Jewish responses to Jesus as the Messiah

[Bishop93]

I have not had enough time to read all the posts or the full Jewish website given, but one Christian minister left Christianity and became a Jewish rabbi. One of the reasons he gave for leaving Christianity is because he did not believe Christ had actually spent three days and nights in the grave as he had prophecied. The man was wrong. He just did not understand that the phrase “three nights and three days” was an idiom and that the Jewish way of recording time in both the New and Old Testaments was different from ours. Every part of a day had a night attached to it even if the night was not completed.

I will give an example: In the Book of Esther in the Old Testament, it says in Esther 4:16 that Esther told Mardochai to tell all the Jews to fast from water and food for three days and three nights, and that she would do the same. Yet in Esther chapter 5 it says that on the third day Esther put on fine apparel and gave a banquet. Evidently, any part of the third day could be considered three nights and three days. So Christ’s rising on Sunday morning could be considered three days and three nights.

Also, Jonah was not actually three whole days and three whole nights in the whale as we understand it either according to the Book of Jonah. In Jonah 1:17 - 2:10 he was cast into the water one day and swallowed by a whale and spit out on the third day which would only include two nights.

I think the guy did understand it for what it is.

I use that way of thinking about time.

If it was a Jewish way about time while he was looking into Judaism he would have probably figured it out…Being since he became a Rabbi,well…

 

[DLT]

None of them were really rebutted on a significant level.

If you look at the link I posted it just seems more convincing.

Jesus didn’t fulfill the prophecies the messiah was supposed to but the Christians just say he will in the “second coming”…but that is just a way to excuse Jesus’ failure when he walked the Earth 2000 years ago.

He didn’t fulfill any prophesies of the messiah when he was here 2000 years ago…So why would you think he would thousand of years later?

The theory that he will has absolutely no credibility since all evidence points in a different direction.

Christians have not answered all the questions presented on the Jewish website because it would be impossibe to post the answers to all of them on this thread. They can all be found in other places, such as the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Catholic Answers Forum and other websites, Even some Protestants have good answers to them. Many of the answers are in the New Testament itself.

 

[Bishop93]

Christians have not answered all the questions presented on the Jewish website because it would be impossibe to post the answers to all of them on this thread. They can all be found in other places, such as the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Catholic Answers Forum and other websites, Even some Protestants have good answers to them. Many of the answers are in the New Testament itself.

Protestants have less answers than Catholics.

I’ve talked to countless Pastors,I went to a private Christian HS and talked to the Rev all the time.

They ALL gave different answers and most were contradicting to what the other person said.

If I talk to Rabbi…I get the same answers from all of them:thumbsup:

 

[DLT]

An answer to one of the Biblical verses referred to on the Jewish website about God being one and his name being one is: Christians worship one God in three divine person. Never-the-less, Christ told us us to baptize “In the name (notice it is singular) of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. Catholics and other orthodox Christians never baptized in the names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit using the plural for name, but use the formula Jesus Christ gave, the singular. Also another name for the Christian God is the Trinity or the Holy Trinity and believed to have been referred to in Genesis 18: 1-15, as the three “angels” were referred to as the Lord.

 

[chosen_people]

You really didn’t address any point I made, and I agree that was the mission of the people of Isreal. The Massiah did come in Christ Jesus, he is the way the truth and the light. I would challenge you, to read a bible (I will provide links to two versions), specifically the new testament, and ponder the perfect links between new and old. You can’t make this up, it fits together aboslutly perfectly. And with that:

Douay Rheims - English translation of Latin Vulgate
drbo.org/

New Jerusalem Bible
catholic.org/bible/

Which ever you prefer, they’re both strong. I would recommend starting with the Gosple of Matthew, if you wish I can provide you with some links to study from. I would also suggest ion you take a look at jews for Jesus as I linked previously. Additional study material can be found here:

salvationhistory.com/

Free bible studies. This is a challenge sir (friendly one, but a challenge none-the-less)

The thing is I am able to read and understand the Tanach in the original hebrew. If you want an accurate english translation of the Tanach I would suggest the Stone edition.

Actually both Mathew and Christian translations of the Tanach are probably the strongest testament for a Jew against Christianity. Messianic prophesies are invented and then attributed to Jesus, Non Messianic prophesies are turned into messianic prophesies. Verses in the Tanach are taken out of context in the Christian scriptures, Verses in the Tanach are mistranslated, words and phrases are invented and tenses altered. Verses in the Tanach are misappropriated to support messianic claims about Jesus.

I will accept your challenge if you wish but what is the point? It is easier for you as a gentile than for me as a Jew to get into the world to come. I certainly have no need to change or convince you. On the other hand a Jew (not a gentile) who worships your man-god is committing idolatry and will be cut off forever from his people and from God in this world and the next.

The Roman pagans who became Roman Catholics have made a step toward understanding the concept of God and Torah. When the Messiah ben David does come there will be no doubt, it will be empirically verifiable and there will be no need to start fiddling with texts and inventing “second comings”. All mankind will eventually be able to perceive and to grasp the concept of the One Eternal God without giving Him an animate or inanimate form, all will eventually come to know and understand both oral and written Torah.

The intellectual transition of all people to the Jewish concepts of God and Torah, to ethical monotheism, is a natural process that comes in time. A Catholic Church may be filled with statues or icons. However they are not found in latter day Islam or latter developments in Christianity.

If you want to study the Christian concept of Yeshua bar Yosef it is not to be found in the Tanach. Rather look to where it finally developed and was accepted, the pagan populations of Rome. As Celsus, a pagan satirist, wrote to Origen, an early Church leader, around 180 c.e. “How is Christianity unique? Are the pagan gods to be accounted as myths whereas theirs is to be believed as historical? In truth, there is nothing at all unusual about what Christians believe” (quote found in Twenty-Six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Norman Asher).

 

[lelhajj]

Well this may come as a shock, but medical miracles that reinforce one’s belief in God happen to Jews. Groups like Save a Child’s Heart even help make them happen. Imagine being told all your life about the despicable Jews and Israelis and than having your child’s life saved by them at no expense.

However, Jews are not limited to the field of medicine. Of all the ancient people we alone survive and prosper. Three years after a third of our people were destroyed in the Shoah, we regained our independence over our land. We were invaded by 5 armies, America placed an arms embargo on us, the British actively helped our enemies, not one soldier from the UN was dispatched to help. We could not possibly have survived, but we had ourselves and our eternal covenant with God and the miracle happened.

We are surrounded by a billion enemies but supposedly we are so strong that we are deemed “the aggressor” and the entire world admires the fighting ability of a nation that had not gone to battle and could not defend itself for two thousand years. A miracle?

We Jews make up about two tenths of one per cent of the world’s population. Under normal circumstances you should not even hear about Jews. We have been permitted to become part of the general population for only the last two hundred years. However, somehow we have managed to make a contribution “here and there and to have an impact”. In fact our enemies accuse us of controlling everything. Miracle?

So it may come as a surprise to you , but a lot of Christians I have met over the years claimed that their faith in God was strengthened not despite the Jews but because of the Jews.

I am talking about medical miracles where there is no medical or scientifical explanation. What you are talking about is something different. Lots of people from other religions have converted to catholicism because of such miracles. Jesus was a jew, but that does not mean that all the jews are good, specially talking about the killings of palestinians. I have met also wonderful jew doctors and i am glad i did, but that does not mean that all the jews are wonderful and good. As we can see also that some of our priests had not been good. It is not about what your faith is only, but by our actions, when they day of the final jugdement comes. It is not that we claim to be “catholics” or “jews” what is going to make us people deserving heaven, it is by our actions on this earth that will determine where are we going to be placed. Of course, we as christians have and respect the old testament but that does not mean that we must support what jews are doing nowdays with the palestinians. Jesus preached compassion and certainly this is not what is happening over there or in lebanon. We have so many excuses and we sin so often and still we claim that we are right and we are good.
I do respect your religion, but what is sacred to you, might not be sacred to me and the opposite works as well. I have read your comments about Mary’s virginity and specially for me, the way you keep denying it seems like an insult to what is sacred for me and for millions of catholics on this earth.

 

[lelhajj]

Also bishop93, i would suggest you to contac Mr. Roy Schoeman or read his books. He is a jew converted to catholic (i believe), a very well versed person in both religions. The same questions you have, he might give you a better insight and opinion about the “whys” and contradictions of both religions. He also appear on feb 5,2010 on catholic answers live, in this web site, on catholic radio. I believe the name of that interview is: Our Jewish Messiah.

 

[lelhajj]

Also, i would like to make a personal comment: It is sad that you, Jews, says so many bad things about Jesus, who is and was a Jew also. Sad, because i remember how Jesus was betrayed by his own people and still He is. That is one of the reasons why Jesus, before he was going to be crucified was so sad, besides seeing and foreseeing all the bad things that was and will happen in this world.

 

[chosen_people]

lelhajj;6468640**:

I am talking about medical miracles where there is no medical or scientifical explanation. What you are talking about is something different

. Lots of people from other religions have converted to catholicism because of such miracles. Jesus was a jew, but that does not mean that all the jews are good, specially talking about the killings of palestinians. I have met also wonderful jew doctors and i am glad i did, but that does not mean that all the jews are wonderful and good. As we can see also that some of our priests had not been good. It is not about what your faith is only, but by our actions, when they day of the final jugdement comes. It is not that we claim to be “catholics” or “jews” what is going to make us people deserving heaven, it is by our actions on this earth that will determine where are we going to be placed. Of course, we as christians have and respect the old testament but that does not mean that we must support what jews are doing nowdays with the palestinians. Jesus preached compassion and certainly this is not what is happening over there or in lebanon. We have so many excuses and we sin so often and still we claim that we are right and we are good.
I do respect your religion, but what is sacred to you, might not be sacred to me and the opposite works as well.** I have read your comments about Mary’s virginity and specially for me, the way you keep denying it seems like an insult to what is sacred for me and for millions of catholics on this earth**.

 

[chosen_people]

This is quite a good link - thanks. It just goes to show that God does not conform to any one’s preconceived notions of how prophecy unfolds. And its almost as if God does things in ways to confound human wisdom to prevent anyone from gaming His Divine Plan and trying to tell God what he must do before people accept His Messiah. It’s clear that the Jews of Jesus’ time fell headlong into Simeon’s prophecy and also the prophesy about Messiah being a stumbling stone:

Luke 2:33-35
34And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary (J)His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed– 35and a sword will pierce even your own soul–to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."

Isaiah 8:14 Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

The fundamental problem that the Jews never answer about Jesus of Nazareth is that they all knew that the Messiah could come as a blessing or bringing a curse. The cursing of the fig tree in the NT accounts is key to understanding that Messiah came as the latter since Messiah found rampant corruption and hypocrisy. I am told that the cursing of the fig tree was an oral tradition teaching of the Jews as one of the signs that Messiah could do to prove himself if he came not in the sense of a Messiah, son of David as conqueror but rather as Messiah, son of Joseph as the suffering servant. The Christian 2nd comming prophecy easily fulfills all OT accounts of Messiah.

James

The Jews indeed understand the fig tree story as one of the examples in the Christian scriptures which shows the figure of Jesus to not be a perfect being. The violation of Jewish law is a sin. Jesus cursed a fig tree because it did not have fruit which caused it to wither and die (Mathew 21:18-19) even though it wasn’t the season for figs ((Mark 11:13). This sin directly violated the Torah’s prohibition against destroying fruit trees even those of an enemy in time of war (Deuteronomy 20:19). This story is especially problematic because if Jesus was the “son god” and could perform miracles he also had the power to cause the tree to bear fruit instead of killing it. This behaviour can be compared to the story of Rabbi Yossi’s son who wanted to feed his workers. Rabbi Yossi cried out “Fig tree, fig tree send forth your fruit” and a barren fig tree produced figs and they ate" (Talmud Tannis 24a) - (source: Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Asher Norman)

 

[chosen_people]

I am talking about medical miracles where there is no medical or scientifical explanation. What you are talking about is something different. Lots of people from other religions have converted to catholicism because of such miracles. Jesus was a jew, but that does not mean that all the jews are good, specially talking about the killings of palestinians. I have met also wonderful jew doctors and i am glad i did, but that does not mean that all the jews are wonderful and good. As we can see also that some of our priests had not been good. It is not about what your faith is only, but by our actions, when they day of the final jugdement comes. It is not that we claim to be “catholics” or “jews” what is going to make us people deserving heaven, it is by our actions on this earth that will determine where are we going to be placed. **Of course, we as christians have and respect the old testament but that does not mean that we must support what jews are doing nowdays with the palestinians. Jesus preached compassion and certainly this is not what is happening over there or in lebanon. **We have so many excuses and we sin so often and still we claim that we are right and we are good.
I do respect your religion, but what is sacred to you, might not be sacred to me and the opposite works as well. I have read your comments about Mary’s virginity and specially for me, the way you keep denying it seems like an insult to what is sacred for me and for millions of catholics on this earth.

Well I know all about the Christians in Lebanon and the Palestinian Arab Muslims because between 1982 - 1985 I did five reserve duties with the IDF defending the Christians of Southern Lebanon and rendering them medical services, during which time Yasser Arafat and the PLO was trying to decimate the Christian population. Now if you are ever in Ein Kerem Jerusalem I can show you a Catholic orphanage run by a Catholic order of nuns (which by the way has an excellent relationship with Jews and the Jewish state). It was established in 1860 in order to take in Christian orphans whose families were massacred that year in Lebanon by non Christian Arabs. Or perhaps you would like to go to a lecture talking about the prosperous Christian community in Bethlehem under Israeli rule before it was turned over to the Palestinian Arab authority and how they ruined and persecuted the Christian community there. Or perhaps you would like to come to my courtroom which stands some one hundred meters from a Russian Orthodox Church while I the great grandson of Jews who fled Russia in the 19th Century from anti-Semitic pogroms, help insure that Israel remains the one place in the Middle East where Christians have full rights and full freedom of religion. And no, despite what you wrote, Jews do not go around indiscriminately killing Palestinian Arabs (they do allow them access to the Supreme Court of Israel and they face an army with the world’s highest moral standards- but that probably doesn’t fit into your point about the Jews). Give my best to all the “wonderful Jew doctors” next time you see them.

 

[coolduude]

Chosenpeople:

So all these were made up or mistranslated?
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

I highly doubt that. ECF weren’t stupid. They understood the prophecies and they understood Jesus (and how he fulfilled them). I don’t believe they made stuff up.

So you claim that they did make stuff up. Can you back up this claim?

 

[crazzeto]

Chosenpeople:

So all these were made up or mistranslated?
scripturecatholic.com/messianic_prophecies.html

I highly doubt that. ECF weren’t stupid. They understood the prophecies and they understood Jesus (and how he fulfilled them). I don’t believe they made stuff up.

So you claim that they did make stuff up. Can you back up this claim?

Not only is he trying to say all the EFC’s were that stupid, he’s trying to say that in 2,000 years no one has ever caught on. That the only people who get it right, were the Jews. That is aboslutly ridiculas, particularly when you consider all the Jews who have accepted similar challenges as the one I made directly to him, and ended up converting to the Faith.

Is choosen people trying to suggest only the ones that couldn’t read hebrew did so? That only people who read hebrew very poorly work on translating the bible? I’m sorry, but this is a typical LDS argument, it doesn’t work for him and it’s not going to work for the Jews.

He’s just going to have to accept, the scriptures are accuratly translated, and accuratly reflect the more ancient scriptures (as has been affirmed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls).

 

[JVD]

The Jews indeed understand the fig tree story as one of the examples in the Christian scriptures which shows the figure of Jesus to not be a perfect being. The violation of Jewish law is a sin. Jesus cursed a fig tree because it did not have fruit which caused it to wither and die (Mathew 21:18-19) even though it wasn’t the season for figs ((Mark 11:13). This sin directly violated the Torah’s prohibition against destroying fruit trees even those of an enemy in time of war (Deuteronomy 20:19). This story is especially problematic because if Jesus was the “son god” and could perform miracles he also had the power to cause the tree to bear fruit instead of killing it. This behaviour can be compared to the story of Rabbi Yossi’s son who wanted to feed his workers. Rabbi Yossi cried out “Fig tree, fig tree send forth your fruit” and a barren fig tree produced figs and they ate" (Talmud Tannis 24a) - (source: Twenty-six reasons why Jews don’t believe in Jesus by Asher Norman)

It’s amazing to me that you have gone on record here a number of times judging the Messiah, Jesus the Christ, as being a sinner. For a Jew that prides himself in the law is it such that any Jew can openly judge any other as sinners without a court of inquiry? It’s certainly easy to judge a person who is not physically present in court is it not? You will be judged according to how you yourself judge by others and by God.

By your standard God commits sin every day by letting fruit trees that are poorly rooted die by natural means. By your standard a Jew is permitted to sin to punish another who he deems a sinner - even going so far as hanging a man on a tree against all Jewish law or turning one’s countrymen over to non-Jewish courts (e.g. Roman) for laws that they are not subject to. By your standard God must obey every single Jew’s private opinion of what scripture means and what every schoolboy says is the law. By your standard God can not judge or punish Israel or ever bring them anything but blessings irrespective if they are wicked or not. By your standard the law only works one way - to bring peace and happiness to all Jews and to guarantee that God can not “judge” Israel according to how He sees things rather than how men suffering from the defects of sin want to see things.

Your entire thesis is based on the assumption that Jesus of Nazareth was a fake and that thesis gives you no quarter at all to the possibility that you have just dared to judge God. Yet, from your prior comments your thesis is seen to be rooted in a fear of God that you could be damned for following and worshiping the wrong Messiah. Yet your thesis does not account for the fact that the entire corpus of Christianity came from Jews - all the apostles were Jews. All the original disciples were Jews. How is it that the more pure Jews of 2,000 years ago who were much more pious and culturally immerses than any Jew living today (Jews who actualy had a temple to worship in) elected to believe and follow “a sinner” (your judgement) to their own cruel deaths? How is it that what should have been a minor cult (had it been false) exploded over night to become the largest religion on the planet (until recent times where Muslims have out birthed Christians)?

How is it that no Jew who knows scripture as well as he imagines wants to admit that scripture clearly portrays The Messiah as both “Messiah, son of David” (conqueror/restorer) and as “Messiah, son of Joseph” (suffering servant) and that Jesus perfectly fits the latter and also elements of the prior? It sure seems to me that you fall into this trap and have no way to account for how so many Jews followed Christ and how the Jews of the day had no problem at all in seeing Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. Why must you insist on taking Messiah only as one who blesses and not as one who suffers to bear the sins of His people?

What do you think about the early Jewish converts? Where these men and women just tired of Judaism and wanted to break away and face alienation from their people? Did they all happen to sit down together one day and conspire to invent a new religion based on Jewish scripture? Do you think Jesus was a crazy man who put himself through the suffering He did just to confound Jews and make them fall away to be mean and obstinate? What was His motive? Jesus if an ordinary man would have had to have been the best Rabbi ever to come up with the amazing insights that were not at all well taught in his time to develop the script he did. A fake Messiah would have stayed to mainline views of scripture to rally large popular sentiments (the conquering Messiah) rather than have acted on the more hidden or glossed over scriptural meanings. Yet Jesus took the more difficult passages for exhibition (the suffering Messiah) that absolutely amazed the Jewish teachers of the time since its all there in scripture. How do you account for the amazing correspondence of the Christian New Testament scripture with Jewish scripture? If Christian scripture was fabricated then the New Testament would have all been constructed ahead of the crucifixion and be well organized and complete on day one or within a few years after the crucifixation. But its not - it was constructed in parts by different men who never came together with absolutely no collaboration or organized writing assignments – all while being viciously persecuted by the Jews. Only God could have been behind this. How do you explain the fall of Jerusalem and the loss of the temple just as Jesus prophesized and the total escape of the Christian Jews?

James

 

[JVD]

On the other hand a Jew (not a gentile) who worships your man-god is committing idolatry and will be cut off forever from his people and from God in this world and the next.

The Jews of Jesus’ time who converted to Christianity were more Jewish than any modern day Jew ever was or will be. These actually worshipped in a temple and followed the letter of the law. Unlike the modern day Jews, the Jews of Jesus’ time actually had a recognized Jewish teaching authority that was universally accepted by all Jews. Yet the entire corpus of Christianity comes from these devout Jews who saw the perfect sense of Christianity being the complete fullfillment of scripture. Do you think you know more about scripture than such men as Paul of Tarsus and the Jews of that day? Do you think that the Jews of Jesus’ time were less concerned about their souls than you are? Would you be willing to die for your opinions as did all the original Christian Jews for their faith in Jesus (save John who was brutally tortured)? In your judgement where all these men cut off from God in this world and the next?

The intellectual transition of all people to the Jewish concepts of God and Torah, to ethical monotheism, is a natural process that comes in time. A Catholic Church may be filled with statues or icons. However they are not found in latter day Islam or latter developments in Christianity.

So it follows naturally then that no statues are to be found anymore in the Jewish temple or in all of neo-Judaism since the natural process has destroyed the Temple and made worship a thing one does only in the privacy of one’s own heart and home (and on debating forums)?

Salvation is an intellectual journey that must reach its pinnacle in Judaism? Which sect? Which Rabbi?

James

 

[sablouwho]

The thing is I am able to read and understand the Tanach in the original hebrew.

Just pointing out something important to the general reader –

The quote seems to imply that if more people could read the Tanach in original Hebrew, they would reject Jesus.

The thing is, there are also Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah who are able to read and understand the Tanach in the original Hebrew. Not to mention many scholars with Ph.D in ancient Hebrew who can read it better than most Jews…one of these Ph.Ds is a Jewish convert to faith in Jesus. But according to the implied logic above, that is not supposed to happen!

So, the implication that “if only you could read Tanach in the original Hebrew, you would know Jesus is a false messiah” is incorrect.

Actually both Mathew and Christian translations of the Tanach are probably the strongest testament for a Jew against Christianity. Messianic prophesies are invented and then attributed to Jesus, Non Messianic prophesies are turned into messianic prophesies. Verses in the Tanach are taken out of context in the Christian scriptures, Verses in the Tanach are mistranslated, words and phrases are invented and tenses altered. Verses in the Tanach are misappropriated to support messianic claims about Jesus.

Cool Dude has asked me up-thread why Jews don’t believe in Jesus. Well, the above paragraph is an example of the kinds of things I heard about growing up in a Jewish environment. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was being “inoculated” against the possibility of having faith in Jesus. I don’t blame those who were saying these things to me, though, as they too were inoculated themselves. It’s just, in my case, the inoculation didn’t “take” – God is stronger than the verbal vaccination!

 

[chosen_people]

Not only is he trying to say all the EFC’s were that stupid, he’s trying to say that in 2,000 years no one has ever caught on. That the only people who get it right, were the Jews. That is aboslutly ridiculas, particularly when you consider all the Jews who have accepted similar challenges as the one I made directly to him, and ended up converting to the Faith.

Is choosen people trying to suggest only the ones that couldn’t read hebrew did so? That only people who read hebrew very poorly work on translating the bible? I’m sorry, but this is a typical LDS argument, it doesn’t work for him and it’s not going to work for the Jews.

He’s just going to have to accept, the scriptures are accuratly translated, and accuratly reflect the more ancient scriptures (as has been affirmed by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls).

The Christian scriptures are rife with contradictions and anomalies. The gospels can’t even agree on the names of the disciples. However, I can presume that when Christians sit down to bible class they don’t go into discussions of 25 conflicts and discrepancies that are found just in the resurrection accounts alone. That doesn’t mean they are not there or that no one noticed them before or that a poster on Catholic answers forum from Israel placed them there:shrug:

Christianity attempted to shoehorn in 300 supposed references to Yeshua bar Yosef n the Tanach. The only way this can be done is to use the techniques I described. So a Christian goes to Genesis 3:15 and the snake is now Satan and the man is now Yeshua bar Yosef and the woman is now Mary and no one in Church is going to explain to you about the changed pronoun or how the same phrase appears concerning Hagar or any of the other things to show you why the Christian interpretation here and in 299 other places doesn’t hold water. And when the word Torot appears in the Tanach (Torah in the plural appears referring to the oral as well as the written law) why the Christian translators know that Christianity rejected the oral law so they are not going to translate the word to include oral law. To tell you the truth I’m a little surprise that you are surprised. You do realize this is a thread about the Jewish responses to Jesus as the messiah. Except if I’m asked, there is no reason for a Jew to sit and explain these things to gentiles. A gentile has an easier time to get into the world to come than for a Jew. So Christians aren’t explaining these things to you and Jews aren’t explaining these things to you (unless you are a missionary) so most Christians can go on believing that the reason Jews don’t believe in their son god is because we are “blinded to the truth” (Romans 11:7-825-28). However God is perfectly satisfied with with the Jews eyesight when He made His eternal covenant with the Jews “for a light of the nations; to open the blind eyes” (Isaiah 42:6).

 

[sablouwho]

The Christian scriptures are rife with contradictions and anomalies. The gospels can’t even agree on the names of the disciples. However, I can presume that when Christians sit down to bible class they don’t go into discussions of 25 conflicts and discrepancies that are found just in the resurrection accounts alone. That doesn’t mean they are not there or that no one noticed them before or that a poster on Catholic answers forum from Israel placed them there:shrug:

Coupla things here.

There are lots of problems in the Tanach as well–using the above governing metric, we’d have to throw it out as well.

The assumption that Christians don’t discuss the discrepancies is incorrect. Not saying that ALL bible study classes will deal with this–probably a lot of them don’t. But if you take classes at university level, as I have, or at seminary level, yes, they do discuss them. (Again, I cannot speak for every single class ever taught, but the classes I’ve taken are representative.) We learned about discrepancies in the New Testament as well as the discrepancies in the Tanach.

 

[sablouwho]

Cool Dude…

The quotes below are another good example of the type of things I heard growing up. The word “shoehorn” was a word that was used a lot, just as chosen people has used it below. I want to make it clear that I don’t fault chosen people at all for using this phrasing, rather I am just pointing out that within Jewish culture, this way of talking about why Christianity is mistaken is quite common. It’s a cultural thing, y’know. There are Jews on CAF who post and it feels like I could be related to them…the way they “talk” is so familiar to me that they sound like members of my own family. Of course, in a sense, they are family…but that’s a whole other thread!

The Christian scriptures are rife with contradictions and anomalies. The gospels can’t even agree on the names of the disciples. However, I can presume that when Christians sit down to bible class they don’t go into discussions of 25 conflicts and discrepancies that are found just in the resurrection accounts alone. That doesn’t mean they are not there or that no one noticed them before or that a poster on Catholic answers forum from Israel placed them there:shrug:

Christianity attempted to shoehorn in 300 supposed references to Yeshua bar Yosef n the Tanach. The only way this can be done is to use the techniques I described. So a Christian goes to Genesis 3:15 and the snake is now Satan and the man is now Yeshua bar Yosef and the woman is now Mary and no one in Church is going to explain to you about the changed pronoun or how the same phrase appears concerning Hagar or any of the other things to show you why the Christian interpretation here and in 299 other places doesn’t hold water. And when the word Torot appears in the Tanach (Torah in the plural appears referring to the oral as well as the written law) why the Christian translators know that Christianity rejected the oral law so they are not going to translate the word to include oral law. To tell you the truth I’m a little surprise that you are surprised. You do realize this is a thread about the Jewish responses to Jesus as the messiah. Except if I’m asked, there is no reason for a Jew to sit and explain these things to gentiles. A gentile has an easier time to get into the world to come than for a Jew. So Christians aren’t explaining these things to you and Jews aren’t explaining these things to you (unless you are a missionary) so most Christians can go on believing that the reason Jews don’t believe in their son god is because we are “blinded to the truth” (Romans 11:7-825-28). However God is perfectly satisfied with with the Jews eyesight when He made His eternal covenant with the Jews “for a light of the nations; to open the blind eyes” (Isaiah 42:6).

 

[sablouwho]

Jesus did not fulfill all the prophecies while he was here on earth so it seems like the Jews have a point.

How do Christians rebut all these arguments? Maybe I’m missing some Biblical stuff so could you guys fill me in here?

When I was reading about Christianity from the point of view of a Jew myself, and as a non-believer in Christ, these objections that you point out were definitely in my mind. It was hard for me to get over my pre-conceived notions that Jesus couldn’t have been the messiah since I was inoculated with many reason why he wasn’t as I grew up.

Even though I was reading Christian apologetics that were aimed at a skeptic, they did not answer uniquely Jewish objections.

Fortunately, I found a series of books by a Jewish believer in Jesus named Michael L. Brown, called “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”. I have volumes 1-4 at home and I just looked on Amazon, and volume 5 has recently come out (I don’t have that one yet.)

The arguments that concern you are well covered in Brown’s books. However, they are not exactly light nor exciting reading, and for the non-Jew, they may not make a lot of sense if you haven’t been exposed to Judaism your whole life.

I have seen some Jewish message boards dedicated to “keeping Jews Jewish” where they try and refute these books. Personally I found the rebuttals to not be very well done.

But as I said previously, the more and more I read the Jewish rebuttals, the more I could see the spiritual blindness that was behind them (though I don’t think it is purposeful on the part of the individuals, I think it is a “God thing”). Jewish “counter-apologetics” pushed me right into Jesus’ arms, which is the exact opposite result of what they are meant to do, not to mention, being extremely ironic.