Jews and Muslims:who do you say Jesus is?

[Ali_Khan]

Yes he did and I agree with him as what goes into a man is not what determines his holiness but what proceeds from his mouth to borrow from scripture. Also, Jews it should be noted regard the dietary laws as only binding on themselves. Although I’d point out only a small minority of Jews I’ve known or worked with do follow them to any great extent. Not suprising really as much of London’s Jewish population is quite secular in nature, not that you couldn’t say the same about representatives from many religous backgrounds here.

I was talking about Judaism as a religion. I know there a large number of secular Jews today who don’t literally follow the laws of the Torah.
In fact, there are even atheist Jews nowadays!

My point is that the nature of dietary law and how it is implemented (required-all-the-time vs just fasting) is very different in Christianity than it is for Islam and Judaism.

And while Muslims believe that pork and non-kosher/non-dhabiha meat is ‘impure’, we don’t force halal food on non-Muslims or criticize them for eating what they eat. Following the dietary laws is naturally only incumbent upon followers of Islam.

I remember how many Muslims including myself had to go to Kosher restaurants and buy kosher meat in the US due to our dietary restrictions. We could not eat from McDonalds or KFC or even Wal-Mart.

Ritual worship plays a huge part in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, don’t mistake a difference in how those rituals are played out as a lack of this quality.

I realize that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are very ritualistic, especially relative to the Protestant Churches, but it is the nature, not the quantity, of the ritualism that, to me, separates Christianity from Islam & Judaism, which have very similar sorts of practices.

For example, Muslims and Jews have the set daily prayers facing a certain Middle Eastern city, the Orthodox synagogues and mosques have separate seating for the men and women, there’s the practice growing beards (though I’ve seen Orthodox Christians do it too - maybe you could enlighten me on this), there’s the idea of pure vs impure (especially with regards to menstruation), the way animals are slaughtered is VERY similar (virtually the same), and the practice of women dressing modestly, and more stuff which I can’t recall right now.

I’ve only been exposed to Western forms of Christianity in my life (well, except for a few Maronites), so I’m sure I’ve made some mistakes, but my general assertion here is that Islam resembles Judaism (and vice versa) far more than either of them resemble Christianity.

 

[tomarin]

No shortage of halal restaurants or street vendors in the New York/New Jersey area either – just FYI. Someplace like Arkansas might be a different story.

 

[Heliotropium]

**Jews and Muslims:who do you say Jesus is? **

Lets see for the Jews their view of who Jesus was is pretty clear isnt it? He was crucified for being a blasphemer.

For the Muslims they see Christ as Prophet and they recognize His virign Birth by the Holy Spirit and Mary. Yet they still do not recognize Christ as God and He is considered a lesser prohet comparied to Mohammed.

 

[Kaninchen]

**Jews and Muslims:who do you say Jesus is? **

Lets see for the Jews their view of who Jesus was is pretty clear isnt it? He was crucified for being a blasphemer.

Allegedly

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s does seem a little strange when Christians, who don’t believe a word of what’s said about them in somebody else’s holy book (what an interesting day it’s been on the Islam/Christianity front!), seem to assume that we accept anything that what’s written about us in their holy book.

 

[momor]

It’s does seem a little strange when Christians, who don’t believe a word of what’s said about them in somebody else’s holy book (what an interesting day it’s been on the Islam/Christianity front!), seem to assume that we accept anything that what’s written about us in their holy book.

Quite true. But I do appreciate the explanations Jews and Muslims have given about who they say Jesus Christ is. I don’t think the intent of the OP question was to debate who’s right but sometimes we have to do a little of that to explain our views and why/how they conflict.

Since none of us were there when Jesus was crucified all we have to go on are writings from that period. There is more written than what’s in the NT that points to the reasons why. If Jewish writings are silent on the topic then you really can only speculate why His crucifixion did or didn’t take place and you have even less basis on which to make a denial that it was due to blasphemy or religious fear/politics of Jewish leaders of the day.

 

[Kaninchen]

Since none of us were there when Jesus was crucified all we have to go on are writings from that period. There is more written than what’s in the NT that points to the reasons why. If Jewish writings are silent on the topic then you really can only speculate why His crucifixion did or didn’t take place and you have even less basis on which to make a denial that it was due to blasphemy or religious fear/politics of Jewish leaders of the day.

I think that the problem is that many Christians can’t deal with the radical thought that, for Jews, it’s not that we interpret what the New Testament says differently from Christians, it’s that we don’t believe a word of it so discussing its contents is like discussing passages from the ‘Lord of The Rings’ and whether one is interested in doing that rather depends on one’s interest in literary criticism (we had one Jewish member who created thread after thread of ‘lit crit’ of the New Testament).

 

[Heliotropium]

Allegedly

So are you saying Christ wasnt crucified or that he wasnt crucified for being a blasphemer?

If your saying he wasnt crucifid then why toes the Talmud mention his crucifixtion?

Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. … Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

If he wasnt crucified for being a blasphemer then why was he crucified? It couldnt have been becuase he was a nobody?

The Amoa “Ulla” (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: "And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth - Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: “Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him.” It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

If the jews that practiced Judasim crucified Christ for being a blasphemer and a Heretic then why would Christ not be considered to be the same in the eyes of the Jews practicing Judasim today?

 

[momor]

I think that the problem is that many Christians can’t deal with the radical thought that, for Jews, it’s not that we interpret what the New Testament says differently from Christians, it’s that we don’t believe a word of it so discussing its contents is like discussing passages from the ‘Lord of The Rings’ and whether one is interested in doing that rather depends on one’s interest in literary criticism (we had one Jewish member who created thread after thread of ‘lit crit’ of the New Testament).

I agree, which is why I reject the Koran and I can understand why you reject the NT. However, I can state my view of Mohammed and the Koran without resorting to insult. And that is what I appreciated from others (most) who were able to do that as well.

To clear up a point I tried to make earlier, I can also revere what is in the OT, despite the differences, because the Jewish faith is the forerunner of Christianity and the OT is all pointing to the message and revelation that Jesus came and gave to us in the New Covenant. I don’t think Islam presents (or even tries to present but I could be wrong) a fullfillment of the OT and NT. That, and primarily the fact that Jesus stated that He is the fullfillment of God’s word (there would be no more public revelation through phophets), is why I reject it.

 

[FaithJoy]

To warn the Children of Israel of Allah’s coming judgment, to affirm the same truth that Abraham and Moses spoke (belief in one God), to foretell the coming of Muhammad.

According to Ibn Kathir:

Jesus was sent to ‘reform’ Judaism at that time - which was heavily corrupted. There are accounts of money-lending and commercial activities taking place in the Temple, which Jesus was opposed to and tried to stop. Jesus was also there to stop the priests from exploiting their power, which they were doing at that time.
Jesus was also sent to teach the Children of Israel the ‘true’ meaning and significance of the Sabbath, which the Jews of the time had forgotten and instead practiced it blindly without it’s true spiritual meaning.
Jesus was a ‘sign’ from God - a man who was born without a father, who could do miraculous things, and who stood up for the truth and tried to reform what needed to be reformed.
The Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah and Prophet signed their fate as having lost the title of the ‘Chosen People’ and as having the broken their Covenant with Allah.

Most importantly, Muslims believe that Jesus was the ‘Messiah’. Messiah meaning, ‘Anointed One’.
(Interestingly, in the Hadith, Muhammad sees Jesus, along with the Anti-Christ in a dream. Jesus is described as having his head wet and ‘water’ or ‘liquid’ dripping down from his hair.)
According to Muslim belief, Jesus is supposed to return to Earth at some point in the future to destroy the Anti-Christ, then later stop the Gog and Magog, and usher in an age of peace.

We don’t actually believe that Jesus ascended to Heaven literally. The Quran states that Jesus was raised to Allah. No mention of him being literally being placed in Heaven. I think the correct Islamic belief is to believe he is in ‘occultation’. He’s not dead, but he’s not here on Earth among us either. We don’t know where he is, all we know is that he isn’t dead and will come back at some point in the future.

Muhammad DID ascend to Heaven and even entered the Empyrean (but it was more of a tour thing). It is called the Mi’raj (ascension). One of the core parts of Islamic belief.

I read in a past thread, I can’t remember which one, but Muslims do visit Muhammad’s grave. That would mean he hasn’t ascended. He was on some tour or travel from Mecca to Jerusalem and back.So said that thread,that thread could have been wrong also.

 

[SnakeMauler]

I suppose you were under some kind of understanding that Muslims “don’t believe in Jesus,” since they’re an “‘Abrahamic’ religion, but not Christians.” They basically believe that Jesus is the Messiah but isn’t God. This is of course, makes no sense, but was thrown into their religion because I guess Muhammad figured Christians would be like “Hmm. This Muhammad guy is trying to kill us if we don’t convert. But you know, Jesus is in his religion too. Hmm. Maybe that’s a good reason to cooperate. I mean, it’s like we have Jesus and a few guys from the Bible, but some other stuff thrown in too about a Muhammad guy.” And then Jews just kind of shrug their shoulders like… OK? Jesus? So what. Some guy got himself killed and managed to muster up a few billion followers 2000 years later. Either that, or it was just some story made up by a few guys who ended up getting killed for it. Or, just a story.

Thats just my two cents. Please excuse any historical inaccuracies or anything.

-Snakemauler

 

[Kaninchen]

So are you saying Christ wasnt crucified or that he wasnt crucified for being a blasphemer?

If your saying he wasnt crucifid then why toes the Talmud mention his crucifixtion?

Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. … Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

Saying ‘Yeshua was hanged’ would be like saying ‘Dave was hanged’ in an American newspaper. Thousands upon thousands of Jews were being killed by the Romans, lots of them called Yeshua.

These ‘proof texts’/Josh McDowell approaches never get anywhere.

 

[Kaninchen]

I agree, which is why I reject the Koran and I can understand why you reject the NT. However, I can state my view of Mohammed and the Koran without resorting to insult. And that is what I appreciated from others (most) who were able to do that as well.

Bluntness isn’t the same as an insult.

 

[Heliotropium]

Saying ‘Yeshua was hanged’ would be like saying ‘Dave was hanged’ in an American newspaper. Thousands upon thousands of Jews were being killed by the Romans, lots of them called Yeshua.

These ‘proof texts’/Josh McDowell approaches never get anywhere.

Yeshua was hanged on the eve of Passover is not he same as saying dave was hanged. I also find it hard to believe that the Sanhedrin would take the time to document the death of a “nobody” in the Talmud. No I think the evidence speaks for itself unless Important people name Dave were being hanged left and right during the same time Jesus lived and was said to have been cruicified by our wacky Christian scriptures.

 

[Kaninchen]

No I think the evidence speaks for itself

Facts do not speak for themselves. They speak for or against competing theories. Facts divorced from theories or visions are mere isolated curiosities.

Thomas Sowell

I’m sure you can google the various interpretations.

 

[aicirt]

I find it funny how everyone is surprised that Jews don’t think of Jesus as anything special. Think about, he turned their way of life on its head. Without Jesus I assume that all (or at least most) Christians would be Jews.

However, I don’t hold a grudge, or blame Jews for not accepting Jesus, they are holding on to their traditions that God passed down to them. I can understand why it would be hard to accept Jesus, who seems to go against some of these.

I seriously doubt that they’d be Jews. Jews didn’t and don’t seek converts.

 

[wwolverine]

To warn the Children of Israel of Allah’s coming judgment, to affirm the same truth that Abraham and Moses spoke (belief in one God), to foretell the coming of Muhammad.

According to Ibn Kathir:

Jesus was sent to ‘reform’ Judaism at that time - which was heavily corrupted. There are accounts of money-lending and commercial activities taking place in the Temple, which Jesus was opposed to and tried to stop. Jesus was also there to stop the priests from exploiting their power, which they were doing at that time.
Jesus was also sent to teach the Children of Israel the ‘true’ meaning and significance of the Sabbath, which the Jews of the time had forgotten and instead practiced it blindly without it’s true spiritual meaning.
Jesus was a ‘sign’ from God - a man who was born without a father, who could do miraculous things, and who stood up for the truth and tried to reform what needed to be reformed.
The Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah and Prophet signed their fate as having lost the title of the ‘Chosen People’ and as having the broken their Covenant with Allah.

Most importantly, Muslims believe that Jesus was the ‘Messiah’. Messiah meaning, ‘Anointed One’.
(Interestingly, in the Hadith, Muhammad sees Jesus, along with the Anti-Christ in a dream. Jesus is described as having his head wet and ‘water’ or ‘liquid’ dripping down from his hair.)
According to Muslim belief, Jesus is supposed to return to Earth at some point in the future to destroy the Anti-Christ, then later stop the Gog and Magog, and usher in an age of peace.

We don’t actually believe that Jesus ascended to Heaven literally. The Quran states that Jesus was raised to Allah. No mention of him being literally being placed in Heaven. I think the correct Islamic belief is to believe he is in ‘occultation’. He’s not dead, but he’s not here on Earth among us either. We don’t know where he is, all we know is that he isn’t dead and will come back at some point in the future.

Muhammad DID ascend to Heaven and even entered the Empyrean (but it was more of a tour thing). It is called the Mi’raj (ascension). One of the core parts of Islamic belief.

Who was Ibn Khatir? A prophet? As far as I know according to muslims, the book quran was a revealed book by allah, and so what you say should be from quran, Was also book revealed to ibn khatir?

 

[jakasaki]

**Who was Ibn Khatir? **

A prophet? As far as I know according to muslims, the book quran was a revealed book by allah, and so what you say should be from quran, Was also book revealed to ibn khatir?

He was some islamic scholar during the early 1300’s who wrote commentary for the koran.

 

[wwolverine]

yet muslims and jews are much closer then jews and christians

i have met jews who call you polytheists,and islam is not either too far from calling you that.The trinity thing is all but jewish and islamic

Is that so? than why do i read the chants from muslim world saying death to the jews? There are many who revere Hitler too cause he killed 5 million Jews.

Maybe I am wrong in my assumption?

 

[wwolverine]

He was some islamic scholar during the early 1300’s who wrote commentary for the koran.

Thanks Pam, but what I dont understand is why do muslims quote all the hadiths when they have a quran which according to them is a direct word of allah, so why this ibn khatir, or other hadith writers? Did allah reveal the books to them too because the quran was not complete?

Just my thoughts.