Jewish responses to Jesus as the Messiah

[KyivAndrew]

Furthermore, I have just read on the Wikipedia free online encyclopedia that Zohar, iii.288b, says the following: " The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archtypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. These are: ] first, secret, hidden ‘Wisdom’; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is threfore called for man ‘Non-Existing’ [Ajin] ’ "

Good grief! how can anyone of Jewish descent read all this, especially those who reverence the Zohar, and not believe in Christianity, or how can they say that Christians are blasphemous when they worship the Divine Son of God, Jesus, if many of their own rabbis believe God is Three in One as is the Christians’ Holy Trinity?

Look, I am not Jewish but I think you misunderstand. There are various branches of Judaism and the Zohar, to my mind, is mostly studied vociferously by the Ultra-Orthodox such as those from Chabad and others. The Zohar and after it the Tanya are Jewish mystical texts which were used by famous Hasidim like the Baal Shem Tov. Some aspects of Jewish mysticism were frowned upon by other Jews like the Gaon of Vilna. Chabad, for instance, may believe in the transmigration of souls after death, in the late Menachem Schneerson as Messiah, in panentheism, in God having Divine Attributes, in looking for mystical meaning behind Hebrew letters in the Bible. Other Jews may be wholly silent on what lies, if anything, in the afterlife. There has always been a mystical/rational dynamic to Judaism in history I think. (Maimonides vis-a-vis Nahmanides for instance).

A friend I went to University with went from Reform Judaism to Orthodoxy and has recently published a book on the Talmud. His practice and beliefs changed a bit. I also was hooked for awhile on a rabbinical show because one of my brother’s old university profs was the go-to-guy on “philosophy”. For that matter, the show also used to get one of my profs, Straussian Clifford Orwin, analyzing Maimonides. So while pretty ignorant, I am not totally out there.

To suggest as you do that it’s as simple as reading the Zohar and, voila, Jews become Christians is off-the-mark.

Yes, Jews can believe in Messiah. But most don’t believe Messiah is God (apart from Jewish converts to Christianity as here on CAF obviously ). A strict monotheism may not allow this. One can try to make links from the Ruah to the Holy Spirit as here on the Vatican site, vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01021998_p-24_en.html, but that’s about it and it becomes a matter of heart and mind after that.

I think brighter minds than ours have wrestled with this and, ultimately, I think it’s in each person’s and God’s hands as to how they approach Jesus. Gotta run for now. Take care.

 

[DLT]

I’m not an expert on Judaism so you lost me on those posts DLT. Who is Zohar and what is that stuff you quoted from him? And are there any other non-canonical sources I should be aware of? I’m clueless outside of the Bible

Cool Dude, I was referring to the quotations on the Christian website (Catholic I think) that Unworthy Apostle, a Maronite Christian, posted on here. The website has many quotations from the various books of the oral traditions of the Jewish rabbis. Some of these books are the Zohar, the Talmud and the Midrash. Most of these books were composed after the death of Jesus Christ, but many of the oral traditions in them were around before and during the life of Christ and were passed down by word of mouth. The Lord Jesus referred to them when he called them “traditions of men”. Some I am sure he approved and others he did not.

Go back and click on the website Unworthy Apostle posted, and you will see what I mean and get a lot of good information.

 

[coolduude]

Thanks! I’ll be sure to do that

 

[DLT]

A correction: Unworthy Apostle is a Maronite Catholic and the website he posted is a Catholic one. David Armstrong, a Catholic convert, who writes on that website knows a lot about Judaism and the oral tradtions of the Jewish people.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I also think I wasn’t clear enough in my earlier post. Obviously we as Christians look to the Old Testament prophecies, especially of the Suffering Servant (the interpretation of which Jewish believers here may not share of course). But there also is the question of the Greatest Miracle of all to us Christians. As Bishop Tom Wright (esteemed by many Catholics) of the Anglican communion has written about the uniqueness of Christ:

“That, I believe, is the result of the investigation I have conducted. There are many other things to say about Jesus’ resurrection. But, as far as I am concerned, the historian may and must say that all other explanations for why Christianity arose, and why it took the shape it did, are far less convincing as historical explanations than the one the early Christians themselves offer: that Jesus really did rise from the dead on Easter morning, leaving an empty tomb behind him. The origins of Christianity, the reason why this new movement came into being and took the unexpected form it did, and particularly the strange mutations it produced within the Jewish hope for resurrection and the Jewish hope for a Messiah, are best explained by saying that something happened, two or three days after Jesus’ death, for which the accounts in the four gospels are the least inadequate expression we have.”

Anyone interested should try to read the whole article which also compares Jewish belief in the afterlife to Christian.

ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_Resurrection.htm

And also this article.
ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Early_Traditions.htm

 

[DLT]

Also, Kyiv Andrew, there have been many miracles in the lives of a multitude of Christians. Although, I have never had spontaneous healings, many have had them. I have had, though, too many “coincidences” happen in by life in answer to prayer, etc. that I know they were minor miracles.

I mentioned once before how I had the urge to go to a particular Catholic church one night even though I wanted to stay home. I just kept getting the urge to go there, and it would not stop. I wore a pro-life symbol on my coat at that time that had been blessed by Pope John Paul II and given to me by a pro-life group. Well, to make a long story short, I ended up going to the church and found myself helping a woman who was in a wheel chair. When I told a Catholic friend that I felt I had been “called” there, she told me I probably was called by the Holy Spirit. She said that the woman probably knew her son could not stay after he dropped her off in his truck, It was late, and she prayed that there would be someone to help her. It was quite “coincidental” that after the lady was done purchasing a picture of Christ for her son at the giftshop there, having it blessed with my help and obtaining some holy water for her home that her son drove up in his truck to take her home. I have had many such “coincidences” that helped me or other people. Sometimes through the intercession of certain Saints, too. Nothing will increase one’s faith more than experience. Such experiences are also mentioned in the Bible.

 

[coolduude]

Again I ask you Chosen People, do you have a response?

Otherwise I will be forced to assume that you concede the argument.

 

[DLT]

I said in my last post that I had never had any spontaneous healings myself, but God did get rid of a wart on one of my daughter’s hands, twice. I had taken her to the doctor the first time, and the medicine he used caused scarring, and the wart came back. I did not have the money at that time to take her to another doctor, so I prayed over it with the Lourdes water, and it left. About seven to ten years later it came back, and the Lourdes water healed it again. So far, it has not returned.

 

[antunesaa]

How is it that what should have been a minor cult (had it been false) exploded over night to become the largest religion on the planet (until recent times where Muslims have out birthed Christians)?

Actually that’s not true. Muslims are roughly as numerous as Catholics, who are a bit less than one fifth of the world population; but they surely do not outnumber all Christians, who are about one third of the world population. All these are not necessarily pious people.

 

[the_Assyrian_1]

Dear Coolduude,

This is for you… my attempt to convince you that Jesus was the Messiah, from your own WORD the bible…

I heard a testimony of a Jewish convert to Christianity and I got this verse form Him… its Isaiah 53 where it says the following:

---

"…v2 … He had no form or charm to attract us,
no beauty to win our hearts;
he was despised, the lowest of men,
a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering,
one from whom, as it were,
we avert our gaze,
despised, for whom we had no regard.
Yet ours were the sufferings
he was bearing,
ours the sorrows he was carrying
while we thought of him
as someone being punished
and struck with affliction by God;
5 whereas he was being wounded for our rebellions,
crushed because of our guilt;
the punishment reconciling us fell on him,
and we have been healed by his bruises.
We had all gone astray like sheep,
each taking his own way,
and Yahweh brought the acts of rebellion
of all of us to bear on him.
ill treated and afflicted,
he never opened his mouth,
like a lamb led to the slaughter-house,
like a sheep dumb beofre its shearers
he never opened his mouth.

8 Forcibly, after sentence, he was taken.
…
10 It was Yahweh’s good pleasure
to crush him with pain;
if he gives his life as a sin offering,
he will see his offspring
and prolong his life,
and through him
Yahweh’s good pleasure will be done.

verse 11…

After the ordeal he has endured,
he will see the light and be content.
By his knowledge, the upright one,
my servant will Justify many
by taking their guilt on himself

verse 12 is glorious also…

Hence I shall give him a portion
with the many
and he will share the booty
with the mighty,
for having exposed himself to death
and for being counted
as one of the rebellious,
whereas he was bearing the sin of many
and interceding for the rebellious."

---

I can give you some quotes from Pslams where David saw his glory and prophecied about Him… Pslam 22 v1 David writes:

---

My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

---

He cried this out on the cross, see Gospels.

You can also check out the following texts which testify as Jesus as the Messiah, (all point to Jesus if I may add!!) Isaiah 7:14-16, Isaiah 40:3-5 (this refers to John the Baptist), Micah 5…

There are more referrences, if you want them I can let you know…
I hope this is a starting point to convince you of the significance of Jesus inthe Old testament… and thereafter for us in the new covenant…

Lets not forget that He came to “complete” the Law and the prohpets. In doing so, He magnified the Law so that none would be justified throught the Old mosaic law. In doing so He gave us a New covenant to adhere to in His body and blood and also revealed to us the commandments of God. And if I check my bible, God had been telling the Jewish people all along, how to entreaty God with acts such as “breaking their bread with the hungry” see Isaiah 58:7… and furthermore he quoted this Almsgiving in Luke 11 v39/41talking to the scribes, saying, "give alms and all things will be clean unto you… "…

I hope this is a starting point for your journey into Christiandom…

I pray that you may find Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour…

Mark

 

[Bob4BVM]

Dear Coolduude,

This is for you… my attempt to convince you that Jesus was the Messiah, from your own WORD the bible…

I heard a testimony of a Jewish convert to Christianity and I got this verse form Him… its Isaiah 53 where it says the following:

---

"…v2 … He had no form or charm to attract us,
no beauty to win our hearts;
he was despised, the lowest of men,
a man of sorrows, familiar with suffering,
one from whom, as it were,
we avert our gaze,
despised, for whom we had no regard.
Yet ours were the sufferings
he was bearing,
ours the sorrows he was carrying
while we thought of him
as someone being punished
and struck with affliction by God;
5 whereas he was being wounded for our rebellions,
crushed because of our guilt;
the punishment reconciling us fell on him,
and we have been healed by his bruises.
We had all gone astray like sheep,
each taking his own way,
and Yahweh brought the acts of rebellion
of all of us to bear on him.
ill treated and afflicted,
he never opened his mouth,
like a lamb led to the slaughter-house,
like a sheep dumb beofre its shearers
he never opened his mouth.

8 Forcibly, after sentence, he was taken.
…
10 It was Yahweh’s good pleasure
to crush him with pain;
if he gives his life as a sin offering,
he will see his offspring
and prolong his life,
and through him
Yahweh’s good pleasure will be done.

verse 11…

After the ordeal he has endured,
he will see the light and be content.
By his knowledge, the upright one,
my servant will Justify many
by taking their guilt on himself

verse 12 is glorious also…

Hence I shall give him a portion
with the many
and he will share the booty
with the mighty,
for having exposed himself to death
and for being counted
as one of the rebellious,
whereas he was bearing the sin of many
and interceding for the rebellious."

---

I can give you some quotes from Pslams where David saw his glory and prophecied about Him… Pslam 22 v1 David writes:

---

My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

---

He cried this out on the cross, see Gospels.

You can also check out the following texts which testify as Jesus as the Messiah, (all point to Jesus if I may add!!) Isaiah 7:14-16, Isaiah 40:3-5 (this refers to John the Baptist), Micah 5…

There are more referrences, if you want them I can let you know…
I hope this is a starting point to convince you of the significance of Jesus inthe Old testament… and thereafter for us in the new covenant…

Lets not forget that He came to “complete” the Law and the prohpets. In doing so, He magnified the Law so that none would be justified throught the Old mosaic law. In doing so He gave us a New covenant to adhere to in His body and blood and also revealed to us the commandments of God. And if I check my bible, God had been telling the Jewish people all along, how to entreaty God with acts such as “breaking their bread with the hungry” see Isaiah 58:7… and furthermore he quoted this Almsgiving in Luke 11 v39/41talking to the scribes, saying, "give alms and all things will be clean unto you… "…

I hope this is a starting point for your journey into Christiandom…

I pray that you may find Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour…

Mark

Good points all.
Even more interesting is that the verses from Isiah 53 was written ~ 700 years BEFORE Jesus’ birth !

 

[Bob4BVM]

Also, Kyiv Andrew, there have been many miracles in the lives of a multitude of Christians. Although, I have never had spontaneous healings, many have had them. I have had, though, too many “coincidences” happen in by life in answer to prayer, etc. that I know they were minor miracles.

I mentioned once before how I had the urge to go to a particular Catholic church one night even though I wanted to stay home. I just kept getting the urge to go there, and it would not stop. I wore a pro-life symbol on my coat at that time that had been blessed by Pope John Paul II and given to me by a pro-life group. Well, to make a long story short, I ended up going to the church and found myself helping a woman who was in a wheel chair. When I told a Catholic friend that I felt I had been “called” there, she told me I probably was called by the Holy Spirit. She said that the woman probably knew her son could not stay after he dropped her off in his truck, It was late, and she prayed that there would be someone to help her. It was quite “coincidental” that after the lady was done purchasing a picture of Christ for her son at the giftshop there, having it blessed with my help and obtaining some holy water for her home that her son drove up in his truck to take her home. I have had many such “coincidences” that helped me or other people. Sometimes through the intercession of certain Saints, too. Nothing will increase one’s faith more than experience. Such experiences are also mentioned in the Bible.

Thanks for bringing this up DLT,
I many threads here on CAF there are folks who are busy trying to “prove” , or “disprove” everything about God and Christianity.
The one thing that they almost always ignore is the strongest, most modern evidence of all–that of personal experience.
Of course it may seem way too subjective for opponents to take seriously, but for the persons who have had such an experience, it is the strongest evidence possible.
I am finding this is alot more common than I once would have suspected.

Thru my own life experiences and those of others, I am also beginning to suspect that the verse which says “…we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” may refer to people on earth, as well as those in Heaven.

We need to remember that what we may label a ‘miracle’ is, after all, just everyday stuff for God !

 

[Robertwilliam]

We must remember that Jews are bound for hell unless they repent of their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah

 

[lelhajj]

Thanks for bringing this up DLT,
I many threads here on CAF there are folks who are busy trying to “prove” , or “disprove” everything about God and Christianity.
The one thing that they almost always ignore is the strongest, most modern evidence of all–that of personal experience.
Of course it may seem way too subjective for opponents to take seriously, but for the persons who have had such an experience, it is the strongest evidence possible.
I am finding this is alot more common than I once would have suspected.

Thru my own life experiences and those of others, I am also beginning to suspect that the verse which says “…we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” may refer to people on earth, as well as those in Heaven.

We need to remember that what we may label a ‘miracle’ is, after all, just everyday stuff for God !

I do certainly agree with you. God is ever present, before, now and after. That medical miracle i have witnessed, me as a general surgeon and also to the Harvard oncologist surgeon who have witnessed it, we were speechless, marvel at the mercy of our Lord. I could not find answers to why it was granted to my close relative and neither him. But the fact, the miracle is there. The cancer patient is alive and free from cancer. I don’t know what religion is the other doctor, but, i can tell you, he also have realized and marveled that miracles do exist and are happening. I thank God everyday for such blessing, me, somebody unworthy of such a grace. Jesus is here, present in this earth, you ask for Him and He will be present. No need to look in any other religions, He is here with us!