Jewish responses to Jesus as the Messiah

[FanChan]

Just curious… Do Jews still know which bloodline they come from? Do Davidic Jews know they come from the Line of David? If not, how will anyone ever know if the Messiah comes from the line of David? Wouldn’t this mean that no converted Jew, who isn’t a Jew by blood, or their descendants could ever be the Messiah? Since the adoption part isn’t viable for Christ (being adopted by Joseph, hence the line of David) I imagine that wouldn’t work for modern day Jews-by-conversion. I dunno, it seems a bit strange to me. I’ve never thought too much about this before.

Also, I just want to point out that time and again, the Popes have taught that we should have profound respect for the Jewish people, for they are the chosen people, that the covenant God made with them is eternal. I believe that the events cited earlier in the thread, how the Jews have encountered persecution that very well should have wiped them out but they survived, are evidence to God’s continued love for them. But of course we are instructed to continue to pray for them, that they’ll open their hearts to the fullness of God’s revelation, primarily through Christ.

 

[lelhajj]

Well I know all about the Christians in Lebanon and the Palestinian Arab Muslims because between 1982 - 1985 I did five reserve duties with the IDF defending the Christians of Southern Lebanon and rendering them medical services, during which time Yasser Arafat and the PLO was trying to decimate the Christian population. Now if you are ever in Ein Kerem Jerusalem I can show you a Catholic orphanage run by a Catholic order of nuns (which by the way has an excellent relationship with Jews and the Jewish state). It was established in 1860 in order to take in Christian orphans whose families were massacred that year in Lebanon by non Christian Arabs. Or perhaps you would like to go to a lecture talking about the prosperous Christian community in Bethlehem under Israeli rule before it was turned over to the Palestinian Arab authority and how they ruined and persecuted the Christian community there. Or perhaps you would like to come to my courtroom which stands some one hundred meters from a Russian Orthodox Church while I the great grandson of Jews who fled Russia in the 19th Century from anti-Semitic pogroms, help insure that Israel remains the one place in the Middle East where Christians have full rights and full freedom of religion. And no, despite what you wrote, Jews do not go around indiscriminately killing Palestinian Arabs (they do allow them access to the Supreme Court of Israel and they face an army with the world’s highest moral standards- but that probably doesn’t fit into your point about the Jews). Give my best to all the “wonderful Jew doctors” next time you see them.

I have wonderful palestinian friends and very close family in lebanon and this is not what they claim about the jews. These are people who had to leave their countries and some remain there.The world is wittness of what Jews do, as well as Jesus, i am not the only one who has this opinion. I wish i agree with you, but, reality makes me realize i can not.

 

[lelhajj]

And let me tell you something, don’t be so arrogant in your posts, because arrogant people can not see their own mistakes, that is precisely their major defect. But, anyway, you will never see them, because of the above mentioned.

 

[lelhajj]

i forgot to tell you choosen, thank you for the invitation to your courtroom, but, i prefer God’s courtroom, which is really fair to everybody. thank you anyway.

 

[Bishop93]

I have wonderful palestinian friends and very close family in lebanon and this is not what they claim about the jews. These are people who had to leave their countries and some remain there.The world is wittness of what Jews do, as well as Jesus, i am not the only one who has this opinion. I wish i agree with you, but, reality makes me realize i can not.

Are you not aware of the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Israel right now?

Of course they say that!..Chosen People was talking about history.

“The world is witness of what Jews do”…What do they do exactly?

 

[DLT]

The thing is I am able to read and understand the Tanach in the original hebrew. If you want an accurate english translation of the Tanach I would suggest the Stone edition.

Actually both Mathew and Christian translations of the Tanach are probably the strongest testament for a Jew against Christianity. Messianic prophesies are invented and then attributed to Jesus, Non Messianic prophesies are turned into messianic prophesies. Verses in the Tanach are taken out of context in the Christian scriptures, Verses in the Tanach are mistranslated, words and phrases are invented and tenses altered. Verses in the Tanach are misappropriated to support messianic claims about Jesus.

I will accept your challenge if you wish but what is the point? It is easier for you as a gentile than for me as a Jew to get into the world to come. I certainly have no need to change or convince you. On the other hand a Jew (not a gentile) who worships your man-god is committing idolatry and will be cut off forever from his people and from God in this world and the
The Roman pagans who became Roman Catholics have made a step toward understanding the concept of God and Torah. When the Messiah ben David does come there will be no doubt, it will be empirically verifiable and there will be no need to start fiddling with texts and inventing “second comings”. All mankind will eventually be able to perceive and to grasp the concept of the One Eternal God without giving Him an animate or inanimate form, all will eventually come to know and understand both oral and written Torah.

The intellectual transition of all people to the Jewish concepts of God and Torah, to ethical monotheism, is a natural process that comes in time. A Catholic Church may be filled with statues or icons. However they are not found in latter day Islam or latter developments in Christianity.

If you want to study the Christian concept of Yeshua bar Yosef it is not to be found in the Tanach. Rather look to where it finally developed and was accepted, the pagan populations of Rome. As Celsus, a pagan satirist, wrote to Origen, an early Church leader, around 180 c.e. “How is Christianity unique? Are the pagan gods to be accounted as myths whereas theirs is to be believed as historical? In truth, there is nothing at all unusual about what Christians believe” (quote found in Twenty-Six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Norman Asher).

The law against the making of images was not an absolute, even in the Old Testament. There were plenty of images in the Temple of Solomon, including the cheribim on the Ark of the Covenant and the bulls used for washing. Only the images commanded by God, of course, were allowed.

The same applies to the Catholic Church and the other Christian Churches. A Catholic believes that St. Peter and his successors and Apostles (bishops) were given the power by Jesus Christ to decided what images could be used in the Church. Even today almost all churches use some sort of image of Jesus Christ, icons, statues, or pictures. My Methodist grandmother refused to let me have a shell lamp with a crucifix that a Greek Orthodox lady had given me. She said it was an idol. Yet the Methodist Church gave out Bibles and Sunday School papers with images (pictures of Christ and the Saints) on them. She also let me have a small framed picture of the Virgin and Christ Child. According to the Commandment, it makes no difference if the image is an icon, statue or picture. They are all the same if not commanded by God. Therefore, I keep to the Churches teaching that we can have images approved by the Church but not pagan images. The images used by the Church are of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary or Christians who lived good moral lives before they died and believed in the Holy Trinity. Looking at them helps lead us to holiness. As far as the Christian religion not being unique, neither is all of Judiasm. Many things in Judiasm are also in some of the pagan religions, although much is not. I quite frankly have trouble believing in a God who punishes but has never felt my temptations, joys, pains, sorrows, etc., but in Jesus Christ I have a God that loved me and others so much that he was willingly to humble himself and come down and feel our temptations, sorrows, pain, etc. yet without sin, and he overcame death and arose. He also died making reparation for our sins. He was the true, pure lamb that the sacrifices in the Old Testament only foreshadowed. That to me is unique.

 

[DLT]

The Jews indeed understand the fig tree story as one of the examples in the Christian scriptures which shows the figure of Jesus to not be a perfect being. The violation of Jewish law is a sin. Jesus cursed a fig tree because it did not have fruit which caused it to wither and die (Mathew 21:18-19) even though it wasn’t the season for figs ((Mark 11:13). This sin directly violated the Torah’s prohibition against destroying fruit trees even those of an enemy in time of war (Deuteronomy 20:19). This story is especially problematic because if Jesus was the “son god” and could perform miracles he also had the power to cause the tree to bear fruit instead of killing it. This behaviour can be compared to the story of Rabbi Yossi’s son who wanted to feed his workers. Rabbi Yossi cried out “Fig tree, fig tree send forth your fruit” and a barren fig tree produced figs and they ate" (Talmud Tannis 24a) - (source: Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Asher Norman)

The law you mentioned was a specific law for a specific time and specific situation. It did not apply to all times and all situations. Jesus Christ cursed the fig tree, and it did die. I hate to tell you this but it represented Israel’s punishment for its fruitlessness (at that time). The scribes and the pharisees were so “tied up into knots” over their interpretation of the Law at that time that they considered healing a man on the Sabbath a breakage of the Sabbath law, even though they would take one of their animals out of a pit on the Sabbath so it would not be injured. Jesus Christ castigated them for this. Which is more important a man or an animal? Also, even today I have heard of Jewish rabbis who argued over whether it is considered breaking the Sabbath if one turns on an electrical light switch. I am sure Jesus of Nazareth would have no problem with this. He would say, “Turn it on.” The Catholic Church only forbids hard work and unnecessary shopping to be breaking the Sabbath (Sunday for us). Sunday, for us Christians, is to be a time of resting from hard unnecessary labor and worshipping God, but it should also be a day of joy for Christians, especially since the Lord arose on that day. Of course, there are always overscupulous people in all religions, but most of the scribes and pharisees were way over the line during New Testament times…

 

[DLT]

I did not mean that the Jewish people of today suffer for what some of their ancestors did. We all suffer for our own sins, not someone else’s sins.

 

[chosen_people]

The law you mentioned was a specific law for a specific time and specific situation. It did not apply to all times and all situations. Jesus Christ cursed the fig tree, and it did die. I hate to tell you this but it represented Israel’s punishment for its fruitlessness (at that time). The scribes and the pharisees were so “tied up into knots” over their interpretation of the Law at that time that they considered healing a man on the Sabbath a breakage of the Sabbath law, even though they would take one of their animals out of a pit on the Sabbath so it would not be injured. Jesus Christ castigated them for this. Which is more important a man or an animal? Also, even today I have heard of Jewish rabbis who argued over whether it is considered breaking the Sabbath if one turns on an electrical light switch. I am sure Jesus of Nazareth would have no problem with this. He would say, “Turn it on.” The Catholic Church only forbids hard work and unnecessary shopping to be breaking the Sabbath (Sunday for us). Sunday, for us Christians, is to be a time of resting from hard unnecessary labor and worshipping God, but it should also be a day of joy for Christians, especially since the Lord arose on that day. Of course, there are always overscupulous people in all religions, but most of the scribes and pharisees were way over the line during New Testament times…

Interesting point about the Jewish Yeshua bar Yosef and cursing the Pharisees. Deuteronomy 17:6-11 instructs the Jewish people in every generation to designate and follow without deviation a Torah leader or group. At the time of Yeshua there were two dominant Jewish religious groups. The Pharisees who were scrupulous concerning both the written and oral law and the Sadducees who did not keep the Oral law and were considered heretics by the Pharisees. Yeshua designated the Pharisees "…the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat; All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do (Mathew 22:2,3)

Under Jewish law it is usually a sin to publicly make negative statements about a fellow Jew. If the statements are true that is the sin of “lashon hara”. If the statements are not true than it is the even greater sin of slander (Leviticus 19:16-18;Exodus 23:1;Leviticus 22:32;25:17).

Having stated that the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, Yeshua unleashes a hateful diatribe against them (Mathew 23:23-33). So the Christian scriptures have portrayed the Jewish Yeshua as sinning either by violating the laws of “lashon hara” or by violating the laws against slander or both.

Not only that but Yeshua in the Christian scriptures made a curse : "But whoever says: “You fool”, shall be liable to the hell of fire (Mathew 5:22). Ironically Yeshua called the Pharisees “fools” in Mathew 23:17,19 and in Luke 11:40 thereby, according to Mathew and Luke, making himself the recipient of his own curse.

(based on the book Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Asher Norman)

 

[coolduude]

@Chosenpeople:

Matthew 22:2,3 doesn’t say that. This is the actual text of Matthew 22:2,3 (NIV):

2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Anyway, Jesus unleashed that ‘angry diatribe’ for a good reason. The Pharisees were like this:
*8" ‘These people honor me with their lips,
******but their hearts are far from me.
*9They worship me in vain;
******their teachings are but rules taught by men.’"
(Matthew 15:8-9)

Jesus went into the Temple to correct them and get them back on track. And yes, in this sense they were fools. It is comparable to the government passing unconstitutional laws yet calling them constitutional and enforcing them. Jesus was right calling them fools. When he said “anyone calling someone a fool is liable for hell” (paraphrased) he meant that if someone calls another a fool in anger, he is liable for hell. For example, if the government passes a good law but you don’t like and you call them ‘**** fools!!’ then you’re liable for hell. Jesus called the Pharisees fools for a good, righteous cause, NOT out of anger. Thus he did not fall into His own curse.

Make sense?

 

[chosen_people]

@Chosenpeople:

Matthew 22:2,3 doesn’t say that. This is the actual text of Matthew 22:2,3 (NIV):

2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Anyway, Jesus unleashed that ‘angry diatribe’ for a good reason. The Pharisees were like this:
*8" ‘These people honor me with their lips,
******but their hearts are far from me.
*9They worship me in vain;
******their teachings are but rules taught by men.’"
(Matthew 15:8-9)

Jesus went into the Temple to correct them and get them back on track. And yes, in this sense they were fools. It is comparable to the government passing unconstitutional laws yet calling them constitutional and enforcing them. Jesus was right calling them fools. When he said “anyone calling someone a fool is liable for hell” (paraphrased) he meant that if someone calls another a fool in anger, he is liable for hell. For example, if the government passes a good law but you don’t like and you call them ‘**** fools!!’ then you’re liable for hell. Jesus called the Pharisees fools for a good, righteous cause, NOT out of anger. Thus he did not fall into His own curse.

Make sense?

sorry for the typo Mathew 23:2,3 (NIV)

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

However you are missing my point. Yeshua according to Christians was a god. Since God is sinless and perfect it would therefore seem to follow that Christians would believe that their son-god was perfect. Yet the Christian scriptures have their god misquoting and inventing parts of the Tanach (you figure God would know his bible),presenting wisdom stolen right out of the Tanach without attribution, lying, acting immorally toward a non Jew, making extremely morally problematic statements, acting in contravention to his own teachings,sinning and even being baptized for the remission of sin

Yeshua was executed by Romans for being an anti Roman zealot. His last words according to Mark and Mathew (yes even here the Christian scriptures contradict themselves) were a complaint to God "My God, my God why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:34 Mathew 27:46- How God can forsake Himself is another story:shrug.

Around the time of Yeshua there lived Rabbi Akiva, a Jewish sage who led an exemplary life. The Romans martyred him by using a rake to tear the skin from his body. His last words were ones not of complaint to God but of praise “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One”.

 

[FanChan]

Yeshua was executed by Romans for being an anti Roman zealot. His last words according to Mark and Mathew (yes even here the Christian scriptures contradict themselves) were a complaint to God "My God, my God why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:34 Mathew 27:46- How God can forsake Himself is another story:shrug.

Around the time of Yeshua there lived Rabbi Akiva, a Jewish sage who led an exemplary life. The Romans martyred him by using a rake to tear the skin from his body. His last words were ones not of complaint to God but of praise “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One”.

Regarding Jesus’ last words, I’m pretty sure you’d know that those are the first words of Psalm 22, and that that psalm is not a lament, but a hymn of praise to God. The very next verse shows that even the Jews standing around him knew what he was quoting. “‘Listen, he is calling for Elijah!’” (Mark 15:35) How does a complaint to God equal calling for Elijah?

Also, are you going to completely ignore my previous question, or was it just swallowed up in the rest of the discussion and went unnoticed? I’m really curious to know.

 

[coolduude]

@Chosenpeople:

alright I kind of see the point you’re trying to make: that Jesus was a ‘bad man’ and not God.

But I think I rebutted your first argument for this well (see my previous post). So what other examples of Jesus ‘sining’ have you found? You list vague examples, but are there other specific events the Gospels say happened that proves Jesus a sinner?

I put sining in quotes because as a Christian I believe Jesus was sinless.

Oh, I won’t cover the last part of your post; FanChan has that covered.

 

[mikemar]

Have not read ALL of the posts, but website listing Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah is definitely worthwhile reading. But, using only the Torah, I have something that either was not mentioned at
simpletoremember.com/arti…/jewsandjesus/ , or if it was there, I missed it.

In Deuteronomy, the last book of the Torah, chapter 18, it says that God will raise up another “prophet” like Moses. What does it mean to be “like Moses?” It means at least 3 things that I can figure out.

One, it means that this “second” Moses WILL BE a prophet.

Two, one of the things that made Moses unique among the prophets is that God spoke to him face to face. We have that in Numbers 12, and in Deuteronomy 34.

And 3, we know that the other thing that made Moses unique is that he was the law giver.

So when Deuteronomy, the last book of the Torah, says that there will be another prophet like Moses, there are at least those 3 things that will characterize him. What about that idea of a law giver? I’m not a theologian nor a priest, but it seems to me that if he were to be like Moses, this other prophet would need to be a NEW law giver, not someone bringing a copy of the first law. Moses gave the Jews a NEW law, so another prophet like Moses would also have to give a NEW law, otherwise he would not be like Moses.

I suppose that a learned Jew might say that my English version of the Torah is translated incorrectly, and he could be right. But so far I have not found any corrections for those verses in Deuteronomy nor Numbers.

 

[DLT]

Interesting point about the Jewish Yeshua bar Yosef and cursing the Pharisees. Deuteronomy 17:6-11 instructs the Jewish people in every generation to designate and follow without deviation a Torah leader or group. At the time of Yeshua there were two dominant Jewish religious groups. The Pharisees who were scrupulous concerning both the written and oral law and the Sadducees who did not keep the Oral law and were considered heretics by the Pharisees. Yeshua designated the Pharisees "…the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat; All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do (Mathew 22:2,3)

Under Jewish law it is usually a sin to publicly make negative statements about a fellow Jew. If the statements are true that is the sin of “lashon hara”. If the statements are not true than it is the even greater sin of slander (Leviticus 19:16-18;Exodus 23:1;Leviticus 22:32;25:17).

Having stated that the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, Yeshua unleashes a hateful diatribe against them (Mathew 23:23-33). So the Christian scriptures have portrayed the Jewish Yeshua as sinning either by violating the laws of “lashon hara” or by violating the laws against slander or both.

Not only that but Yeshua in the Christian scriptures made a curse : "But whoever says: “You fool”, shall be liable to the hell of fire (Mathew 5:22). Ironically Yeshua called the Pharisees “fools” in Mathew 23:17,19 and in Luke 11:40 thereby, according to Mathew and Luke, making himself the recipient of his own curse.

(based on the book Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Asher Norman)

If Jesus Christ was the Divine Son of God as he said he was and perfomed miracles of healing, miraculously increased the loaves and fishes, etc. to prove it, he had the right to put a curse on a fig tree. Also concerning the law in Deuteronomy that you mentioned, would a Jewish soldier be allowed to shoot at an enemy combatant if he were hiding behind a fig tree, even though it could possibly destroy the fig tree? I think so. The spirit of the law was that Jewish soldiers should not destroy all the substance (food) of the enemy so that innocent non-combatants would die of famine. That law I am sure is still in effect , all or most of it, but cursing one tree if one is the Divine Son of God is another whole issue. After all the Lord of the Old Testament both blessed and cursed. When it came to people, when the Apostles asked Christ to rain fire down on the people in a town because they rejected him, He refused to do so. He told them that he came to save men’s lives not destroy them, and that their punishment was that they would receive no miraculous healings, etc. Which is more important a person or one fig tree? In Christian teaching the answer would be a person. As far as Christ slandering the people, it was done in self defense and to correct some of their overscupulous or, in the case of the Scribes, too lenient interpretations of the law. By the way, the Old Testament prophets said some very bad things in public and in writing about some of the Jewish people, yet they are honored. What is the difference between them and Jesus of Nazareth? I think there is none, other than that Jesus of Nazareth was the incarnation of the Old Testament God and the promised Messiah.

 

[DLT]

I did not mean that the Jewish people of today suffer for what some of their ancestors did. We all suffer for our own sins, not someone else’s sins.

I need to word my answer better: I did not mean that the Jewish people of today are guilty for what some of their ancestors did. Each person, Jew or Gentile, is guilty for his/her own sins. The Church has always taught that every sinful person – Jew or Gentile, pagan or Christian - is the cause of Christ’s death, some more so than others. A correction to one of my posts is: innocent people do sometimes suffer for the sins of others, but not the guilt.

 

[DLT]

sorry for the typo Mathew 23:2,3 (NIV)

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

However you are missing my point. Yeshua according to Christians was a god. Since God is sinless and perfect it would therefore seem to follow that Christians would believe that their son-god was perfect. Yet the Christian scriptures have their god misquoting and inventing parts of the Tanach (you figure God would know his bible),presenting wisdom stolen right out of the Tanach without attribution, lying, acting immorally toward a non Jew, making extremely morally problematic statements, acting in contravention to his own teachings,sinning and even being baptized for the remission of sin

Yeshua was executed by Romans for being an anti Roman zealot. His last words according to Mark and Mathew (yes even here the Christian scriptures contradict themselves) were a complaint to God "My God, my God why have you forsaken me? (Mark 15:34 Mathew 27:46- How God can forsake Himself is another story:shrug.

Around the time of Yeshua there lived Rabbi Akiva, a Jewish sage who led an exemplary life. The Romans martyred him by using a rake to tear the skin from his body. His last words were ones not of complaint to God but of praise “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One”.

Jesus Christ was baptized to set an example to his followers as was recorded in the New Testament. John the Baptist refused to baptize him because he believed him to be the Messiah, but Christ told him to baptize him anyway to set an example for all mankind. God the Father turned away from Christ on the Cross because the sins of the world were laid upon him and God cannot look at sin. How that was done between the Father and the Son will always be a mystery since mankind cannot fathom God.

 

[DLT]

Actually the full passage of Matthew 23: 2-5 is: The scribes and the Pharisees have suceeded Moses as teachers, therefore, do everything and observe everything they tell you. But do not follow their example. Their words are bold but their deeds are few. They bind up heavy loads, hard to carry, to lay on other men’s shoulders, while they themselves will not lift a finger to budge them. (New American Bible); or “The scribes and Pharisees occupy the chair of Moses. You must therefore do and observe what they tell you; but do not be guided by what they do, since they do not practise what they preach. they tie heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but will they lift a finger to move them? Not they!” (The New Jerusalem) Also, the Duoay-Rheims says bascially the same thing, but in older English. One of the heavy burden Christ was referring to was their lack of compassion when he healed a man on the Sabbath.

 

[chosen_people]

@Chosenpeople:

alright I kind of see the point you’re trying to make: that Jesus was a ‘bad man’ and not God.

But I think I rebutted your first argument for this well (see my previous post). So what other examples of Jesus ‘sining’ have you found? You list vague examples, but are there other specific events the Gospels say happened that proves Jesus a sinner?

I put sining in quotes because as a Christian I believe Jesus was sinless.

Oh, I won’t cover the last part of your post; FanChan has that covered.

My point was that the Jesus figure of the Christian scriptures is not a perfect being who never sinned or erred. I would never refer to your messiah as “a bad man”.

the short list:

You would think someone who is “God” would know their Tanach:

In Matthew 23:35 Jesus refers to Zechariah the son of Barachiah - however Zecharia was the son Jehoiada not Barachiah (2 Chron. 24:20 - 21)

In Mark 2:25-26 Jesus refers to how David entered the house of God in the days of Albiathar the high priest - however Ahimelech was the high priest at the time not Albiathar (1 Samuel 21:2)

In John 7:37-38 Jesus states “as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water” - the only problem is that no such scripture exists in the Tanach

In Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 the Tanach explains that God is not a human being and does not lie

The Jesus in John 18:20 tells the high priest after his arrest that he taught openly and said nothing in secret. However if we examine Mark 5:43, 1:44,7:36,8:30 and 9:9 we see that this is a lie.

The behaviour of Jesus toward a non-Jew was problematic (Mark 15:22 and Mark 7:26)- not very “godlike” and in contradiction to Talmudic teaching of the Pharisees who Jesus loved to slander (Talmud Gitten 61a, Talmud Avot 4:3, Talmud Baba Kama 38a) - dealt with

That is not to say that Jesus did not say many wise and true things. Except they didn’t add any moral or theological significance to Judaism, because though the Christian scriptures falsely relates their source to Jesus, they are lifted right out of the the Tanach and Talmud. (many examples on request)

As to the morally problematic statements by Jesus and how there were two sets of teachings one for others and one for his own enemies this was also dealt with in another post.

Jesus sinned by destroying the fig tree - dealt with

Jesus sinned against the Pharisees - dealt with

Jesus sinned by ordering his disciple to violate the commandments to honor his father and mother and to promptly bury the dead (Matthew 8:21-23 -see commandments Deuteronomy 5:16,21:23)

Jesus was baptized himself for remission of sin - dealt with

I would like to add that things listed here concerning Jesus as an imperfect being are only a tiny fraction of the reasons why Jews have not abandoned their eternal covenant with God to worship a god figure with a remarkable similarity to Osiris-Dionysus and other pagan entities.

I would also like to add that I am providing this information strictly for the purpose of this thread.It is not my wish or intention to impugn on personal beliefs and certainly not to try and convince anyone to be swayed in their beliefs. For this reason, while I am pleased at the responses, I will not debate them and as it was never my intention to persuade I will accept at face value any self declaration by a poster that he/she has successfully rebutted my arguments.

 

[sablouwho]

Chosen people~

Shabbat shalom (well, it’s shabbat locally, it’s probably past havdalah by this point in Israel…)!

A question coming out of genuine curiosity on my part–I’m wondering what attracted you to CAF? Do you find yourself mainly answering questions about Judaism for gentiles?

Also, I’m wondering if you might be frum, b’aal teshuvah, chasidic, etc? From your posts, it sounds as if you are observant.

Since I’m asking about you, I will first share about myself–I was “technically” raised Conservative (American).

Anyway, just curious to know a little bit about you. I find it interesting when non-Catholics participate here so I got to wondering about you!

Best,

Sablouwho

My point was that the Jesus figure of the Christian scriptures is not a perfect being who never sinned or erred. I would never refer to your messiah as “a bad man”.

the short list:

You would think someone who is “God” would know their Tanach:

In Matthew 23:35 Jesus refers to Zechariah the son of Barachiah - however Zecharia was the son Jehoiada not Barachiah (2 Chron. 24:20 - 21)

In Mark 2:25-26 Jesus refers to how David entered the house of God in the days of Albiathar the high priest - however Ahimelech was the high priest at the time not Albiathar (1 Samuel 21:2)

In John 7:37-38 Jesus states “as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water” - the only problem is that no such scripture exists in the Tanach

In Numbers 23:19 and 1 Samuel 15:29 the Tanach explains that God is not a human being and does not lie

The Jesus in John 18:20 tells the high priest after his arrest that he taught openly and said nothing in secret. However if we examine Mark 5:43, 1:44,7:36,8:30 and 9:9 we see that this is a lie.

The behaviour of Jesus toward a non-Jew was problematic (Mark 15:22 and Mark 7:26)- not very “godlike” and in contradiction to Talmudic teaching of the Pharisees who Jesus loved to slander (Talmud Gitten 61a, Talmud Avot 4:3, Talmud Baba Kama 38a) - dealt with

That is not to say that Jesus did not say many wise and true things. Except they didn’t add any moral or theological significance to Judaism, because though the Christian scriptures falsely relates their source to Jesus, they are lifted right out of the the Tanach and Talmud. (many examples on request)

As to the morally problematic statements by Jesus and how there were two sets of teachings one for others and one for his own enemies this was also dealt with in another post.

Jesus sinned by destroying the fig tree - dealt with

Jesus sinned against the Pharisees - dealt with

Jesus sinned by ordering his disciple to violate the commandments to honor his father and mother and to promptly bury the dead (Matthew 8:21-23 -see commandments Deuteronomy 5:16,21:23)

Jesus was baptized himself for remission of sin - dealt with

I would like to add that things listed here concerning Jesus as an imperfect being are only a tiny fraction of the reasons why Jews have not abandoned their eternal covenant with God to worship a god figure with a remarkable similarity to Osiris-Dionysus and other pagan entities.

I would also like to add that I am providing this information strictly for the purpose of this thread.It is not my wish or intention to impugn on personal beliefs and certainly not to try and convince anyone to be swayed in their beliefs. For this reason, while I am pleased at the responses, I will not debate them and as it was never my intention to persuade I will accept at face value any self declaration by a poster that he/she has successfully rebutted my arguments.