Jews and Palestinians

[Ridgerunner]

Of course they don’t want them back. They are the most volatile areas in the world now. They just don’t want Israel to occupy them and oppress the people. They only took control of them because they wanted to stop the Jews from taking it all. ** Correct. They don’t want them back. They took control of them in the first place because the Brits set them up that way. **

Jordan already has the most notorious gangster state on its borders–Israel. **Interesting, then, that Jordan has lived in peace with Israel for many years. Evidently you are not aware that Jordan and Israel have very cooperative economic and political relationships, including intelligence and anti-terror cooperation. **

It’s quite strange that you can’t get your mind around the fact that there are a distinct group of people–not Egyptions and not Jordanians–that want to get their land back. It isn’t at all difficult to get my mind around what is simply a fact.

In situations like this I start to wonder about the chemistry of the brain. After all, thoughts are just chemical reactions, right? Perhaps believing this is your first mistake.

The Jordanians have been the most sympathetic nation to the Palestinian cause ** And if a war conducted by Jordan against this “cause” does not convince you this is false, I don’t expect anything will. **

Before their exile from Israel, I don’t doubt that most of these people would have argued about their national identity and that it wasn’t so clear. It was as clear as was any Arab “national identity” (Egypt excepted). The majority of “Palestinians” national identity before the 1967 war was that of Jordanian; a smaller number being Egyptian, a smaller number being those who left Israel and a smaller number are presently Israelis. But since then, they have defined themselves according to their circumstances. Palestinians are (roughly), the people who live(d) in the land now occupied by Israel. So before, they weren’t a distinct group, now they are because it has been forced on them. They aren’t even a distinct group now. Some are ruled by Hamas. Some are ruled by Fatah. The two war against each other. Some are kept in miserable conditions by Arab states in which they live. The fortunate ones are the ones living in Israel as Israeli citizens.

Really, this has gone on long enough. A quick google search will certainly help you. ** I have little doubt many internet articles can be found condemning Israel; many simply being propaganda. I prefer to read real history, myself, and to talk to “Palestinians” who really know who’s who and what’s what. **

 

[inJESUS]

. Do you not know Jordan drove those same people out of Jordan and into Lebanon? Do you not know why? It was because Jordan did not want a terrorist gang within its own borders; a gang that was carrying on terrorist activities inside Jordan. It drove them into Lebanon because it didn’t want them on its borders either. But they’re on those borders now. Why do you think Jordan likes them any better now?

correct, and we Lebanese have been suffering for 35 years, starting a war caused by Palestinians on our land…if we did like Jordan, we would have saved ourselves too many wars…

Remember again, that most Jordanians are “Palestinians”

 

[inJESUS]

I would have to say this is an intensely religious battle.

i agree that religion plays a good part as well as politics since Islam teaches that Muslims will annihilate the Jews at the end of days…so i think Muslims are striving to fulfill Muhammad’s words, that is why anyone who is against this is labelled as a zionist or infidel …we hear this every single day on tv…

 

[ralphinal]

I have to disagree. I think you guys are trying to be too polite. Consider the requirements for a Jewish messiah:

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html

I would have to say this is an intensely religious battle.
You don’t think that the Zionist movement was initiated because the Jews require a gathering of the exiles? Sorry people, we have to face the issues here.

You are making the assertion that modern Isreal is the same as the nation founded by God in the Bible. That may or may not be the case. There are a number of Jews in this world who hold that teh Zionist movement did not re-create the same nation. They hold that when God wants them there, he will get them there.

From your website

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

No one who was involved in the formation of the modern nation was the Messiah, so that is one strike against it being the same.

Now, both sides do hold to religious overtones, but the actual issues are not faith based. Greed, power, jelousy, and other base emotions have more to do with it than anything else. The religion gives them a rallying cry that sells well with others.

 

[morning_star777]

my opinion is,ppl(muslim)of palestine always want to destroy israel.neither why they voted the terrorist group hamas?i guess its a fashion to blame israel for everything.i believe that israel is just defending itself from terrorists&jew ppls have the right to defend themselves.now supporters of palestine,1st ask hamas&hizbollah stop attacking inside israel then if israel will attack 1st,then blame israel.but 1st control the terrorist groups.

 

[Cathdefender]

And what about the U.S. who is funding Israel and all the tax payers?

 

[dosdog]

And what about the U.S. who is funding Israel and all the tax payers?

Egyptian Christians Call on U.S. to Stop Funding Egypt’s Human Rights Abuses;

"Egypt is the second largest recipient of U.S. tax dollars. Yet Egypt’s record of human rights abuses against its minority citizens is staggering.
newsunfiltered.com/archives/2006/04/egyptian_christ.html

Where are thier Supposed Arab Brothers?

Shiek need a new Limo?

Instead of buying Uzis & Suicide bombs maybe they should build some houses

 

[dosdog]

Wednesday, June 11, 2008
The Israeli attack came after militants bombarded southern Israel with 20 mortar rounds in the space of an hour, and Hamas said the strike killed three members of one of its mortar squads

Gaza militants have been bombarding southern Israel with rocket and mortar attacks for seven years, but increased their rate of fire after Israel pulled its troops and settlers out of the territory in 2005. The attacks ratcheted up after Hamas militants overran Gaza a year ago.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

 

[Sister_Amy]

Palestine is a real place. Do any of you have Bibles with maps of the region circa the time of Jesus? They are all labeled “Palestine.”

The land of the Sham (Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) was part of the Ottoman Empire until it fell after WW1. Then Europe split it up and sort of half-colonized it. 1917.

Massive immigration of Jews into Palestine which was an actual place disrupted the balance, with the Jews seizing the land from the residents and eventually declaring statehood.

Think of how Europeans moved into America, forcing the native population to move further and further West, even though they had been living in these places for generations, for centuries.

There are Arabs living in Israel, and there are Arabs who live in the West Bank, and Gaza. All you who are saying that Arabs have it so great in Israel are indeed talking about Israel. But the Arabs who live in the West Bank and Gaza live in poverty, cut off from neighbors, from family, from water sources. The children face roadblocks on their way, walking to school. The population isn’t able to move throughout the country, which has been fractured by the new Israeli roads and settlements (all on Palestinian land, all illegal), and often they can’t move in or out of the country.

Essentially it’s an open-air prison.

 

[LutheranDK]

Palestine is a real place. Do any of you have Bibles with maps of the region circa the time of Jesus? They are all labeled “Palestine.”

The land of the Sham (Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) was part of the Ottoman Empire until it fell after WW1. Then Europe split it up and sort of half-colonized it. 1917.

Massive immigration of Jews into Palestine which was an actual place disrupted the balance, with the Jews seizing the land from the residents and eventually declaring statehood.

Think of how Europeans moved into America, forcing the native population to move further and further West, even though they had been living in these places for generations, for centuries.

There are Arabs living in Israel, and there are Arabs who live in the West Bank, and Gaza. All you who are saying that Arabs have it so great in Israel are indeed talking about Israel. But the Arabs who live in the West Bank and Gaza live in poverty, cut off from neighbors, from family, from water sources. The children face roadblocks on their way, walking to school. The population isn’t able to move throughout the country, which has been fractured by the new Israeli roads and settlements (all on Palestinian land, all illegal), and often they can’t move in or out of the country.

Essentially it’s an open-air prison.

LOL

“Palestine” was never the term used for an independant country with an own identity! Palestine was a Roman province, then a Byzantine province, then a province of miscellaneous Arab regimes (during which there was an influx of Arabs that would make the Jewish Aliyah seem like a drop of water in an ocean), then divided into various crusader kingdoms, then Arab once again, then Turkish, and after WW1 the British took control, and finally passed on control to the UN.

There never was a “Palestinian” state of any kind, and to claim the opposite is just plain ludacrous (typo…).

Your blatantly anti-semitic “description” of the proces that formed the state of Israel seems to be taken straight from the propaganda materials of Hamas, and therefore I’m not going to dignify that filth with an answer.
Just say this: To talk about “Palestinian” like its more of a seperate identity from the overall Arab identity, is like saying that New Yorkers are a whole nother people from “New Jerseyans”. Obviously ridiculous.

The Arab states have the key to solving the Arab refugee-problem, and the “Palestinian” leadership has the key to getting the security fence taken down.
The first needs to grant citizenship to the refugees and assimilate them into their countries like Israel did with the 700.000 Jewish refugees that the Arab hordes drove from their homes.
The second needs to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, and bring an effective end to terrorism.

If those two criteria are met, peace will be much more easily achieved. But true - it’s easier to claim the part of the victim, and make it look like Israel is the bad guy…

 

[Ridgerunner]

Palestine is a real place. Do any of you have Bibles with maps of the region circa the time of Jesus? They are all labeled “Palestine.” ** There are also maps showing the Roman Empire and places like “Austrasia, Tartary and Neustria” That doesn’t mean they somehow have a right to be reconstituted today.**

The land of the Sham (Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) was part of the Ottoman Empire until it fell after WW1. Then Europe split it up and sort of half-colonized it. 1917.

Massive immigration of Jews into Palestine which was an actual place disrupted the balance, with the Jews seizing the land from the residents and eventually declaring statehood. ** The Jews BOUGHT the land, much of it from Turks who owned it.**

Think of how Europeans moved into America, forcing the native population to move further and further West, even though they had been living in these places for generations, for centuries. ** You should read the histories of how those tribes had previously displaced and/or massacred other tribes that were there before them; some quite shortly before the white settlers came. **

There are Arabs living in Israel, and there are Arabs who live in the West Bank, and Gaza. All you who are saying that Arabs have it so great in Israel are indeed talking about Israel. But the Arabs who live in the West Bank and Gaza live in poverty, cut off from neighbors, from family, from water sources. The children face roadblocks on their way, walking to school. The population isn’t able to move throughout the country, which has been fractured by the new Israeli roads and settlements (all on Palestinian land, all illegal), and often they can’t move in or out of the country. ** Maybe the moral of this story is that it’s better, as an Arab, to be ruled by Israel than by Fatah or Hamas. Sometimes even the obvious is true.**

 

[Ed_Rand]

You are making the assertion that modern Isreal is the same as the nation founded by God in the Bible. That may or may not be the case. There are a number of Jews in this world who hold that teh Zionist movement did not re-create the same nation. They hold that when God wants them there, he will get them there.

From your website

No one who was involved in the formation of the modern nation was the Messiah, so that is one strike against it being the same.

Now, both sides do hold to religious overtones, but the actual issues are not faith based. Greed, power, jelousy, and other base emotions have more to do with it than anything else. The religion gives them a rallying cry that sells well with others.

I never claimed that the modern state of Israel is akin to the one in the Bible. But believe me, many many many Israeli’s do. Actually, I’d say it’s an abomination.

 

[Sepharad]

I just saw a terrible video on youtube about a wall that is being built around the Palestinians, that keeps them from water, food and their livlihood. It was titled “Wall of Hate”. The Palestinian people looked to be suffering terribly with their children.
I need to know the truth about these two peoples who are clashing over there. Why are the Palestinian people suffering so much at the hands of the Jews? Why so much hatred toward these people? Is this what God intended for his 'chosen people?"
I would seriously like to know why these atrocities are happening. I was shocked at this ‘wall’. It said the people went all the way to the supreme court and realized afterward that the ‘wall’ is illegal.

Any comments?

You need to know that not all Jews are zionists; in fact, most zionists I have met are fundamentalist Christians, not Jews.

Judaism teaches to respect and care for the stranger (non-Jew), not persecute him in any way.

zionism is a non-Jewish heresy, according to the most religious of the Orthodox…see jewsagainstzionism.com This is one of many websites that teach what Judaism actually says about Jews occupying the Holy Land before the Messiah comes.

Please do not confuse Judaism and zionism, they are NOT the same thing.

Many Orthodox Jews view zionism as the modern-day golden calf, for it enables non-religious Jews to still feel as if they are acting as committed Jews, as long as they speak out for the zionist entity, even if they are not Torah observant.

 

[Ed_Rand]

correct, and we Lebanese have been suffering for 35 years, starting a war caused by Palestinians on our land…if we did like Jordan, we would have saved ourselves too many wars…

 

[Ed_Rand]

You need to know that not all Jews are zionists; in fact, most zionists I have met are fundamentalist Christians, not Jews.

Judaism teaches to respect and care for the stranger (non-Jew), not persecute him in any way.

zionism is a non-Jewish heresy, according to the most religious of the Orthodox…see jewsagainstzionism.com This is one of many websites that teach what Judaism actually says about Jews occupying the Holy Land before the Messiah comes.

Please do not confuse Judaism and zionism, they are NOT the same thing.

Many Orthodox Jews view zionism as the modern-day golden calf, for it enables non-religious Jews to still feel as if they are acting as committed Jews, as long as they speak out for the zionist entity, even if they are not Torah observant.

Now that is an excellent post, sir. Thank you so much. I was beginning to lose hope in this whole forum.

 

[Ridgerunner]

inJESUS;3796330:

inJESUS, what is the root cause of this Palestinian problem?

You and I have had great discussions in the past days, but the fact that you are defending this man makes me think I’ve been talking to a lunatic. During the time when Jordanians lived in a place called Palestine, Lebanon was part of Greater Syria. Shouldn’t you rightfully be called a Syrian? ** A truly, truly bizarre statement, from every standpoint.**

Ridgerunner mentioned earlier how the many tribes of America were warring before the Europeans. True. However, the Europeans increasingly saw no difference between these peoples because they wanted all their land. They were only Indians, people in the way. So Indians started out quite divided, but in opposition to the European advance, they increasingly identified with each other against a common enemy. **Utter nonsense. In no Indian War were the whites without Indian allies. Sometimes the Indians made up the biggest part of the “white” forces. Almost never were Indian tribes united against the whites. **

The same is true of Palestinians. The people who have lived in what is now Jordan for centuries are not Palestinians. **That would be news to Jordanian “Palestinians”, which is the majority of the population of that country. ** “Palestinians” refers to those who lived and are living in the land which Israel now occupies. **So people in Gaza are not “Palestinians” then? More and more bizarre. ** I have no doubt that they were very divided amongst themselves in times past. But the recreation of the state of Israel in 1949 has forced them to define themselves as a people, since they have much more in common now. And that, perhaps, is why Hamas and Fatah are at war with each other? Because they have so much in common?

This is all so simple. By the way, you and Ridgerunner don’t get to define what “Palestinian” means, they do. ** And most Jordanians would so define themselves. Not that you will pay any attention, but “Palestinian” is a fundamentally TRIBAL appellation, like “Bedouin”. It refers to people whose tribes predominate in the general region. But there are “Palestinians” all over the world. They form a disproportionately large segment of the “middle managers” all over the Middle East. **

And I know that the Palestinian situation has caused a lot of strife in your country, but you must try harder to see the root cause of that. ** Which, right now, is the Iranian/Syrian proxy, Hezbollah. Israelis are not in Lebanon. Hezbollah and Syria are the problem there. Have you paid no attention to the assassinations, the riots, the governmental paralysis they have caused? Who operates terrorist training camps in the Bekaa Valley? Not Israel, that’s for sure. Did you not see the millions of protesters against Syrian domination of Lebanon? Sometimes the obvious answer is really the right answer… **

 

[Ed_Rand]

The majority of palestinians are in Jordan. blah, blah, blah, palestinians don’t exist. blah blah, but wait, yes the do and their all in jordan, blah blah,

Nearly everything you’ve said here is bogus, but please, prove just this one point, just this one.

 

[Sepharad]

Now that is an excellent post, sir. Thank you so much. I was beginning to lose hope in this whole forum.

You are welcome, except that I am a ma’am, not a sir.

BTW forgot to mention: if you carefully study the history of the Jewish people since zionism took hold, you will find that most antisemitism developed because of zionist activities and actions.

It is true that Arab nations expelled their Jews…but this was after zionism began its militaristic actions in the Middle East. Before that time, Jews and Arabs usually lived in peace in Muslim nations.

Antisemitism that has developed in Europe over the last 5 years or so has been almost exclusively related to people assuming that anything going on in the Middle East, done by zionists, is approved by all Jews everywhere, when it is not.

zionism has actually been the leading cause of antisemitism in the world since the establishment of the zionist state.

And Theodor Herzl, founding father of zionism (a selfhating, assimilated antireligious Jew, some of whose children converted to Christianity or went insane, and in one case, both) often said that antisemitism is a good thing, because it can be manipulated to scare Jews into fleeing to the zionist homeland. Modern zionist governmental leaders often utilize Herzl’s philosophy when their numbers begin to run low, exploiting real or imagined antisemitism in Europe to scare Jews there into making aliyah to the zionist state.

At one point, the chief rabbi of France confronted the zionist government over this, accusing them of artificially stoking the issue to increase their immigration numbers.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Nearly everything you’ve said here is bogus, but please, prove just this one point, just this one.

New York Times, June 12, 2008:

“It (Jordan) is part of biblical Palestine, and more than 60 percent of its inhabitants are Palestinian by every definition.”

The article goes on to say that the first proponent of a “Palestinian entity” was the 1959 ruler of Iraq, who proposed it as a slap to Jordan, as the proposed “Palestinian entity” included Jordan, which not only contained other tribal groups, but was ruled by the Hashemite kings who are not of “Palestinian” tribal affiliation. This concept was further pressed by Nasser.

Of course, that piece was citing an earlier source. Since many Iraqis, Syrians and Lebanese have immigrated to Jordan in very recent times, it may no longer be true. Current sources vary from a low of 40% to that same 60%. West Bank residents may immigrate fairly freely into Jordan.

The 2007 research report of the American-Israeli Research Group showed the Arab population (of all sorts) in Gaza and the West Bank at about 1.4 million. Even at 40%, the “Palestinian” population of Jordan (over five million total) is greater. At 60%, it is about double the “Palestinian” population in the West Bank and Gaza.

The combined populations of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are 67% Jewish.

It must be admitted that precise population figures in both the West Bank and Gaza are extremely difficult to obtain, due to the internal chaos in both places and the political sensitiviey of such information.

“Palestinians” dominate the middle classes in Jordan. I will admit that my primary source of information comes from middle class “Palestinian” Jordanians whom I know personally. Some of their “tribe” also live in the West Bank, including the only freely elected mayor of any West Bank town. Some live in Egypt. The West Bank members are also of the middle class, and my friends visit there, as well in Jordan, frequently. As I mentioned before, Arab “tribes” are not precisely like “castes” in India, but there are similarities. The mayor I mentioned was of a tribe that has been “commercial” for centuries. “Commercial” people in the Middle East get around a great deal, as the business “caste” is nowhere near as large there as it is in a comparable population in the West.

I believe people like them. Until I got to know those people, I thought like you do. I believed the “Palestinians” were a discrete people situated in the West Bank. Real “Palestinians” who are not under the dominaion of the Hamas and Fatah gangs, disabuse one of that illusion pretty quickly. Not only did they talk about it persuasively, they acquainted me with reading material that is neither Islamist nor Zionist propaganda. Business people in the Middle East have to look at things realistically. It’s too easy to get killed over there if you harbor illusions. And the real allegiance is absolutely, positively to the tribe. The tribe, along with its tribal alliances, is also your most reliable protection.

 

[morning_star777]

Judaism teaches to respect and care for the stranger (non-Jew), not persecute him in any way.

i just know that jews believe OT.except it i don’t know anything about judaism.but i agree with you.history teach me that jewish people were always the real peace loving people&i strongly believe it.bless you