Jewish Question - Do you feel God's Covenant is still active?

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We we having a little discussion over on another thread about whether God’s covenant with the Jews was still active?

If so, are they receiving the full benefit?

If not, can it be restored?
 
I think an important note should be made that many Christians hold, which is, we believe Israel still has a covenant with God. The problem is, the Jews are not upholding their end. I think he is blessing them, just at 1/10th of what it could be. If they would turn and see God, he would open the floodgates.
Okay, so on the other thread I had asked how you thought traditional Jews weren’t upholding their end? I am very curious to hear how you think that there would be more blessings if they would turn and see God.

I’m having a hard time understanding how they don’t “see God.” I mean, sure, traditional observant Jews don’t get the Jesus thing. But they DO “get God” as far as I can tell.
 
The Covenant rests with the Children of Abraham, and as scripture teaches " ‘Abraham is our father,’ they answered.

‘If you were Abraham’s children,’ said Jesus, ‘then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does.’ "

Therefore the Jews do not have a part in the covenant. Christ is the Way, and the only way to the Father is through the son.

With that said, I do not believe God condemns the unwillfully ignorant, but judges them by their own laws.
 
The Covenant rests with the Children of Abraham, and as scripture teaches " ‘Abraham is our father,’ they answered.

‘If you were Abraham’s children,’ said Jesus, ‘then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the things your own father does.’ "

Therefore the Jews do not have a part in the covenant. Christ is the Way, and the only way to the Father is through the son.

With that said, I do not believe God condemns the unwillfully ignorant, but judges them by their own laws.
Are you saying this person is lying?

John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

I’m surprised so many talk with absolute ignorance yet call themselves Christians.

.
 
Are you saying this person is lying?

John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know. We worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

I’m surprised so many talk with absolute ignorance yet call themselves Christians.

.
Salvation did indeedcome from the Jews, in the personage of Christ. Are you saying Christ was lying when he said those Jews who opposed him were not sons of Abraham?

Nonetheless I know well enough not to engage in polemics with you.
 
Salvation did indeed come from the Jews, in the personage of Christ. Are you saying Christ was lying when he said those Jews who opposed him were not sons of Abraham?

Nonetheless I know well enough not to engage in polemics with you.
For the sake of the others I shall reply you.

Salvation is from the Jews (As spoken by Jesus). Always has been and always will be.

The reply that Jesus gave was a rebuke to these men who were committing evil in the name of Abraham. It has nothing to do with the validity of the Salvation which remains for perpetuity.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.
 
Okay, so on the other thread I had asked how you thought traditional Jews weren’t upholding their end? I am very curious to hear how you think that there would be more blessings if they would turn and see God.

I’m having a hard time understanding how they don’t “see God.” I mean, sure, traditional observant Jews don’t get the Jesus thing. But they DO “get God” as far as I can tell.
Ok. I am going to make this abbreviated because I need to get back to studying

We see a variety of covenants in the Old Testament. The ones I think most people talk about are the covenants Abraham (Gen. 17:2), Isaac (Gen.17:19), and Jacob (Gen. 28:13). Then we see a unique statement in Exodus 19:5-6, “5Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

We see in Psalm 78:10 that the covenant was the law and it also says, “they did not keep God’s covenant and refused to live by his law.”

So the statement is, can they restore the covenant? Jesus says, “I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.” Christ acknowledges their lineage but is showing that the promise is not to the people but to the belief. Well there is one way they could restore it and it has already been said, through Christ. It is through the message of love that is found in the Old Testament. It is a message of love found in the New Testament.

Now I am going to say something that is going to be a little hard to digest. The children of Israel will not turn to God while we are in the most basic contemporary setting. What I mean is, until God puts into motion the sequence of events to bring about Christ’s return. Now, the humorous part is, when Christ returns, at some point he will be a worldly, earthly ruler which the Jews expect and I imagine it will be a “Doh!” kind of moment.

Now closer to the area we were talking about. Would God bless the Jews if they turned toward Him. I say, yes. God says it is an everlasting covenant, which would mean even now.
 
Ok. I am going to make this abbreviated because I need to get back to studying

We see a variety of covenants in the Old Testament. The ones I think most people talk about are the covenants Abraham (Gen. 17:2), Isaac (Gen.17:19), and Jacob (Gen. 28:13). Then we see a unique statement in Exodus 19:5-6, “5Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."

We see in Psalm 78:10 that the covenant was the law and it also says, “they did not keep God’s covenant and refused to live by his law.”

So the statement is, can they restore the covenant? Jesus says, “I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.” Christ acknowledges their lineage but is showing that the promise is not to the people but to the belief. Well there is one way they could restore it and it has already been said, through Christ. It is through the message of love that is found in the Old Testament. It is a message of love found in the New Testament.

Now I am going to say something that is going to be a little hard to digest. The children of Israel will not turn to God while we are in the most basic contemporary setting. What I mean is, until God puts into motion the sequence of events to bring about Christ’s return. Now, the humorous part is, when Christ returns, at some point he will be a worldly, earthly ruler which the Jews expect and I imagine it will be a “Doh!” kind of moment.

Now closer to the area we were talking about. Would God bless the Jews if they turned toward Him. I say, yes. God says it is an everlasting covenant, which would mean even now.
Restore the Covenant? :confused:

Jesus made the Covenant with His people the Jews. which resulted in the Church, the CC.

all the Apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jew.

what Jesus wants is for them to come to accept Jesus is the Messiah. many did then, many did through the ages. and many will along the ages.

this is the Covenant, the Eucharist which the Church celebrates, everywhere, from east to west, from sun up to sundown. a new offering will be done in my Name."
 
Now, the humorous part is, when Christ returns, at some point he will be a worldly, earthly ruler which the Jews expect and I imagine it will be a “Doh!” kind of moment.
Danger Will Robinson…

I wouldn’t put a penny of faith in that. There have been many earthly rulers who have sought the genuine worship or obedience due to God for themselves, and not a few who would quote or -with great cleverness- manipulate Sacred Scripture to justify it. Historically the worst of these are called anti-Christs or models of the anti-Christ to come. Traditionally they’re Alexander the Great, Napoleon and Hitler. The pagan Caesars -and even some Christian Augustus- have trespassed over from the temporal to the spiritual, doing much damage the unity of the Faith in the process. The East-West Schism has its core and root in the machinations of the Christian Emperors. Constantine laid the way for Caesaro-papism that harmed the unity and integrity of the Church, which King Henry VIII would later also do, under similar pretexts.

Long story short, I think we are expecting too much from ourselves if we presume to identify the second coming with any human or earthly ruler. While that may be the case, based on speculative theology, we are not taught to do this. I would therefore say that, by reason of omission from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, we are not meant to “go there”, as they say. Christians know what they need to know. Worst still, if it becomes believed that Christians, Jews and Muslims all expect a Messiah to come in some earthly ruler form, I assure you then a great many people will seek that status for obvious reasons. You may get a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a heck of a lot of genuine “anti-Christs” (of varying degrees) running around to boot.

So…

Danger Will Robinson.
 
Salvation only comes through Christ, the Old Covenant is no longer valid.

Paul spoke about this in Romans 10.
 
Salvation only comes through Christ, the Old Covenant is no longer valid.

Paul spoke about this in Romans 10.
This is why Jesus says that when you pour new wines into old wineskins, it tears apart. Some people just cannot perceive the the understandings of the promise.

The Old Covenant cannot ever be removed because God promised it as an ETERNAL promise to Abraham. I don’t understand why such a simple concept is difficult to understand. Jesus came as a realisation/fulfilment of that same promise.

Anyone who says the old covenant is no longer valid is claiming God to be a liar. When God says a new covenant, it is added ONTO the old, NOT in replacement of the old. Jesus came to complete the Salvation Plan, NOT to change it.
 
The Old Covenant cannot ever be removed because God promised it as an ETERNAL promise to Abraham. I don’t understand why such a simple concept is difficult to understand.
Ironically enough, before the nation of Israel came along and it was popular to speak of the political Israel as being the same as the ethnic and racial Israel of the Bible, Jews used this argument against Christianity.

I have studied the chief passages of Scripture, that constitute the grounds upon which the Jews argue against us; as where God said to Abraham: “I will make my covenant between me and thee, and with thy seed after thee, in their generations, for an everlasting covenant,” etc. Here the Jews brag, as the papists do upon the passage: “Thou art Peter.” [Martin Luther, *Table Talk, No. 810]
Anyone who says the old covenant is no longer valid is claiming God to be a liar. When God says a new covenant, it is added ONTO the old, NOT in replacement of the old.
No one is calling God a liar, because that is not what God said.

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [Jer 31:31-33; emphasis mine]

St. Paul refers to this passage in his epistle to the Hebrews, saying “if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second” (Heb 8:7), therefore God “has made the first obsolete…now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13). There’s no argument made here that a new covenant is being attached onto the old one - Paul is quite clearly arguing that the old one has left us.

But now let’s review the covenant made to Abraham, which you referred to:

And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. [Gen 17:17]

Christ was born a descendant of Abraham (Matt 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-34), in many ways fulfilling the prophecy to Abraham that “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen 12:3). Yet we know that Christ was rejected by a large number of Jews, for St. John writes:

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:11-13]

He came to His own (the Jewish people, God’s chosen people), but His own did not receive Him. However, those who do receive Him - which includes Jews and Gentiles (remember by the time John wrote His gospel the Church was mixed between the two) were given the right to become children of God.

In his letter to the Galatians, St. Paul writes:

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed," who is Christ. [Gal 3:16]

Adding later on:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. [Gal 3:26-29; emphasis mine]

Christians are Abraham’s seed (in fact the original Greek for “seed” is where we get the word “sperm”), because the Church of God is the new Israel. We are the new nation given the vineyard from the wicked growers to bear the fruits thereof (Matt 21:41-44).

Now let us ponder on the words of Christ Himself regarding salvation:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 10:33]

Only Christ is the Truth, the Life and the Way, and those who deny Him before men will be denied before the Father. What does Judaism as a whole do? It denies the divinity of Christ, and does not believe Him to be the Truth, the Life and the Way. Therefore, we must preach to the Jews as the early apostles did, and bring them to Christ, so that they may be brothers with us in a true covenant, and not a covenant of old that has worn away and become obsolete.
 
Ironically enough, before the nation of Israel came along and it was popular to speak of the political Israel as being the same as the ethnic and racial Israel of the Bible, Jews used this argument against Christianity.

I have studied the chief passages of Scripture, that constitute the grounds upon which the Jews argue against us; as where God said to Abraham: “I will make my covenant between me and thee, and with thy seed after thee, in their generations, for an everlasting covenant,” etc. Here the Jews brag, as the papists do upon the passage: “Thou art Peter.” [Martin Luther, *Table Talk
, No. 810]

No one is calling God a liar, because that is not what God said.

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [Jer 31:31-33; emphasis mine]

St. Paul refers to this passage in his epistle to the Hebrews, saying “if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second” (Heb 8:7), therefore God “has made the first obsolete…now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13). There’s no argument made here that a new covenant is being attached onto the old one - Paul is quite clearly arguing that the old one has left us.

But now let’s review the covenant made to Abraham, which you referred to:

And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. [Gen 17:17]

Christ was born a descendant of Abraham (Matt 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-34), in many ways fulfilling the prophecy to Abraham that “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen 12:3). Yet we know that Christ was rejected by a large number of Jews, for St. John writes:

He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:11-13]

He came to His own (the Jewish people, God’s chosen people), but His own did not receive Him. However, those who do receive Him - which includes Jews and Gentiles (remember by the time John wrote His gospel the Church was mixed between the two) were given the right to become children of God.

In his letter to the Galatians, St. Paul writes:

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed," who is Christ. [Gal 3:16]

Adding later on:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. [Gal 3:26-29; emphasis mine]

Christians are Abraham’s seed (in fact the original Greek for “seed” is where we get the word “sperm”), because the Church of God is the new Israel. We are the new nation given the vineyard from the wicked growers to bear the fruits thereof (Matt 21:41-44).

Now let us ponder on the words of Christ Himself regarding salvation:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]

“But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 10:33]

Only Christ is the Truth, the Life and the Way, and those who deny Him before men will be denied before the Father. What does Judaism as a whole do? It denies the divinity of Christ, and does not believe Him to be the Truth, the Life and the Way. Therefore, we must preach to the Jews as the early apostles did, and bring them to Christ, so that they may be brothers with us in a true covenant, and not a covenant of old that has worn away and become obsolete.

You quote right, Jesus is the seed. The Salvation from the Jews is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Who you know too is a Jew. The old covenant was not made invalid and done away with just because a new group of people are now chosen, because the recipients of the covenant for both remains the SAME.

If I tell you, write on this paper our contract between you and me. And I tell you a year later, now write on this paper our new contract between you and me. Does it mean the old contract is invalid? I gave you a new one possibly because the old one had something incomplete. BUT it is still between you and me.

The covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants is for perpetuity - This is an ETERNAL promise. The key lies in who are the descendants who are recognised AS JEWS. And this can be found in the book of Romans.
  1. Romans 2:28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and [true] circumcision is not something visible in the flesh.
It is very clear that the covenant has always been with the Jews. The classification of which now depends on God

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

PS. Do you not know that Jesus even referred to gentiles/pagans/non-jews as dogs?

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You quote right, Jesus is the seed. The Salvation from the Jews is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Who you know too is a Jew. The old covenant was not made invalid and done away with because the recipients of the covenant for both is the SAME.

If I tell you, write on this paper our contract between you and me. And I tell you a year later, now write on this paper our new contract between you and me. Does it mean the old contract is invalid? I gave you a new one possibly because the old one had something incomplete. BUT it is still between you and me.

The covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants is for perpetuity. The key lies in who are the descendants who are recognised AS JEWS. And this can be found in the book of Romans.
  1. Romans 2:28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and [true] circumcision is not something visible in the flesh.
It is very clear that the covenant has always been with the Jews. The classification of which now depends on God

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.
I’m afraid what you’ve done is basically ignore everything I said.

The “recipients of the covenant” are not the same for both because one covenant was for Israel, as in the Jews, and the new one is for the New Israel, the Church, or believers of Christ, who is the fulfillment of the Law. God clearly distinguishes between the old and new covenant in Jeremiah, clarifying that this was not the covenant made in the time of Moses. In that case, your contract metaphor is irrelevant.

I am also puzzled that you argue the old covenant “was not made invalid and done away with” when St. Paul clearly writes that the old covenant is “becoming obsolete” and “is ready to vanish away.” Furthermore, your reference to Abraham and his descendants ignores my argument as well as my citation of Paul that the true descendants of Abraham are the followers of Christ. As I said, Paul doesn’t use the word for seed (like a plant) but the literal kind of seed, for a human being (ie sperm).

Your reference to Romans 2:28 is also irrelevant, as that is discussing the issue of righteousness by circumcision and has nothing to do with the covenant or stating that the old covenant is still valid. In fact, the following verse says, “but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God,” and the following chapters discuss the inclusion of Gentile believers among Jewish believers (because we have to admit here that Paul is writing to Christians who are ethnic Jews, not to Christ-denying religious Jews).
 
The poor Jews- They make an eternal covenant with God based on the three concepts of God,Torah and Messiah. A while later an extremely small amount of Jews along with a great number of former pagans announce to the Jews that all three parts of the eternal covenant with God are incorrect and God has made a new covenant which corrects the one with the Jews and which is the antithesis in all aspects of the covenant between the Jews and God. Now this is totally unfair, because not only did God make an eternal covenant with the Jews that was apparently totally incorrect but the Jews, because of their eternal covenant, are now a group of people that cannot accept God’s correction of His original mistaken covenant. If that wasn’t bad enough it turns out that the Jews, are so slow they can’t even understand and interpret their own scriptures to be able to understand how everything they believe is wrong. Not only that, it turns out the Jews aren’t even the Jews anymore but have been replaced as the Jews by the group with the new antithetical covenant.
 
The poor Jews- They make an eternal covenant with God based on the three concepts of God,Torah and Messiah. A while later an extremely small amount of Jews along with a great number of former pagans announce to the Jews that all three parts of the eternal covenant with God are incorrect and God has made a new covenant which corrects the one with the Jews and which is the antithesis in all aspects of the covenant between the Jews and God. Now this is totally unfair, because not only did God make an eternal covenant with the Jews that was apparently totally incorrect but the Jews, because of their eternal covenant, are now a group of people that cannot accept God’s correction of His original mistaken covenant. If that wasn’t bad enough it turns out that the Jews, are so slow they can’t even understand and interpret their own scriptures to be able to understand how everything they believe is wrong. Not only that, it turns out the Jews aren’t even the Jews anymore but have been replaced as the Jews by the group with the new antithetical covenant.
Your religion has as much in common as the Jewish religion of the beginning of the first millenium as mine does.
 
Your religion has as much in common as the Jewish religion of the beginning of the first millenium as mine does.
Yes because Torah and oral law didn’t exist 🤷 or because there were no widespread Jewish communities throughout the Roman empire away from Judea and the Temple with the necessary adaptations:shrug: Nope, not only are the Jews no longer the Jews, Judaism stopped being Judaism and became something totally different in all its aspects. 🤷
 
The poor Jews- They make an eternal covenant with God based on the three concepts of God,Torah and Messiah. A while later an extremely small amount of Jews along with a great number of former pagans announce to the Jews that all three parts of the eternal covenant with God are incorrect and God has made a new covenant which corrects the one with the Jews and which is the antithesis in all aspects of the covenant between the Jews and God. Now this is totally unfair, because not only did God make an eternal covenant with the Jews that was apparently totally incorrect but the Jews, because of their eternal covenant, are now a group of people that cannot accept God’s correction of His original mistaken covenant. If that wasn’t bad enough it turns out that the Jews, are so slow they can’t even understand and interpret their own scriptures to be able to understand how everything they believe is wrong. Not only that, it turns out the Jews aren’t even the Jews anymore but have been replaced as the Jews by the group with the new antithetical covenant.
the problem is that we believe the Messiah came but jews deny Him.

so, we are a part of the New Covenant with the Jews who came to believe in the Messiah.
i dont think Jesus made a Covenant with only a few Jews. He made a Covenant with all Jews the whole House of David. it is up to all Jews to accept or continue to deny Him.

did you read the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man?
 
Yes because Torah and oral law didn’t exist 🤷 or because there were no widespread Jewish communities throughout the Roman empire away from Judea and the Temple with the necessary adaptations:shrug: Nope, not only are the Jews no longer the Jews, Judaism stopped being Judaism and became something totally different in all its aspects. 🤷
And none of those communities in the diaspora practiced their faith as the modern Jews do.
 
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