Jewish Prophecies Concerning Jesus

[Shin]

That is your opinion. You are making this passage fit with your beliefs. But look at the passage. Is this talking about a future event, or is it talking about the events following the exodus?

This is why ‘types’ are so important, as I said earlier – Events that happen in scripture, that are examples and foreshadowings of future, larger and more tremendous or fulfilling events.

Repetition happens a good deal in scripture, Old Testament and New – Just look at Genesis.

Matters get retold, things happen again, as they did before, reflecting on what happened in the past.

Who exactly is the child of who matters – Because each of the children treats each other a certain way, and then their descendents become tribes, and represent certain vices and persecute each other the same way.

Cain and Abel – The descendents of Cain behave one way. It repeats itself, grows larger… God speaks of how the tribe will behave, as a prophecy… Not just as how the tribe will behave… and later it is fulfilled. And the very name of the tribe becomes the name of a vice…

Sodom becomes Sodomites… Etc…

 

[tonsofquestions]

This is why ‘types’ are so important, as I said earlier – Events that happen in scripture, that are examples and foreshadowings of future, larger and more tremendous or fulfilling events.

Repetition happens a good deal in scripture, Old Testament and New – Just look at Genesis.

Matters get retold, things happen again, as they did before, reflecting on what happened in the past.

Who exactly is the child of who matters – Because each of the children treats each other a certain way, and then their descendents become tribes, and represent certain vices and persecute each other the same way.

Cain and Abel – The descendents of Cain behave one way. It repeats itself, grows larger… God speaks of how the tribe will behave, as a prophecy… Not just as how the tribe will behave… and later it is fulfilled. And the very name of the tribe becomes the name of a vice…

Sodom becomes Sodomites… Etc…

But you can prove anything if you use that method!

 

[Shin]

But you can prove anything if you use that method!

No you can’t, because the people -do- have fixed symbolisms, fixed archtypes and meanings. They don’t just mean anything they -do- clearly mean something. Their very names in Hebrew are the English equivalents of, ‘The Conquerer’, ‘The Man’, ‘Dust’, ‘The Sinner by Fornication’, and so on.

It -is- clear, you just have to -know- the prime meanings. And these you find out simply by referring to what they are defined as in the footnotes, or in some other reference.

 

[Shin]

You seem to want prophecies where God says, ‘On July 11th, 2011, Bill Clinton visits Israel and jumps off the roof of the capitol building.’

Specific. Exact, factual. That’s NOT how prophecies are done. Especially since God doesn’t want to tempt people to try to reproduce them on their own, He wants people who humbly and knowingly study them to be inspired -by Him- with the correct understanding, and the people who are obstinate, to -not understand-.

Which is why Jesus spoke in parables often enough. To preserve the truth from people who would simply denigrate it, even if they did know it.

 

[tonsofquestions]

No you can’t, because the people -do- have fixed symbolisms, fixed archtypes and meanings. They don’t just mean anything they -do- clearly mean something. Their very names in Hebrew are the English equivalents of, ‘The Conquerer’, ‘The Man’, ‘Dust’, ‘The Sinner by Fornication’, and so on.

It -is- clear, you just have to -know- the prime meanings. And these you find out simply by referring to what they are defined as in the footnotes, or in some other reference.

My footnotes say nothing other than that Matthew uses verse 1 to talk about Jesus. Which I already knew.

 

[Shin]

My footnotes say nothing other than that Matthew uses verse 1 to talk about Jesus. Which I already knew.

Try a good Bible dictionary, and/or Google the name meanings.

Old chap, I’m not giving up on you, but I am not a prophecy scholar. I do moral law. I don’t study all the meanings of prophecies. That I am telling you this much is rather astonishing to me.

 

[tonsofquestions]

You seem to want prophecies where God says, ‘On July 11th, 2011, Bill Clinton visits Israel and jumps off the roof of the capitol building.’

Specific. Exact, factual. That’s NOT how prophecies are done. Especially since God doesn’t want to tempt people to try to reproduce them on their own, He wants people who humbly and knowingly study them to be inspired -by Him- with the correct understanding, and the people who are obstinate, to -not understand-.

Which is why Jesus spoke in parables often enough. To preserve the truth from people who would simply denigrate it, even if they did know it.

All I’m saying is that it is pure guesswork. However, please tell me why Hosea 11:1-4 would be considered a prophecy, when it is talking about past events? 11:5 starts talkinng about future events, but 11:1-4 is all past events.

 

[Shin]

All I’m saying is that it is pure guesswork. However, please tell me why Hosea 11:1-4 would be considered a prophecy, when it is talking about past events? 11:5 starts talkinng about future events, but 11:1-4 is all past events.

Why do you think when a prophet, in a book of prophecy, talks about past events, it can’t be part of the prophecy itself? There is a point to mentioning these events… they have to apply somehow to the prophecy…

Scripture is full of multiple meanings. One thing I can say about scripture it NEVER means only one thing. Ever. Ever. Ever.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Further more, where in the Old Testament is Egypt used to refer to paganism and idolatry rather than the nation of Egypt?

 

[Snerticus]

tonsofquestions, you really have an apropos name!

But you’re like the little kid that keeps asking “why?” everytime they get an answer. Your’e not going to be satisfied because you only see things your way.

I cannot tell you how to see things another way other than the way you see them. I can see things the way you do and understand why you would be asking those questions. I can also see things the way Shin does and understand his/her frustrations in trying to explain them to you.

It’s all in the matter of how you look at things. If you’re looking for something that you don’t think is there, and your mind has already made it’s own judgement about it, no matter how open minded you think you may be, it’s not going to sink in.

From what I’ve see of this conversation, Shin is presenting to you another way of looking at the prophecies of the OT as regarding being fulfilled in the NT. It seems - at this point only - that you are incapable of looking at the prophecies in any way other than the only way you can. Sometimes it takes a great deal of time to see things differently and perhaps hundreds of people describing things in different ways. One day, perhaps months, years, or decades later, you’ll be sitting drinking coffee reading the newspaper and out of the blue you’ll remember this conversation and it’ll finally “click”. You’ll say to yourself, “why didn’t I understand it back then, it would’ve made life a whole lot easier for me if I did!” Take it from someone who it has already happened to. I didn’t understand what all the fuss was about the Bible prophecies and didn’t understand why people read into them so much.

Then one day after about twenty years I picked up the Bible again and decided to read it. Wow. The things that just popped out at me were incredible, and I wondered how in the world I could NOT have seen these things before. I was not religious at the time and actually tried to stay away from it like it was the plague, so I know I was not “colored” by a religious mentality. I didn’t want God in my life, but I wanted to know what all the fuss was about, so I just picked up the Bible and decided to try it again.

For the reasons already stated, if I were in the conversation instead of Shin, I would have given up a long time ago. Thank God Shin was here instead of me. You see, you may not understand any of this now and may continue to reject the prophecies of the OT as being fulfilled in the NT by Jesus, however, someday, somewhere, sometime and at some point in your life, this conversation is going to have an effect on you. You may not realize it at all or even remember this conversation, but it will.

I don’t mean to sound like I rained on your parade, but you may and probably won’t get it until God decides you’re ready. Not when you decide. Unfortunately for an agnostic, that’s not a good enough answer. I’m sorry I don’t have a better answer for you. I’m not going to try to explain prophecies because I’m even less qualified than Shin. But I do have to say God Bless Shin for trying. And God Bless you for asking.

Snert

Sorry I mentioned agnostic above, as I thought you were considering it. I didn’t realize you were considering atheism. Apologies.

 

[Shin]

Thank you.

I blame myself for explaining things so poorly, I misunderstood his questions at times and focused on other things. I apologize. I did a poor job in all. No one else was answering, so I felt obliged to try though this is not my normal focus.

I agree that there needs to be a ‘click’ moment of inspiration here, so I am praying for that. Sometimes… like St. Paul… you suddenly, ‘see’ the perspective.

Amen. Amen. St. Paul, ora pro nobis.

Perhaps I’ll give this another go in a bit, but right now I need a rest.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Why do you think when a prophet, in a book of prophecy, talks about past events, it can’t be part of the prophecy itself? There is a point to mentioning these events… they have to apply somehow to the prophecy…

If you’re saying that the prophecy in verses 5-7 is talking about Jesus as well, then apparently Jesus is ruled by Assyria(paganism and idolatry, according to you). The part of the prophecy that is looking forward, and thus talking about future events, cannot be talking about Jesus. So either A) All of Hosea 11 is talking about Jesus, which can’t be true, since that would mean he was ruled by paganism and idolatry, or B) Only verses 1-4 is talking about Jesus, which can’t be true since it only refers to past events. Since looking at the passage shows that verses 5 and on are a continuation of verses 1-4, not a seperate discourse, to say that Jesus was the person mentioned in verse 1, you would have to say that he was ruled by paganism and idolatry.

Scripture is full of multiple meanings. One thing I can say about scripture it NEVER means only one thing. Ever. Ever. Ever.

I’m going to assume you’re not serious, since I can find hundreds of verses that mean what they say and nothing more.

 

[Shin]

If you’re saying that the prophecy in verses 5-7 is talking about Jesus as well, then apparently Jesus is ruled by Assyria(paganism and idolatry, according to you). The part of the prophecy that is looking forward, and thus talking about future events, cannot be talking about Jesus. So either A) All of Hosea 11 is talking about Jesus, which can’t be true, since that would mean he was ruled by paganism and idolatry, or B) Only verses 1-4 is talking about Jesus, which can’t be true since it only refers to past events. Since looking at the passage shows that verses 5 and on are a continuation of verses 1-4, not a seperate discourse, to say that Jesus was the person mentioned in verse 1, you would have to say that he was ruled by paganism and idolatry.

I’m going to assume you’re not serious, since I can find hundreds of verses that mean what they say and nothing more.

No actually you can’t, that’s why the Bible is a book for all of mankind’s history – God uses the verses to apply to all history, to individual events and lives, and inspires people to understand them to that purpose.

It is a divine book, meant to be understood in different ways. When God says, ‘Let there be light’, it means more than just ‘let there be light’ and this is the traditional method of interpretation.

So, you need to start over from the very beginning and read about ‘how to read scripture’ rather than reading scripture like a secular person reading a world history book written in the past few years.

And that is all I have to say.

 

[tonsofquestions]

No actually you can’t, that’s why the Bible is a book for all of mankind’s history – God uses the verses to apply to all history, to individual events and lives, and inspires people to understand them to that purpose.

It is a divine book, meant to be understood in different ways. When God says, ‘Let there be light’, it means more than just ‘let there be light’ and this is the traditional method of interpretation.

So, you need to start over from the very beginning and read about ‘how to read scripture’ rather than reading scripture like a secular person reading a world history book written in the past few years.

And that is all I have to say.

Every verse has a deeper meaning? And exactly who’s pinion on “how to read scripture” should I follow, and why is their method the best?

 

[Snerticus]

Every verse has a deeper meaning? And exactly who’s pinion on “how to read scripture” should I follow, and why is their method the best?

That’s a good question, which is why there are so many religions, and particularly so many denominations within Christianity. Sometimes you have to decide for yourself and use other sources than the Bible to determine that. I myself used history books after I had that “AHA!!!” moment to see what was really the truth.

Unfortunately, if we all agreed on it we’d all be one big Christian denomination and “Catholic” would just be one word to describe it. But since we don’t agree we have to look at different sources to come to our own conclusions. Remember, conclusions can and do change in time, that’s why you see converts and reverts. Not only to Christianity but to other religions as well.

I can’t tell you where to look, but using reason as well as faith (if you have it) will give you the best results. Even if the results are a bit off the mark, you’ll still be closer than you were. And always strive to understand - that’s the key even if you have already made up your mind to be Catholic… or not.

Snert