Jews and Palestinians

[Cathdefender]

I just saw a terrible video on youtube about a wall that is being built around the Palestinians, that keeps them from water, food and their livlihood. It was titled “Wall of Hate”. The Palestinian people looked to be suffering terribly with their children.
I need to know the truth about these two peoples who are clashing over there. Why are the Palestinian people suffering so much at the hands of the Jews? Why so much hatred toward these people? Is this what God intended for his 'chosen people?"
I would seriously like to know why these atrocities are happening. I was shocked at this ‘wall’. It said the people went all the way to the supreme court and realized afterward that the ‘wall’ is illegal.

Any comments?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t claim to be an expert concerning every aspect of this struggle, but I do read, and I do know some “Palestinians”, and I think I can say the following without great fear of being proved wrong. Certainly, there will be those who argue otherwise, but the real proof is a trifle short.

In a way, there is no such thing as a “Palestinian”. Palestinians consider themselves simply Arabs. Arabic society is tribal, not national. Israelis do, in fact, “do business” with Arabs, and quite a bit of it. There are Islamic and Christian Arabs in Israel itself and there, enjoy greater rights and prosperity than in any other country in the Middle East.

Most “Palestinians” actually live in Jordan. Most Jordanians are “Palestinians”. Jordan and Israel live in peace with each other and there are business relationships between them. If Israel offered the West Bank back to Jordan today, Jordan wouldn’t take it.

Jordan wouldn’t take it for the same reason Jordan forcibly removed Fatah from Jordan years ago. The “Palestinian governments” of the West Bank and Gaza are, in fact, more like criminal gangs than they are like legitimate governments. If the FBI, the California State Police and L.A. police can’t suppress the Crips, the Bloods or MS-13, having massive resources to do it, how could a small nation like Jordan suppress Fatah or Hamas?

Israel is the target of “Palestinian” terrorist groups. That’s just a fact. The U.S. is struggling with the notion of a “wall” at the U.S. border just to keep out illegal immigrants. How much more would we do it if we knew there were suicide bombers in great numbers wanting to cross the border and blow up civilians?

There are Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and Jews have always lived there. The West Bank is a small place. The walls’ purpose is to restrict movement of terrorists into Israel and Jewish areas in the West Bank. Being a small place, it is extremely inconvenient for all concerned. It cannot be seriously questioned that, if they could, the citizens of L.A. would similarly wall off gang-controlled neighborhoods. But they can’t. Those who can afford it wall themselves in. What we’re seeing in the West Bank is some of both.

There are no “interior walled areas” in Gaza, which has been turned over to the Arab residents there, and the Jews left. There are exterior barriers. Jews are not willing to leave the West Bank, having always lived there.

“Palestinian” groups like Hamas have the ear of the far left; people whose interest is in condemning America. They view Israel as an “outpost” or “colony” of the U.S. They are very good at ginning up propaganda, which is what I suspect you saw on YouTube.

 

[dosdog]

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (November 29, 1947)
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state.

It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list). Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the UN announced partition on November 29, 1947.

The War of 1948 Myths & Facts
MYTH
“The Jews started the first war with the Arabs.”

FACT
The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."1 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews. 2 Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee’s spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood.

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948: The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight

MYTH
“The United States was the only nation that criticized the Arab attack on Israel.”

FACT
The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948, and immediately indicted the Arabs for their aggression. The United States urged a resolution charging the Arabs with breach of the peace. Soviet delegate Andrei Gromyko told the Security Council, May 29, 1948: This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council

On July 15, the Security Council threatened to cite the Arab governments for aggression under the UN Charter. By this time, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) had succeeded in stopping the Arab offensive and the initial phase of the fighting ended.

MYTH
“The Arab economic boycott of Israel was imposed after the 1948 war.”

FACT
The Arab boycott was formally declared by the newly formed Arab League Council on December 2, 1945: “Jewish products and manufactured goods shall be considered undesirable to the Arab countries.”

In 1977, Congress prohibited U.S. companies from cooperating with the Arab boycott. When President Carter signed the law,
The Arabs not only rejected partition, but attacked Israel from all sides. The armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq invaded Israel on May 15, 1947, the day after Israel’s Independence Day, with the clear intention of killing the infant state in its cradle.

On May 15, 1947 Azzam Pasha called for “jihad”, saying:
This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, agreed with Pasha:
I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!

In a letter to the United Nations, the Transjordanian Prime Minister was quoted:
Our position is clear, and has been proclaimed on every occasion. It is never to allow the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine and to exclude partition. And our object is to cooperate with the other Arab States in her deliverance. Once this aim is attained, the determination of her future status is the right and concern of her own people. Theirs alone is the last word. We have no other object or aim in view.

In favour: 33
Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13
Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10
Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/partition.html
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf4.html
palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_un_arabrejection.php

 

[Ed_Rand]

Most of this is just plain absurd, but I’ll cover a few points.

In a way, there is no such thing as a “Palestinian”.

What way is that? Palestinians are those who were living in what is now Israel for centuries until 1949. No, they weren’t called that before. But these people do actualy exist in real life reality, really, believe it or not, these are really real people, it’s not a liberal conspiracy. (btw, this is by far the most absurd thing you said)

Most “Palestinians” actually live in Jordan. Most Jordanians are “Palestinians”.

These are called “refugees” my friend.

If Israel offered the West Bank back to Jordan today, Jordan wouldn’t take it.

Really? Jordan wouldn’t take back the West Bank from Israel and give it to the millions of impoverished refugee Palestinians which are dispersed in all the neighboring Arab countries? Absurd.

There are Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and Jews have always lived there.

The population of Jews in all of the land that Israel now occupies was less than 10% at the beginning of the 20th century. There may be a few 3rd generation Israeli’s in Israel today. There are virtually none who have lived there for centuries like the Palestinians have. As for the West Bank, those settlements have been being built since the '67 war. There may be a few Jews who have been there since before 1948, but the 500,000+ Jews who have settled there now are quite new to the area. This is a major breach of International law. Everyday the Israeli government encourages actions that the Nazi’s were hanged for. That wall that is at issue here is being built so that it encompasses large parts of the West Bank. These settlements and the wall are going up at the same time that we’re supposed to be finding a 2 state solution. Wow, I wonder why Palestinians have resorted to violence?

The West Bank is a small place.

In comparison to what? It is a large part of what Israel now occupies. And it’s supposed to be the largest contiguous portion of the future Palestinian state–except the Israeli’s are separating it by building more and more settlements.

There are no “interior walled areas” in Gaza, which has been turned over to the Arab residents there, and the Jews left.There are exterior barriers.

True. I have heard this likened to realeasing the prisoners from their cells but keeping the prison closed. It is an accurate analogy. Israel enters Gaza at will. They control the water supply, airspace, and all the supply routes. Remember what happened when the Palestinians voted for Hamas in a democratic election? The Israeli’s immediatly put them in a stranglehold.

Jews are not willing to leave the West Bank, having always lived there.

We’ll just say that you were misinformed. From this point forward, do not spread lies like this.

Palestinian" groups like Hamas have the ear of the far left; people whose interest is in condemning America.

I’ve never understood this assertion and I’ve heard it a million times. Why would I go looking for reasons to hate my country? It is natural for a person to want to be patriotic because it would make my life much more guilt free. Do you know how hard it is to participate in the economy of this country at the same time knowing that a large portion of the wealth I generate goes to oppress people around the world? It’s just those little pesky things called facts get in the way sometimes. You seem to have no problem brushing them aside. Congratulations.

I love it how you made sure to use quotes around “Palestinians” the whole way through your post… Hilarious!!!

 

[Cathdefender]

I don’t claim to be an expert concerning every aspect of this struggle, but I do read, and I do know some “Palestinians”, and I think I can say the following without great fear of being proved wrong. Certainly, there will be those who argue otherwise, but the real proof is a trifle short.

In a way, there is no such thing as a “Palestinian”. Palestinians consider themselves simply Arabs. Arabic society is tribal, not national. Israelis do, in fact, “do business” with Arabs, and quite a bit of it. There are Islamic and Christian Arabs in Israel itself and there, enjoy greater rights and prosperity than in any other country in the Middle East.

Most “Palestinians” actually live in Jordan. Most Jordanians are “Palestinians”. Jordan and Israel live in peace with each other and there are business relationships between them. If Israel offered the West Bank back to Jordan today, Jordan wouldn’t take it.

Jordan wouldn’t take it for the same reason Jordan forcibly removed Fatah from Jordan years ago. The “Palestinian governments” of the West Bank and Gaza are, in fact, more like criminal gangs than they are like legitimate governments. If the FBI, the California State Police and L.A. police can’t suppress the Crips, the Bloods or MS-13, having massive resources to do it, how could a small nation like Jordan suppress Fatah or Hamas?

Israel is the target of “Palestinian” terrorist groups. That’s just a fact. The U.S. is struggling with the notion of a “wall” at the U.S. border just to keep out illegal immigrants. How much more would we do it if we knew there were suicide bombers in great numbers wanting to cross the border and blow up civilians?

There are Jewish settlements in the West Bank, and Jews have always lived there. The West Bank is a small place. The walls’ purpose is to restrict movement of terrorists into Israel and Jewish areas in the West Bank. Being a small place, it is extremely inconvenient for all concerned. It cannot be seriously questioned that, if they could, the citizens of L.A. would similarly wall off gang-controlled neighborhoods. But they can’t. Those who can afford it wall themselves in. What we’re seeing in the West Bank is some of both.

There are no “interior walled areas” in Gaza, which has been turned over to the Arab residents there, and the Jews left. There are exterior barriers. Jews are not willing to leave the West Bank, having always lived there.

“Palestinian” groups like Hamas have the ear of the far left; people whose interest is in condemning America. They view Israel as an “outpost” or “colony” of the U.S. They are very good at ginning up propaganda, which is what I suspect you saw on YouTube.

I would hardly compare this “Wall of Hate” to the wall built in the U.S. to keep out illigal immigrants. We do not deprive these immigrants of food, water, and their livlihood. They can simply turn around and go home.
Although you say the West Bank is a small place, what makes that worse is that 42% of the West Bank has this wall with as long as 10 miles inside. It is 408 miles long and 6 feet and sometimes as much as 24 feet high. It has barb wire and is solid concrete.
Israel took control of their water and the irrigations. They also seperated families and they can’t even go to school or hospitals without fear and intimidation of these Israeli soldiers.
If the Jewish people want to have some sympathy about being persecuted in the past, then what about these innocent people who are being killed and their families destroyed each day by these very people? Just doesn’t make sense to me.
But I don’t know each side of the story except we are paying for this and each and every tax payer is paying for it also. I didn’t know this until tonite.

 

[Ed_Rand]

The best movie I’ve seen on the reality of the situation is Ripples Cross. It’s a documentary made by a Christian who experiences a bit of what Palestinians have been going through. Quite interesting. www.ripplescross.com also check out www.rachelcorrie.org.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine.

There are Palestinians. I don’t know what that guy above is saying that they’re just Arabs. They have a strong attachment to the land, they have lived there for centuries, and they are Palestinians, in the land which has been called Palestine since before the time of Christ.

It is true that Jews have lived in Palestine, too, just like Christians have. Being Palestinian doesn’t make someone a Muslim.

But the Jews that populate Israel, the Jews that live in Israel or the settlements, these are immigrants. Their families have moved to Israel in the last few generations, over the last century. It is not a historical population of Jews, but immigrants.

The settlements are illegal according to international law. These are little neighborhoods built on Palestinian land (according to the borders), scattered across the West Bank.

The Wall–commonly now called an Apartheid Wall (remember the apartheid of South Africa)–is not built on Israeli land, it is built on the Palestinian side. It encircles villages, cutting them off from their neighbors, from key water resources, from roads. And did I mention, it’s also built on Palestinian land?

What is happening is pretty clear–the Israelis are just trying to exterminate the native Palestinian population. To let them die in the next few generations, and then finish taking over all of the land now called the West Bank, and Gaza. The UN has repeatedly called on Israel to dismantle its settlements but it keeps building them–so that there will be a population of Jews on the land, making it even more difficult for it to ever be returned to the Palestinians.

I want to be clear, though. You said that Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Jews, which isn’t exactly true. They are suffering, more precisely, at the hand of the Israeli government and military. Their oppression is not by Jews, nor by Judaism, and it is not a religious conflict but a political one, and a struggle over land. Israel wants the land where the Palestinians live–it’s just that simple. The Palestinians are fighting back. Any religious tension imbued in the conflict is because any people, when oppressed, will seek solace in their faith, which is what the Palestinians are trying to do.

There are many people in Israel who honestly look at what is going on and protest the abuses against the Palestinians. There are movements of former soldiers from the IDF who are trying to promote peace in the region.

There are plenty of websites on this issue, I just linked one above that I think is pretty good. Some other ones are

alajnabiya.blogspot.com/ is a fair blog by an American woman living in Palestine.

electronicintifada.net/ gives the full-on Palestinian perspective, which I think is worth reading.

 

[bpbasilphx]

((In a way, there is no such thing as a “Palestinian”. Palestinians consider themselves simply Arabs((
**
Not the Palestinians I know, may of whom are Christians.

I suggest you read BLOOD BROTHERS by now Abp. Elias Chacour, Melkite Catholic Abp. of Nazareth and Galilee.**

 

[ralphinal]

Sister Amy hit on one of the problems: this is not a religious issue.

It is not Jews vs. Muslims. It is Isreali government taking action against non-Isreali citizens. Some are Christian, some are Muslims. The media, both Western and Muslim, has done a bang-up job of presenting it as a religious conflict. It most assuridly is not.

 

[Ridgerunner]

((In a way, there is no such thing as a “Palestinian”. Palestinians consider themselves simply Arabs((
**
Not the Palestinians I know, may of whom are Christians.

I suggest you read BLOOD BROTHERS by now Abp. Elias Chacour, Melkite Catholic Abp. of Nazareth and Galilee.**

Never, in all of history, was there a nation called “Palestine”. There certainly was a nation called “Israel”.

Perhaps we know different “Palestinians”. That society is profoundly tribal. The various tribes are in the West Bank, in Gaza, in Jordan, in Syria, in Egypt and elsewhere. They are concentrated, however, in the West Bank and Jordan, with most being in Jordan. Jordanians would laugh to hear anyone claim they are “refugees”. They have been there forever. A very good friend of mine is Jordanian, of a “Palestinian” tribe that is also found in the West Bank, Syria and Egypt. Most tribes get along with most other tribes, but not all do. His is a “commercial” tribe that historically has been in commerce pretty much forever, and still is. Arab tribes are not like “castes” in India, but there are similarities. He has stayed at the Royal Palace in Jordan, notwithstanding that the King is of a Bedouin tribe. Bedouins live in many Arab nations as well, and also consider themselves “Arabs”. And no, Jordan does not want the West Bank back. Not even the “Palestinians” (the majority of all Palestinians, and they have always been there) in Jordan.
His brother and father were nearly killed in the terrorist bombing of that wedding in Amman. His brother was shown in the news photos; the young man fleeing the hotel with blood on his shirt. But perhaps it wasn’t his blood only. The young lady across the table from him was beheaded by the blast. She, like he, was a Muslim. And for what did she die? Because the terrorist gangs want to rule the whole region, that’s why. He, himself, was shielded by a pillar. His father had stepped out of the hotel for a smoke just before the blast and was luckily uninjured. The people who actually live in that region know what’s what. Some are fortunate enough to know better than what the Islamist gang propaganda puts out or forces their captives or those who fear for their relatives under their power, to say.

And by the way, many, many, many “Palestinians” in the West Bank and in Jordan have good relations with the Israelis, though they don’t talk about it. They are the ones who want to live like human beings and let others live like human beings. But they, and everyone over there who doesn’t toe the Hamas/Fatah line is in constant danger of assassination.

My friend’s relative was the only freely elected “Palestinian” mayor the West Bank ever had. He was immensely popular. He worked out labor agreements with Israel so people of the town could work freely there and enter into commerce with Israelis. It really did improve the economy of the town until, of course, an offshoot of Fatah assassinated him. Couldn’t have peace and prosperity, now, could we? Better to keep the “Palestinians” in misery, poverty and terror. Better to fire rockets at Israeli children so the Israelis will return fire.

And the Arab states pay those gangs to leave them, themselves, alone. They’re just as big a potential threat to decent Arabs as they are a present threat to Israel. They’re worse than the Mafia ever dreamed of being, but just as crooked and just as corrupt.
That’s why Jordan drove the “Palestinian” gangs out of Jordan. They now rule the West Bank and Gaza.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Sister Amy hit on one of the problems: this is not a religious issue.

It is not Jews vs. Muslims. It is Isreali government taking action against non-Isreali citizens. Some are Christian, some are Muslims. The media, both Western and Muslim, has done a bang-up job of presenting it as a religious conflict. It most assuridly is not.

Agreed. It’s more like the Crips vs the Bloods and both against much more decent societies in Israel, Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere. Not in Syria, though, because they are sometimes in Syria’s hire and sometimes Syria kills them like dogs when they get out of line.

Having said that, however, it’s also true that the gangs put an Islamic overlay on everything. That helps when you want to incite the more ignorant of your people to genocide.

Arabs in Israel live materially better than Arabs anywhere else in the world except the oil states, and including in non-oil-rich, but Arab-ruled Jordan. And they have more rights than any Arabs anywhere in the Middle East.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would hardly compare this “Wall of Hate” to the wall built in the U.S. to keep out illigal immigrants.

But I don’t know each side of the story except we are paying for this and each and every tax payer is paying for it also. I didn’t know this until tonite.

And do you call the walls around gated neighborhoods in the U.S. cities “walls of hate”? Why do you think they have those walls? It isn’t hate. Those walls are there to protect the residents against predatory intruders within whose reach they would otherwise be. And many of those have interior walls and barriers to make fast movement through the community difficult. Many have security stations at which you must stop and identify yourself. Some, you can’t get into without proof you live in that community.

Are you not aware of the numerous, numerous assassinations of innocent civilians in Isarael? Are you not aware that terrorists move through the Muslim world (except for the dictator states like Syria and Iran) like fish through water? It is the first duty of every government to protect its people. Are you not aware that Yasser Arafat walked away from the establishment of a Palestinian state when it was handed to him? Do you not remember him onstage with Clinton pretending to accept it, then starting more attacks against Israelis? Even Clinton agreed that Arafat broke his word. Everybody knew it.

Are you not aware that Israel has offered peace to Hamas if Hamas will renounce its vow to destroy Israel? They’re not talking about Gaza or the West Bank here, but Israel itself. But no, Hamas wouldn’t do it. They can’t be happy until the Jews are all dead or driven into the sea. Sometimes you have to believe people when they say things like that. Sitting comfortably here in the U.S., you can afford to give away Israeli lives I guess. The Israelis can’t, and won’t.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

In the context of random suicide bombings, building the wall seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Many Palestinian groups have opened declared that Israel should be wiped off the map. It only seems natural that the random suicide bombings is a tactic for their goal, and Israel had to respond with the wall to protect itself.

 

[Ed_Rand]

The people who actually live in that region know what’s what.

Right, right. The people in the Middle East generally support what you’ve been saying here… Please continue. This is getting better and better.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Sister Amy hit on one of the problems: this is not a religious issue.

It is not Jews vs. Muslims. It is Isreali government taking action against non-Isreali citizens. Some are Christian, some are Muslims. The media, both Western and Muslim, has done a bang-up job of presenting it as a religious conflict. It most assuridly is not.

I have to disagree. I think you guys are trying to be too polite. Consider the requirements for a Jewish messiah:

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html

I would have to say this is an intensely religious battle.
You don’t think that the Zionist movement was initiated because the Jews require a gathering of the exiles? Sorry people, we have to face the issues here.

 

[wth1257]

Right, right. The people in the Middle East generally support what you’ve been saying here… Please continue. This is getting better and better.

It’s all propaganda, Palistinians think everything is fantastic, as seen here.

youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&feature=related

 

[Ridgerunner]

Really? Jordan wouldn’t take back the West Bank from Israel and give it to the millions of impoverished refugee Palestinians which are dispersed in all the neighboring Arab countries? Absurd.

Israel enters Gaza at will. They control the water supply, airspace, and all the supply routes. Remember what happened when the Palestinians voted for Hamas in a democratic election? The Israeli’s immediatly put them in a stranglehold.

Why do you suppose Jordan never clamors for return of the West Bank and Egypt never clamors for the return of Gaza? They don’t want them back, that’s why.

As strange as it may seem to you, Jordan does not want a gangster state on its borders. One more time, now. Listen closely. Do you not know Jordan drove those same people out of Jordan and into Lebanon? Do you not know why? It was because Jordan did not want a terrorist gang within its own borders; a gang that was carrying on terrorist activities inside Jordan. It drove them into Lebanon because it didn’t want them on its borders either. But they’re on those borders now. Why do you think Jordan likes them any better now? Remember again, that most Jordanians are “Palestinians” and most “Palestinians” are Jordanians. Did you miss that before? Did you miss the part where a mostly “Palestinian” state drove “Palestinians” out of that part of Palestine called Jordan and into a country called Lebanon?
Israelis didn’t do that. “Palestinians” did.

Now, recently, a gang called “Hamas”, which is in the pay of Iran, drove another gang called “Fatah”, which is in the pay of Saudi Arabia, out of Gaza. Killed a bunch of them while they were at it. The Israelis didn’t do that. “Palestinians” did.

I put the term “Palestinians” in quotation marks because somehow you think the residents of the West Bank and Gaza are a discrete national group, like “Germans”. They aren’t. You think they are somehow exclusively entitled to a part of what is known as “Palestine”, which part you wish to call “Palestine”, as if it was the whole. It isn’t. Do you not know that Gaza was part of Egypt? Do you call the residents there “Egyptians” because of that? They were Egyptians before. Why aren’t they now? Do you think somehow the residents there are as different from Egyptians as, say, Swedes are from Italians?

If you think those things, you are terribly wrong. There is no difference at all between the majority of Jordanians and the people you call “Palestinians” except that the former live under a relatively benign, real government while the latter live under gangster rule.

Israel does not control the entry routes to Gaza. It controls two sides because those borders are with Israel. Egypt controls another (and keeps barriers there). The fourth is the sea.

“Palestinians” in the West Bank are as free to enter Jordan as one is free to enter Jordan from any other direction. They are not free to enter Israel because of suicide bombers and assassins entering Israel from there.

 

[wth1257]

Why do you suppose Jordan never clamors for return of the West Bank and Egypt never clamors for the return of Gaza? They don’t want them back, that’s why.

As strange as it may seem to you, Jordan does not want a gangster state on its borders. One more time, now. Listen closely. Do you not know Jordan drove those same people out of Jordan and into Lebanon? Do you not know why? It was because Jordan did not want a terrorist gang within its own borders; a gang that was carrying on terrorist activities inside Jordan. It drove them into Lebanon because it didn’t want them on its borders either. But they’re on those borders now. Why do you think Jordan likes them any better now? Remember again, that most Jordanians are “Palestinians” and most “Palestinians” are Jordanians. Did you miss that before? Did you miss the part where a mostly “Palestinian” state drove “Palestinians” out of that part of Palestine called Jordan and into a country called Lebanon?
Israelis didn’t do that. “Palestinians” did.

Now, recently, a gang called “Hamas”, which is in the pay of Iran, drove another gang called “Fatah”, which is in the pay of Saudi Arabia, out of Gaza. Killed a bunch of them while they were at it. The Israelis didn’t do that. “Palestinians” did.

I put the term “Palestinians” in quotation marks because somehow you think the residents of the West Bank and Gaza are a discrete national group, like “Germans”. They aren’t. You think they are somehow exclusively entitled to a part of what is known as “Palestine”, which part you wish to call “Palestine”, as if it was the whole. It isn’t. Do you not know that Gaza was part of Egypt? Do you call the residents there “Egyptians” because of that? They were Egyptians before. Why aren’t they now? Do you think somehow the residents there are as different from Egyptians as, say, Swedes are from Italians?

If you think those things, you are terribly wrong. There is no difference at all between the majority of Jordanians and the people you call “Palestinians” except that the former live under a relatively benign, real government while the latter live under gangster rule.

Israel does not control the entry routes to Gaza. It controls two sides because those borders are with Israel. Egypt controls another (and keeps barriers there). The fourth is the sea.

“Palestinians” in the West Bank are as free to enter Jordan as one is free to enter Jordan from any other direction. They are not free to enter Israel because of suicide bombers and assassins entering Israel from there.

What do you thinc of the video CBC Shot?

 

[Ed_Rand]

Why do you suppose Jordan never clamors for return of the West Bank and Egypt never clamors for the return of Gaza? They don’t want them back, that’s why.

Of course they don’t want them back. They are the most volatile areas in the world now. They just don’t want Israel to occupy them and oppress the people. They only took control of them because they wanted to stop the Jews from taking it all.

As strange as it may seem to you, Jordan does not want a gangster state on its borders.

Jordan already has the most notorious gangster state on its borders–Israel.

Remember again, that most Jordanians are “Palestinians”

false. It’s quite strange that you can’t get your mind around the fact that there are a distinct group of people–not Egyptions and not Jordanians–that want to get their land back.

In situations like this I start to wonder about the chemistry of the brain. After all, thoughts are just chemical reactions, right? There must be some combination of chemicals that act as an inhibitor to new thought process. We can land men on the moon but we can’t make some sort of pill to help this guy?

and most “Palestinians” are Jordanians.

false.

The Jordanians have been the most sympathetic nation to the Palestinian cause and have granted citizenship to many. But the majority of Palestinians do not have citizenship in any country.

I put the term “Palestinians” in quotation marks because somehow you think the residents of the West Bank and Gaza are a discrete national group, like “Germans”.

Before their exile from Israel, I don’t doubt that most of these people would have argued about their national identity and that it wasn’t so clear. But since then, they have defined themselves according to their circumstances. Palestinians are (roughly), the people who live(d) in the land now occupied by Israel. So before, they weren’t a distinct group, now they are because it has been forced on them.

Do you not know that Gaza was part of Egypt?

Because of the Israeli invasion. It was part of Egypt from 1949-67.

They were Egyptians before.

nope.

There is no difference at all between the majority of Jordanians and the people you call “Palestinians”

Except their ancestral homeland.

Really, this has gone on long enough. A quick google search will certainly help you.

 

[LutheranDK]

I have to disagree. I think you guys are trying to be too polite. Consider the requirements for a Jewish messiah:

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html

I would have to say this is an intensely religious battle.
You don’t think that the Zionist movement was initiated because the Jews require a gathering of the exiles? Sorry people, we have to face the issues here.

The zionist movement, “friend”, came to as the culmination of centuries of anti-semitism, that had resulted in many mass persecutions of the Jews, and even more minor.
Zionism is basically the idea that the Jewish people has the same right to a homeland as do the British, Danish, German, etc, people. And, most importantly: The fulfillment of the zionist dream, the state of Israel, is the ONLY guarantee that the nightmare that was the Holocaust NEVER happens again.
When the Jewish people has a strong, battle-ready (but peaceloving) state they can emigrate to in case Europe once again gets too hot, then the threat of Holocaust is over. Barring, of course, that the Arab regimes get their wet dreams fulfilled with the help of some disgusting European states (thinking France and Germany), and their equally disgusting supporters in other countries…(and some internet forums…)

I think that’s why Israel has the bomb. Should the Arabs come close to success - their armies will be the once that will be “removed from the face of the Earth”

Israel is not the agressor here and now. Israel is the attacked part, and has a legitimate right to self-defence. Period.