Let it all out G!That turned into a much longer post than I intended, and I hope I didn’t offend anyone, most espescially our Jewish friends who have to wade through so much intentional spite on these forums already, but I guess it’s something that I had to get off my chest
Well said.SSV: This has always fascinated me. Would be willing to explain how it rejects this in the Jewish view?
I think this all boils down to the fact that Jews and Christians actually don’t have to do a lot of “twisting” of Scripture to come up with their respective viewpoints. In my opinion, both sides have a very legitimate point of view, with no need for any wool being pulled over anyone’s eyes. Unfortunately there have been accusations on BOTH sides that this has occured (in this very thread, no less), and it has been for the worst. It’s high time that we recognized that both sides respect God and the Messiah, and though one side obviously has it “wrong”, it has come innocently and without malice. Historically, however, it has been Jews who have been more open to this reality than Christians, for reasons I don’t understand. We Catholics should be comfortable enough in our faith to accept the truth of our interpretations without needing to ascribe any kind untowards behavior on the part of those in other faiths. To put it in a way I’m sure SSV and all Orthodox Jews could recognize, respect, and appreciate, when you’re right you don’t have to beat others over the head with how wrong they are.
Many people know that I came to the Church, and to faith in general, because of Orthodox Judaism. The faith of Orthodox Jews is most definately supernatural in character, and must be honored. Of course I differ with Jews on the matter of Jesus as the Messiah, but I am able to differ precisely because of what I learned while studying Judaism, and espescially because of devout Orthodox Jews like SSV who are willing to stand firmly in their faith while not denigrating alternate respectful interpretations. Another thing to remember, and I hope SSV and other Jews take this in the respectful and loving manner it’s intended and not as any kind of slight on their own ancient understandings, Jews have shown themselves time and time again more that willing to die for their faith in the Messiah. As a Catholic, as someone who believes adamantly that Jesus is indeed the Christ, I can only credit their faith as true faith in Jesus. As a person who’s faith is hopefully as unshakable as the Orthodox Jews, I can say with the purest hope that all things will be sorted out when the Messiah comes, or returns, and such minor details will be washed away by the rejoicing we will share in the fact that we have both remained absolutely faithful to God and the promise of the Messiah, one of the fundamental, if not the fundamental, characteristics of both our faiths.
How can we look at those Jews who walked into the gas chambers singing about their absolute faith in the coming Messiah and not see the truest Christian spirit? How can we not envy their faith in the Messiah, whom they’ve not even seen, when so many Christians show so little faith in the Messiah they claim to personally know? This isn’t meant in anyway to say that Jews are “too ignorant” to know who they’re dying for, merely highlighting the tenet of my faith that Jesus is indeed the Messiah.
Of course I wish that all Jews would embrace Jesus, but only because I believe that He is the Messiah they’ve longed for so faithfully, and through so much hardship. I want it because I believe it is the time to rejoice, the same way I would want all of my friends and family who long for a feast to come to a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner. Furthermore, I wish they could embrace Jesus as Jews, without losing any of their unique cultural or spiritual character, just as I believe the Apostles did.
This is just my desire, however, and I temper it with the knowledge that the same faithfulness and adamance that prevents them from doing so today is the very reason we have been graced with the Messiah in the first place. I believe that, for the time being, we can labor in our faiths without putting down the other. We both love not only God, but also the very real Messiah, what other faiths can say the same? From a very Catholic point of view, I see no reason to act harshly towards the only other people I see willing to die for Christ. If people like SSV can respect our faith in the Messiah, even while holding fast to their belief that we’ve misidentified Him, why can’t we do the same?
Cherish our similarities, respect our differences, and have a bottle of wine ready to celebrate when Messiah comes/returns and renders such distinctions meaningless. In the meantime, we must honor our faith and work towards God’s ends.
That turned into a much longer post than I intended, and I hope I didn’t offend anyone, most espescially our Jewish friends who have to wade through so much intentional spite on these forums already, but I guess it’s something that I had to get off my chest
As long as it’s the goood stuff. According to the Gospels, did Jesus ever visit the area now known as the Golan Heights? 'Cause that’s where the goood stuff comes from nowadays (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=449610#post449610).
You are correct. Tanakh is an acronym for Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim or Torah, Prophets and Writings.
It is a very slow, laborious & painstaking process. They are copied by hand, by specially trained & qualified scribes who use only certain kinds of ink & styluses & are written on parchment made from cowhide. The whole process is governed by incredibly strict rules. See Accuracy of Torah Text at aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Accuracy_of_Torah_Text.asp. I’ll quote one excerpt:
I actually know very little about it. I’m skeptical. The Tanakh isn’t a history text. Neither is it a geology, cosmology or biology text. What it is is God’s own manual on how we are to lead our lives. (Since the Torah isn’t a history/geology/cosmology/biology text, I find it a little hard to believe that it’s necessarily a cryptology text.) Numbers & letters can be manipulated & juggled to say just about anything.
Bah! Nonsense! C’mon, let’s transfer this conversation to a good microbrewery brewpub!
Thank you! Likewise!
To be blunt, he does not meet the “messianic criteria” of the Tanakh, bearing in mind Jews and Christians have very different ideals about who or what the messiah is.
I think it goes a bit deeper then that. Sin and atonement I think is actually the biggest divider.
Of course. We do share the same idea on alot of things. While I have never witnessed a Catholic Mass, I hear they are similar in structure to a Jewish service.
Just be open and frank. Ask questions.
Jesus spent nearly 2 years in the foothills between the Golan and the Galil. One of his miracles involved changing some 90-110 gallons of water into wine for a wedding feast in Cana of Galilee (John 2:1-11)
I’ll just let the information sit for people to read and follow the links…Protestants use the Canon of Scripture you use for their “Old Testament”, but not your order.
A little reading on “The Blble Code” - If you’re interested. Those who’ve “discovered” it believe it demonstrates the divine authoship of the Torah.
Sounds like very busy Shabbas preparation! Say hello to DW and Do Boyz!It’s now 23:10 Thursday night here in the Jerusalem 'burbs. On Shabbat (from sundown Friday to nightfall Saturday), orthodox Jews don’t use most electric/electronic devices, including TVs, radios, phones & computers. (See jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm for a good introductory read.) … This is my roundabout way of saying, “See you all either Saturday night or Sunday!”
Be well!
ssv
I’ve been through Cana a few times. As I recall, Cana was in the news this past December: tinyurl.com/4m2vz.
For Friday night dinner, we made a very nice piece of Nile perch (from Lake Victoria). We baked a big fillet in a sauce consisting of sauteed onions, 'shrooms & tomatoes, 9% sour cream & shredded cheese. Mmmmmmmmmm!!!
…And the Tiny URL from GOI didn’t work. I know the GOI URL’s are ONLY 120+ Characters LONG.
Are you sure all this shredded cheese and sour cream in the fish is KOSHER??For Friday night dinner, we made a very nice piece of Nile perch (from Lake Victoria). We baked a big fillet in a sauce consisting of sauteed onions, 'shrooms & tomatoes, 9% sour cream & shredded cheese. Mmmmmmmmmm!!!
Be well & be in touch!
ssv
Sure. Fish is parve (i.e. neither dairy nor meat; although we have a tradition of not cooking/serving fish & meat together in the same dish).
You’ve touched on a very tragic chapter in our history. Rabbi Akiva (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rakiva.htm & jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/akiba.html) is extraordinarily revered.
Rabbi Akiva’s support for Bar Kochba was very controversial among his rabbinic colleagues, many/most of whom did not share his views. I cite the second of the above two links about Rabbi Akiva:
I’m not sure about whether our Sages recast their views on the Messiah in the wake of the Bar Kochba disaster. He was neither the first nor the last false messiah in our history. I don’t know that there is any evidence of our Sages having done so. The current of messianism that is part & parcel of traditional, normative Judaism became a torrent & then a tidal wave on the eve of the Bar Kochba revolt as we approached the 70th anniversary of the 2nd Temple’s destruction :crying: because there was a widespread popular expectation that just as the 2nd Temple was rebuilt 70 years after the 1st Temple was destroyed :crying: , so too would the 3rd Temple be built 70 years after the 2nd one was destroyed :crying: . My theory is that Rabbi Akiva, affected as he had to have been by his & his 3 colleagues’ common experience (whatever it was exactly) was unable to prevent himself from being swept along in this tidal wave of messianic expectations.
Thank you! Likewise!
Your reply is both interesting & informative; thank you. However (and pleeeeeease don’t be insulted by this), nothing can persuade me, “to reconsider the claims of Yeshua.”
The best way to understand is to read the answer from a Jewish perspective. I have placed the web address here for you!