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Xavierlives
Guest
I think you are reading too much into my statement. My point is mainly one of, when Christ returns (and we know that will happen), there will be Jews who recognize him as the Messiah. That’s it. Nothing too deep.
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Xavierlives
Guest
NOTE: The post you quoted was really the 2nd attempt at it (CAF munched up the first draft.Restore the Covenant?
). I think I wrote the first one with a little more clarity.Maybe “restore” is not the right word. The question really stems from the eternal nature of the covenant (which is stated in the scripture). So if the covenant is eternal that means, well it is still active. If it is still active then what? Hence the nature of the thread.
I’m really just trying to get to the idea of whether Jews view the covenant active. If so, are they receiving the benefits? If not, how can they move toward God to receive the full benefits?
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Kaninchen
Guest
There’s always a problem with asking this kind of question of Jewish members because it carries with it Christian presumptions and we’re back to what I call the ‘Christianity = Judaism + Jesus/Judaism = Christianity - Jesus’ error.NOTE: The post you quoted was really the 2nd attempt at it (CAF munched up the first draft.
Maybe “restore” is not the right word. The question really stems from the eternal nature of the covenant (which is stated in the scripture). So if the covenant is eternal that means, well it is still active. If it is still active then what? Hence the nature of the thread.
I’m really just trying to get to the idea of whether Jews view the covenant active. If so, are they receiving the benefits? If not, how can they move toward God to receive the full benefits?
Now, we may ask ourselves all sorts of questions about our faith (perhaps the most famous of relatively recent times was ‘where was God at Auschwitz?’). The thing is that the answers for us come from within our context, nobody else’s. Of course, Christians will offer all sorts of views, perspectives, arguments but, for us, they might as well be offered from Hindus, Buddhists, Confucianists . . . . .
When you ask about ‘benefits’, who is to determine what ‘benefits’ means? In my daily life, I feel I receive many benefits from my religion. Whether a Christian regards them of benefits is of enormous insignificance to me, just as all sorts of things that Christians regard as highly significant are meaningless to me (and vice-versa).
How to move closer to God?
He has told you, O man, what is good,
And what the Lord requires of you:
Only to do justice
And to love goodness,
And to walk modestly with your God,
Then will your name achieve wisdom.
Micah 6:8
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fms
Guest
My views on Judaism/Jews are shaped by these two:
Judaism - JP II
Father, I am Jewish…
Jesus, who is God, preached to the Jews. In fact he says he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. The apostles did too. But this successor to the apostles thinks that now the matter should be left to the Holy Spirit.
Scripture always speaks of ‘a remnant’ my recent thinking has been what would that remnant be if the Jews ceased to exist.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, the faithful apostles and disciples were by all accounts faithful Jews and died as faithful Jews. At the beginning, Christianity was thought of as a Jewish sect. In fact this was the matter of the Jerusalem council, i.e. whether the gentile converts should convert to Judaism. Kaninchen statement is right even though Christianity/Catholicism is rooted in Judaism.
Judaism - JP II
Father, I am Jewish…
Jesus, who is God, preached to the Jews. In fact he says he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. The apostles did too. But this successor to the apostles thinks that now the matter should be left to the Holy Spirit.
Scripture always speaks of ‘a remnant’ my recent thinking has been what would that remnant be if the Jews ceased to exist.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, the faithful apostles and disciples were by all accounts faithful Jews and died as faithful Jews. At the beginning, Christianity was thought of as a Jewish sect. In fact this was the matter of the Jerusalem council, i.e. whether the gentile converts should convert to Judaism. Kaninchen statement is right even though Christianity/Catholicism is rooted in Judaism.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Romans 9:8 seems to contradict what you you said those two chapters said.
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Xavierlives
Guest
I’m not making any presumption. In fact, I was trying to remove the likelihood of presumption. The question was somewhat simplified to get to just that point. Of course I can only ask based on my understanding of our shared scripture, but I was thinking the very watered down question removed any “taint” of Christian influence.
So Christians cannot ask questions of the Jews? Although your self-reflecting, Jewish question almost speaks volumes in itself.
Well I am assuming God would be the one deciding the benefits.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
For the benefit of Nine_Two, here’s the passage he referred to:
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. [Rom 9:8; NKJV]
See in addition my post here.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Of course you can, just as a Muslim, say, could ask similar questions of Christians. The problem for a Christian responding would be similar - two different paradigms, two different sets of presumptions.
But you asked whether we felt that we were receiving the benefits.
The answers to your questions ‘is the Covenant still active’ and ‘are we receiving the full benefits’ are Yes and Yes. The implication is, however, that, somehow we need to justify those affirmations. I was pointing out, though, that the answers to those questions lie within our own context not somebody else’s.
For example, ask me whether I believe that Judaism provides from within itself the route to salvation and I’ll just answer ‘Err?’
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Dokimas
Guest
Romans 11:
1 ¶ I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?
4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
There will be the day of judgement. until then, God lets everyone live, muslims, atheists, budhism, Catholics, induism, Jews, and so forth.
do you believe the NT?
“Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying: Master, we would see a sign from thee. Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here. The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold a greater than Solomon here” (Matth., 12, 39[sic]-42).
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Kaninchen
Guest
Obviously not.
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Kaninchen
Guest
From experience over the years, I’ve found that Christians tend to think that Judaism ‘works’ like Christianity - that it’s ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, that Jews are, in a sense, ‘Christians waiting for Messiah’ - and it doesn’t, isn’t and we aren’t. This often means that discussions become dialogues of the deaf.
There was meaning in my ‘salvation’/Err?’ allusion, by the way.
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Dokimas
Guest
Minus Jesus is like taking $1,000,000 out of an account with $1,000,000.01 in it. Jesus means a lot when comparing the experience of a Jew vs the experience of a Christian. Lest I be misunderstood in my analogy, Jewishness is worth $1,000,000.01 and so is Christianity. That’s what Paul said in Romans 3. Actually I may be mistaken, Paul puts more value on Jewishness.
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brb3
Guest
Yet, Jesus had gentile blood. Its not the purebreed, genetic bloodlines that count. All of our genes derive from Adam/Eva’s anyways.
Once the Jews had ample opportunity to receive the Gospel of Christ, the torch was passed to the gentile nations.
Nevertheless, the Church of Christ is built on the 12 Apostles, and headed by Peter [the New Covenant Joshua]. Built upon Jews, and shared with all the nations.
Who is the TRUE JEW ? Not by blood, but by heart — evidenced by Faith & Works, sealed in blood of Christ via Baptism into Christ.
Rahab the gentile Harlot … brought success to the early Hebrews. Jesus’ bloodlines came via this gentile … become a true Jew. No longer by ‘old covenant’ circumcision … but by New Covenant Baptism.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Well, what Paul may or may not have said is all ‘Harry Potter’ to me, of course.
The question of plus and minus is not numeric.
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Dokimas
Guest
I like numbers so using numbers as an illustration of a point comes easy to me. Jews aren’t minus, they’re loved by God.
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Timothy17
Guest
If you won’t listen to a zealous Jew, who is and was more familiar with your own religion than you could ever be, who else will you listen to? Paul made sacrifices in the Temple, and worshiped in the Synagogues, who are you to pretend to know more than he? Neither faith nor reason can give any credit to such a willfully and self-imposed ignorance.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
why not? many Jews do or came to believe.
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