Jewish Prophecies Concerning Jesus

[Kaninchen]

Anyone know a way to refute these claims?

As a Jew, let me suggest a major problem you face.

You assume that the ‘New Testament’ is a given - my response would be that it’s just a concoction and that the Jesus within it merely ‘fulfilled’ the prophesies that could be fulfilled by text manipulation. In other words, the Tanakh (Old Testament to you) was combed for anything that could vaguely be described as a messianic prophesy and Jesus’ life was written up in such a way that he appeared to fulfill them.

 

[Eucharisted]

As a Jew, let me suggest a major problem you face.

You assume that the ‘New Testament’ is a given - my response would be that it’s just a concoction and that the Jesus within it merely ‘fulfilled’ the prophesies that could be fulfilled by text manipulation. In other words, the Tanakh (Old Testament to you) was combed for anything that could vaguely be described as a messianic prophesy and Jesus’ life was written up in such a way that he appeared to fulfill them.

This would mean that all the pagans who wrote about Jesus were liars. I wouldn’t call them liars, though, because just as a modern man would know the things of this time, so too an ancient man would know the things of ancient time.

Moreover, Jesus’ Passion, which all historical scholars agree actually occured, fulfilled the fourth Suffering Servant song to a tee. It is no concidence, either, that Jesus didn’t drink the fourth cup at the Passover meal.

 

[tonsofquestions]

As a Jew, let me suggest a major problem you face.

You assume that the ‘New Testament’ is a given - my response would be that it’s just a concoction and that the Jesus within it merely ‘fulfilled’ the prophesies that could be fulfilled by text manipulation. In other words, the Tanakh (Old Testament to you) was combed for anything that could vaguely be described as a messianic prophesy and Jesus’ life was written up in such a way that he appeared to fulfill them.

That’s the conclusion I’m slowly coming to as well.

Trypho, a Jew, acknowledges that this is talking about the Messiah, and in any case it is quite clearly the case objectively.

Where are you getting this stuff? I am curious because I know you didn’t come up with it on your own.

Well this would certainly refute Eucharisted’s idea that the Jews changed the Messianic prophecies after 70 A.D., as Trypho lived long after then and would have grown up with that change already in effect. However, give some time to find where in that debate they talk about the suffering servant, it’s a rather long discussion.

 

[Kaninchen]

This would mean that all the pagans who wrote about Jesus were liars. I wouldn’t call them liars, though, because just as a modern man would know the things of this time, so too an ancient man would know the things of ancient time.

Are pious fictions lies? I’d have thought that it was more the case of a revered figure and attempts to get him to ‘fit’ - like biting bits off jigsaw puzzle pieces.

Moreover, Jesus’ Passion, which all historical scholars agree actually occured,

Or not, as the case may be.

fulfilled the Suffering Servant songs to a tee.

Good scriptwriting.

The thing is that these were very powerful arguments to use with somebody to accepts the New Testament. To somebody who doesn’t, it’s rather meaningless.

 

[Shin]

As a Jew, let me suggest a major problem you face.

You assume that the ‘New Testament’ is a given - my response would be that it’s just a concoction and that the Jesus within it merely ‘fulfilled’ the prophesies that could be fulfilled by text manipulation. In other words, the Tanakh (Old Testament to you) was combed for anything that could vaguely be described as a messianic prophesy and Jesus’ life was written up in such a way that he appeared to fulfill them.

Now, see, here we have someone living today who is of the Judaism that branched off through the Pharisees, completely opposed to the Judaism of God that became Christianity, and this person acknowledges that Christ fulfills the prophecies.

She merely claims it’s a fabrication… which is easily demonstrated as historically false because of how public all this was at the time it occurred.

That the prophecies are fulfilled is simply obvious. They may not have been fulfilled in the way some of the Pharisaical schools desired, but they were fulfilled in the way others knew, desired, and properly interpreted.

Prophecies are always in fact, generally meant to be mysterious and only fully realized as to what they refer to -after- they are fulfilled.

That the idea the prophecy is of a purely military hero Messiah who does not suffer is false, is demonstrated by the disaster God visited on the Pharisaical schools shortly thereafter who rejected Christ for that version of the prophecy. Bar Kokhba was utterly crushed, the people who followed him completely devastated.

The Lord’s displeasure was also amply demonstrated in the destruction of the temple, which already had ceased to accept the sacrifices – And the Old Testament did not continue with new visits to Israel, new prophecies – which if Christ had not been the Messiah, certainly would have occurred. There was no reason for it to end, no reason for God to hide His face otherwise.

Later when the temple was attempted to be rebuilt, the Lord struck those who tried to do so with fire and brimstone, which was witnessed and recorded by Jews, pagans, and Christians at the time.

 

[Kaninchen]

Now, see, here we have someone living today who is of the Judaism that branched off through the Pharisees, completely opposed to the Judaism of God that became Christianity, and this person acknowledges that Christ fulfills the prophecies . . . .

I’m sure that such grandstanding would go down powerfully with anybody who believed in the New Testament. As an attempt to impress those of us who don’t, it’s pretty pointless.

 

[Shin]

I’m sure that such grandstanding would go down powerfully with anybody who believed in the New Testament. As an attempt to impress those of us who don’t, it’s pretty pointless.

You misinterpret my motivations, but that’s fine. By the way, I like the rabbit, it’s very cute.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Can anyone tell me which of these passages that are talking about nothing related to the Messiah, such as Hosea, are actually “prophecies” that Jesus fulfilled? Why is Jesus not simply “being made to fit” as the Jewish poster mentioned? As I’ve said before, I can find any number of Old Testament verses that might apply to someone, doesn’t make them a Messiah, unless it’s a messianic prophecy.

 

[Shin]

Can anyone tell me which of these passages that are talking about nothing related to the Messiah, such as Hosea, are actually “prophecies” that Jesus fulfilled? Why is Jesus not simply “being made to fit” as the Jewish poster mentioned? As I’ve said before, I can find any number of Old Testament verses that might apply to someone, doesn’t make them a Messiah, unless it’s a messianic prophecy.

You don’t find saving the people of Israel from their sins messianic?

Honestly. I think any way to interpret things badly, you -will- interpret things badly.

Approaching things with that kind of attitude never gets anyone to the truth, but only to the answer already decided upon and wanted…

And is a disservice to your own soul.

Humility may I say it – Is necessary to find God. You have to be willing to walk in other shoes. We all need to be more humble and cautious and prudent, both you and I, and this is one of those occasions.

I apologize if I sound high handed, but however poor the delivery, the content within cannot be apologized for. You need to work on your method of study, you have a fundamental problem right there – not the things you are studying, but your own method.

Benedice I pray!

 

[tonsofquestions]

You don’t find saving the people of Israel from their sins messianic?

Honestly. I think any way to interpret things badly, you -will- interpret things badly.

Approaching things with that kind of attitude never gets anyone to the truth, but only to the answer already decided upon and wanted…

And is a disservice to your own soul.

Humility may I say it – Is necessary to find God. You have to be willing to walk in other shoes. We all need to be more humble and cautious and prudent, both you and I, and this is one of those occasions.

I apologize if I sound high handed, but however poor the delivery, the content within cannot be apologized for. You need to work on your method of study, you have a fundamental problem right there – not the things you are studying, but your own method.

Benedice I pray!

You and others keep telling me I’m wrong, that I need to be more humble, which I do, but none of you are telling me why I’m wrong. You all seem to think that the only reason I would disagree with you is because I’m not being humble, that no humble, virtuous person would come to the conclusions I have. Well since you all are the humble ones explain to me how these verses that don’t refer to the Messiah at all are actually Messianic prophecies. Don’t just tell me that I’m wrong, show me my error.

 

[Shin]

You and others keep telling me I’m wrong, that I need to be more humble, which I do, but none of you are telling me why I’m wrong. You all seem to think that the only reason I would disagree with you is because I’m not being humble, that no humble, virtuous person would come to the conclusions I have. Well since you all are the humble ones explain to me how these verses that don’t refer to the Messiah at all are actually Messianic prophecies. Don’t just tell me that I’m wrong, show me my error.

Did I not just do that? Is not saving people from their sins more messianic than merely having a military victory?

Let me state it clearly – Saving people from their sins is more important. Far more important than as the sun is compared to a speck of dust.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Did I not just do that? Is not saving people from their sins more messianic than merely having a military victory?

Let me state it clearly – Saving people from their sins is more important. Far more important than as the sun is compared to a speck of dust.

Oh, I’m not saying that it isn’t. Saving people from their sins would be very powerful evidence that someone was a Messiah, and as you say, is far more important than military victories. That’s not what I’m disputing. However,the verse in Hosea says nothing about saving people from their sins, which just proves my point. You assume that the passage is talking about saving people from sins, and thus, it becomes messianic. However, the passage in question says nothing about saving people from their sins. That is why I don’t believe this is Messianic, or even a prophecy, considering it is talking about past events.

 

[Shin]

I will also note that before Christ, the Temple was the only means for the Jews to be forgiven from their sins.

After His death, the veil was torn, and the Temple ceased to accept the sacrifice for sins – and then was destroyed. So they only had Christ, or no forgiveness.

This demonstrates the truth of Christ as the Messiah, and that He came to forgive sins, to be a sacrifice for that sake, which is prefigured in Abraham and Isaac, who was replaced with a lamb, in Isaiah, in all the sacrifices beforehand, in the painting of the blood on the doors in Egypt, in the Passover meal. . .

 

[Shin]

Oh, I’m not saying that it isn’t. Saving people from their sins would be very powerful evidence that someone was a Messiah, and as you say, is far more important than military victories. That’s not what I’m disputing. However,the verse in Hosea says nothing about saving people from their sins, which just proves my point. You assume that the passage is talking about saving people from sins, and thus, it becomes messianic. However, the passage in question says nothing about saving people from their sins. That is why I don’t believe this is Messianic, or even a prophecy, considering it is talking about past events.

Sigh yes it does. You apparently don’t understand the language. The word ‘justify’, do you note that? The word ‘healed’ do you note? Do you not understand the symbolism of the lamb? The firstborn lamb? Which is what is sacrificed on the altar of the Temple to forgive sins?

Apparently you don’t, but at the same time you pronounce these authoritative judgements ‘I don’t believe’ rather than, ‘I don’t yet understand’, and that’s the problem.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Sigh yes it does. You apparently don’t understand the language. The word ‘justify’, do you note that? The word ‘healed’ do you note? Do you not understand the symbolism of the lamb? The firstborn lamb? Which is what is sacrificed on the altar of the Temple to forgive sins?

Apparently you don’t, but at the same time you pronounce these authoritative judgements ‘I don’t believe’ rather than, ‘I don’t yet understand’, and that’s the problem.

Where is this mentioned in Hosea 11? The only thing you mentioned that I see is healer, at the end of verse 4, which is talking about a past event. I don’t see anything about being justified, or a firstborn lamb?

 

[Shin]

That’s the conclusion I’m slowly coming to as well.

Well this would certainly refute Eucharisted’s idea that the Jews changed the Messianic prophecies after 70 A.D., as Trypho lived long after then and would have grown up with that change already in effect. However, give some time to find where in that debate they talk about the suffering servant, it’s a rather long discussion.

In regards to this matter, some Jews became Christians, some did not. Those that did not, interpreted the prophecies one way, those that did, the other. There were multiple schools.

The holy group from whence came Mary, John the Baptist, others - their schools interpreted the prophecies properly.

However, the Pharisees definitely manipulated things afterwards, because they were violently against Christianity, and for that reason the offshoot of Judaism they presided over, focused on prophecy interpreted in as much as way as possible to exclude Christ, and that is what went into the Talmud and caused the Jews to largely reject the Greek Old Testament, which hitherto had been revered as inspired.

Where is this mentioned in Hosea 11? The only thing you mentioned that I see is healer, at the end of verse 4, which is talking about a past event. I don’t see anything about being justified, or a firstborn lamb?

Sigh, pardon me I was focusing on Isaiah and became confused.

 

[Shin]

Where is this mentioned in Hosea 11? The only thing you mentioned that I see is healer, at the end of verse 4, which is talking about a past event. I don’t see anything about being justified, or a firstborn lamb?

Egypt is what represents paganism and idolotry. Assyria is the same, though there is more to it than that, that I forget.

Sparrows and doves are also sacrifices for sins offered on the altar of the Temple.

The holy family sacrificed their lives for the sake of redemption of sins.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Sigh, pardon me I was focusing on Isaiah and became confused.

Well, the purpose of this thread was not to talk about whether or not the Old Testament prophecies do mention Christ, though that is important. I was specifically referring to the specific verses that the Gospel writers used that they claimed were prophecies concerning the Messiah. And so far no one has been able to tell me why this is referring to Jesus when it is clearly referring to Israel and the Exodus, as the rest of the passage, the part Matthew conveniently didn’t quote, clearly shows.

 

[tonsofquestions]

whoops, didn’t see your post till after

 

[tonsofquestions]

Egypt is what represents paganism and idolotry. Assyria is the same, though there is more to it than that, that I forget.

That is your opinion. You are making this passage fit with your beliefs. But look at the passage. Is this talking about a future event, or is it talking about the events following the exodus?