren when confronting them about not sticking to the rules of the liturgy.

Hoping this is making sense, given I have a unique perspective. Anyone else ever feel this way?

I think that individual gestures and spontaneous forms of worship can be very individualistic and distracting for others at Mass.
The Mass isn’t a time for individual prayer it’s the time when we gather as a community in union with the whole world wide Church, past and present. So there has to be some unity and order to it.
Also it’s not meant to be a time when the priest ad libs the prayers of the Mass.
I think we are servants of the Mass rather than its masters.
This is the liturgy of the whole Church, and there is meaning in every word and gesture, and we are meant to pray these words and make them our own, and reflect on them and their very deep meaning.
I’m sure there are others who can explain this better than I.
I’ve found it’s good every now and then to study what the Church is saying about the Mass. Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy” explains it very well.
On the other hand I don’t think we should expect perfection every time and quibble over every little thing.

 

[clmowry]

It makes perfect sense to me that chrismatic masses are specified as such. I would expect that same of a traditional latin mass. etc.

I’m not really sure why we would want “shouting out and crying” to be an norm for all masses.

An unsuspecting Catholic should expect to be able to attned a “normal” service. Someone searching for a latin mass who gets a chirismatic mass and vice versa is likely to be a tad disapointed.

Should all of that be allowed?

With no limits, amongst a billion or so Catholics I’m sure we are likely to be able to come up with a lot of creative “improvements” that would turn Catholicism into some sort of cultural parody.

Maybe the pastor should say mass in a clown suit to entertain the kids, or toss in a little pig latin every now and then to make sure people are paying attention, interupt the consecration for an antecdote or two…(or any other silliness we can come up with.)

Chuck

Also, Clmowry wrote: First, most Catholics have never seen the Code of Canon Law.

It is not some “burden” placed upon the laity it is a series of answers to specific questions.

The spirit of the Ten Commandments may be all that one needs to determine right behavior, but when it comes down to addressing disagreements over what constitutes right and wrong behavior the Church steps in to make clarifications.

For example: Is it OK for you to divorce? How do you decide? There seems to be a rather wide spread set of opinions on the subject. Who decides the right and wrong of this and how?

Chuck​

I guess my problem is I’m looking through a “charismatic” lense… a perspective that lends itself more toward spontaneous prayer, more physically/emotionally expressive praise & worship (raising hands, shouting & crying out to God–nicely, like David did, etc), praying in personal “tongues”, etc.

These very Catholic expressions of faith and worship tend not to go over well in some peoples/Canon Law followers’ eyes, when incorporated into the Mass celebration. Yet, they are perfectly humble, authentic, loving expressions of gratitude to God for His Eucharist. A parish I attend calls these services (held during the middle of the week, not on Sunday) “Glory & Praise Mass”, and they are extraordinary and powerful (not that a regular Mass isn’t) for the folks attending who have special outward giftings of the Holy Spirit.

The idea that Jesus healed on the Sabbath seems to correlate with the idea that the Mass should allow for more spontaneous, outward forms of worship (during appropriate times of course) by those who are truly in love with the Eucharist and the Lord of it…

Once again, I contrast this with the “lawkeepers” who seem only to want to keep the law for the law’s sake, and seem (not trying to judge, merely make an observation) to lack true love of their charismatic brethren when confronting them about not sticking to the rules of the liturgy.

Hoping this is making sense, given I have a unique perspective. Anyone else ever feel this way?

 

[mdcpensive1]

I think that individual gestures and spontaneous forms of worship can be very individualistic and distracting for others at Mass.
The Mass isn’t a time for individual prayer it’s the time when we gather as a community in union with the whole world wide Church, past and present. So there has to be some unity and order to it.
Also it’s not meant to be a time when the priest ad libs the prayers of the Mass.
I think we are servants of the Mass rather than its masters.
This is the liturgy of the whole Church, and there is meaning in every word and gesture, and we are meant to pray these words and make them our own, and reflect on them and their very deep meaning.
I’m sure there are others who can explain this better than I.
I’ve found it’s good every now and then to study what the Church is saying about the Mass. Pope Benedict’s book “The Spirit of the Liturgy” explains it very well.
On the other hand I don’t think we should expect perfection every time and quibble over every little thing.

Interesting comments but a little off topic. I don’t think the Jews had a problem with gestures or at least I have never heard anything about that. But for us Catholics, if the Spirit is guiding us then what becomes generalized in the Mass is probably what the Spirit wants and the Church is bound to investigate and decide on what is inclusive. That is the Church’s duty and obligation.
mdcpensive1