Jews and Jesus - the irony

[Kaninchen]

Only bible is the evidence for this and if one does not believe in it nothing can be done by anybody except by God .

Remember that a lot of your bible is our bible (the Tanakh - Old Testament to you).

Certainly it’s important for Christians to bear in mind, in any conversation, that we don’t regard the ‘New Testament’ as either Scripture or Reportage.

 

[Isearch]

Yup. The onus is on us Christians to prove the New Testament is truly from God (which, in my opinion, we failed to do because we lack evidence).

 

[Kaninchen]

Yup. The onus is on us Christians to prove the New Testament is truly from God (which, in my opinion, we failed to do because we lack evidence).

There’s not really an approach that doesn’t depend on a leap of faith to achieve success - after over two decades of talking about religion with Christians and, obviously, mountains of ‘evidence’, my experience is that ‘evidence’ arguments merely annoy Jews and frustrate Christians.

 

[joseie]

The most fundamental thing about God and religion is that nobody can produce any undisputable evidence that there is God or that a particular religion is the true one from God.If that is possible then there will be only one God and one religion on earth which stage is yet to come but is surely expected…

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

As of June 2018, a census showed that there were 2.5 million Messianic Jews worldwide, and their numbers continue to increase. Messianic Jews Grow in the World in 2018 | Answers in Torah

“They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.” (Romans 11:20)

“For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful.” (Romans 11:15)

" I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-27)

“But Israel will be saved by the LORD with an everlasting salvation; you will not be put to shame or humiliated, to ages everlasting.” (Isaiah 45:17)

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” (Zechariah 8:23)

 

[Kaninchen]

As of June 2018, a census showed that there were 2.5 million Messianic Jews worldwide, and their numbers continue to increase.

Some of those people were even Jews originally.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Some of those people were even Jews originally.

Yes, and those who were Jewish originally, still say that they are, because they believe they are part of the fulfillment of the promise that God gave to their people–that they have believed on the one who was sent.

 

[Kaninchen]

I expect that really, really impresses proselytisers but that’s about all.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

I don’t think it’s meant to impress anyone. They believe they have found the Messiah, who was promised to their people.

 

[Kaninchen]

This conversation merely exemplifies a central problem of intra-faith discussion - the tendency for irresistible force meet immovable object.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

I wouldn’t disagree with that

 

[Saint_Prince_Caspian]

God makes mistakes?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Well, according to George Burns, who played the role of Gd and was nearly as old, Gd did commit at least one error by making the giraffe’s neck too long.

 

[GEddie]

And the state of Israel would not exist for a further 44 years.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Most, however, have no desire to leave Judaism when they come to their Messiah because they would believe Y’shua to be the fulfillment of Judaism and celebrate it in that fashion. Some Feasts, for example, Passover, is still celebrated because God told the Jewish people that they were to keep the Passover forever…they would see no end to “Forever” and so they celebrate it in thanksgiving for Y’shua becoming the Passover Lamb. An example might be that Christians celebrate Easter year after year even though that has been fulfilled…we celebrate it in Thanksgiving for what God has done for us.

Most all of their other feasts were given to them directly by God and find their fulfillment in Christ, so they celebrate those feasts in thanksgiving. They don’t want to give up those things directly given to them by God. Who would want to do that?

I personally think they might want to come into the church if it were more like the early church where all the Jewish feasts and customs were celebrated…the church that St. Peter knew. But as the number of Gentiles grew and the number of Jewish people declined, Jewish customs were forgotten and a seemingly whole “new” religion evolved.

Messianic Jews wouldn’t think of themselves as Catholic or Protestant. To their way of thinking, they remain Jewish.

 

[BartholomewB]

Some of those people were even Jews originally.

Has anyone taken the trouble to compile statistics? I have never attended worship in a Messianic synagogue (church?), but from talking to people who have, my impression is that the number of people from a Jewish background must be pretty close to zero, at least in the United States. Maybe in Israel it’s different.

 

[Kaninchen]

my impression is that the number of people from a Jewish background must be pretty close to zero, at least in the United States. Maybe in Israel it’s different.

“Messianic Judaism, reality or an Advertising Campaign?” is a key question.

I seem to remember a Pew poll a couple of years ago that showed that cross-religious conversions (Jews, Christians, Muslims etc) were at a very low level in Israel. I expect converts in any direction become celebrities.

 

[Wesrock]

Is it not one of the greatest irony and trajedy that almost all the Jewish people whom God specially selected from the beginning as His people and who were given protection and guidance throughout,do not believe in Jesus his son ? Was it a mistake to select Jews as His privileged people?

God doesn’t make mistakes and knows exactly what he’s doing. He hasn’t forgotten about the Jewish people.

 

[Hodos]

Was it a mistake to select Jews as His privileged people?

No, it wasn’t. God chose the Jewish people (a stiff-necked people by his own testimony) that he might demonstrate his grace, not our righteousness.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Here’s an interesting article: Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

It lists a few reasons for the split between Judaism and Christianity.

From the article:

“It is difficult to trace the process by which the two separated or to know exactly when this began. Jewish Christians continued to worship in synagogues together with contemporary Jews for centuries. Some scholars have found evidence of continuous interactions between Jewish-Christian and Rabbinic movements from the mid-to late second century CE to the fourth century CE.”

“Most historians agree that Jesus or his followers established a new Jewish sect, one that attracted both Jewish and gentile converts.
The first followers of Jesus were essentially all ethnically Jewish or Jewish proselytes. Jewish Christians regarded their movement as an affirmation of every aspect of contemporary Judaism, with the addition of one extra belief-that Jesus was the Messiah.”

“The separation of Christianity from Judaism was a process, not an event, in which the church became more and more gentile, and less and less Jewish. Early Christianity ceased to be a Jewish sect when it ceased to observe Jewish practices, such as circumcision.”