Jews and Palestinians

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Ed, what he is saying is not bogus. Jordanians being mainly Palestinians is something we all know in here…
 
inJESUS, what is the root cause of this Palestinian problem?
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It is the refusal of the so-called Palestinians to accept Israel as a state, abandon terror, and get about the business of building a nation. That’s it in a nut shell.

Some facts to consider. There were as many (maybe slightly more) Jews dislocated from Arab countries as their were Arabs from what is now Israel due to the first Arab Israeli War (AIW).

There never was an independent nation called Israel.

Many of those Arabs displaced by the AIW were themselves imigrants to the Holy Land…just as many of the Jews were. In fact, the hero of the PLO, Yassir Arafat was Egyptian…an Arab born in Egypt.

Most of the land occupied by Jews prior to the AIW was bought and paid for.

Arabs declared war on Israel in May 1948, the Israelis defended themselves.

The Arabs rejected the original partition plan which was highly favorable to them.

The reason the 1967 war occured was, in part, due to terrorist incursions into Israel from Gaza and the West Bank…why would that change if Israel gave it all back?

“Palestinian” Arabs living in Israel and the West Bank live better there than they do in the countries of their Arab “brothers.”

Why was there no clamor by the Arabs to create a Palestinian State when Egypt and Jordan controled Gaza and the West Bank?

Why wasn’t a nation formed when Gaza held these territories?
 
Ed_Rand said:
He said most Palestinians are Jordanians. Check post 2.
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Both are true. Most “Palestinians” are Jordanian; most Jordanians are “Palestinian”. Check Post 39. Doubtless others would argue the numbers. Again, though, one must recognize that many “Palestinians” don’t live in Jordan or in Gaza and the West Bank. They’re all over the Middle East. Many are, indeed, virtual prisoners in those horrible “camps” the Arab states maintain. But many compose the technical and business “elites” of Middle Eastern states. “Palestinians” are, in Middle Eastern terms, better educated than nearly any others, thanks, largely, to educational policies of the Jordanian government.

It would be the great good fortune of the “Palestinians” if a true peace could be established with Israel, and economic cooperation could be established. Jordan already does business with Israel, to the mutual benefit of both. Given the talents, location and educational levels of both, other Middle Eastern states would not welcome such an outcome, as an “Israel/West Bank/Gaza/Jordan” cooperative organization would totally dominate business in the Middle East. But for Iranian/Syrian disruption in Lebanon, that country, too, would share in the prosperity. The Eastern Mediterranean area is potentially the “economic heart” of the Middle East. But again, other Middle Eastern states prefer that it exist in chaos and will do everything in their power to keep it that way.

A great irony is that Gaza came close to being the “Las Vegas” of the Middle East. The investors were already in place for super-luxury casinos, hotels and other establishments. Gaza does have extensive beaches. It could have been the “spa” of Middle Eastern wealthy, who like to have someplace to go to drink, gamble and chase women without their countrymen seeing them do it. (“what happens here stays here”).
Lebanon once provided the same, until Syria created violent chaos there. Fatah was originally to provide security; giving the thugs of its military arm an honest way of making a living for the first time in their lives. Even Israel favored it, at least tacitly. However, Arafat even betrayed his own allies and financial backers by stealing a lot of the investment funds (some of it even came from the U.S. government) and restarting chaos there to cover his theft; a move that was pivotal in Fatah’s internal division and decline. Hamas followed on with Syrian and Iranian backing, and the whole thing was abandoned.

Some people like to blame the miseries of “Palestine” on Israel. Palestinians who know the score know it is actually the work of other Middle Eastern Arab (and now Iranian) influences. Those forces know full well that if there was peace and economic cooperation in the Eastern Mediterranean, (including Israel) their own countries would be business backwaters.
 
Ed_Rand said:
I never claimed that the modern state of Israel is akin to the one in the Bible. But believe me, many many many Israeli’s do. Actually, I’d say it’s an abomination.
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really? Is the United States an abomination? Or Canada? Or Iraq?
 
Sepharad said:
You need to know that not all Jews are zionists; in fact, most zionists I have met are fundamentalist Christians, not Jews.

Judaism teaches to respect and care for the stranger (non-Jew), not persecute him in any way.

zionism is a non-Jewish heresy, according to the most religious of the Orthodox…see jewsagainstzionism.com This is one of many websites that teach what Judaism actually says about Jews occupying the Holy Land before the Messiah comes.

Please do not confuse Judaism and zionism, they are NOT the same thing.

Many Orthodox Jews view zionism as the modern-day golden calf, for it enables non-religious Jews to still feel as if they are acting as committed Jews, as long as they speak out for the zionist entity, even if they are not Torah observant.
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Further proof that even the orthodox can get things horribly wrong. For a group that compares Israel with a golden calf, they are more than willing to get elected to the knesset for the purpose of selling their votes. And to take such a position based on a line from the Song of Songs, and to ignore the rest of the Talmudic tractate that conditions such prohibition on non-jewish nations not unduly punishing the Jews, is a shining example of the strong role plurality plays in Judaism.
 
Valke2 said:
really? Is the United States an abomination? Or Canada? Or Iraq?
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yes. in many ways. the fact that the US claimed that its destruction of Native American ways of life was somehow God’s plan was abominable. the fact that George Bush somehow thinks God told him to invade Iraq is abominable. the fact that many Christians think the reconstituted state of Israel is Divine Providence is abominable.

Who the heck wants to live in Canada!!! jk. jk.😃
 
Valke2 said:
Further proof that even the orthodox can get things horribly wrong. For a group that compares Israel with a golden calf, they are more than willing to get elected to the knesset for the purpose of selling their votes. And to take such a position based on a line from the Song of Songs, and to ignore the rest of the Talmudic tractate that conditions such prohibition on non-jewish nations not unduly punishing the Jews, is a shining example of the strong role plurality plays in Judaism.
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I agree there are some amongst the Orthodox who, while being non-zionist, take money from the state. I have called such people hypocrites on this forum previously.

But not all do that, in fact the ones I regularly send tzedakah to do not take any money from the state, which is why they are so poor.
 
Ed_Rand said:
yes. in many ways. the fact that the US claimed that its destruction of Native American ways of life was somehow God’s plan was abominable. the fact that George Bush somehow thinks God told him to invade Iraq is abominable. the fact that many Christians think the reconstituted state of Israel is Divine Providence is abominable.

Who the heck wants to live in Canada!!! jk. jk.😃
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George Bush phobia is not the topic of this thread.

I am not one who thinks the state of Israel somehow represents the operation of Providence except insofar as all things represent the operation of Providence.

Should the Arab Palestinians be condemned for destroying the Greek way of life that preceded them? Perhaps it could have been justly done then, but hardly now. Nor is any person alive today in any way to blame for destruction of the Indian way of life, any more than any Comanche alive today is to blame for destroying the Apache way of life on the Southern Plains.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Nor is any person alive today in any way to blame for destruction of the Indian way of life, any more than any Comanche alive today is to blame for destroying the Apache way of life on the Southern Plains.
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Exactly!!! But can we say the same of the settlers who are still building settlements on what Palestinians hope to be their future state? Or the Israeli government which is encouraging these settlers and itself building this wall on what will hopefully be Palestinian land?
Perhaps it could have been justly done then, but hardly now.
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Exactly, my friend, exactly. Now we’re getting somewhere.
 
Ed_Rand said:
Exactly!!! But can we say the same of the settlers who are still building settlements on what Palestinians hope to be their future state? Or the Israeli government which is encouraging these settlers and itself building this wall on what will hopefully be Palestinian land?

Exactly, my friend, exactly. Now we’re getting somewhere.
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But can we say the same of the Americans who are still building cities and towns in the Southwest on what those who dream of Aztlan hope to be their future state?

If Isreal and the West Bank are Palestine, Jews are the majority population. Arabs live in Israel in peace. Why are Jews who live in the West Bank not entitled to live in peace? The Jews could kill or expel all of the Arabs from the West Bank, but don’t. It is not the Jews who have dreams of genocide. It is the Arabs in the pay of foreign Islamists who wish to kill or expel the Jews. The same thing is going on in Lebanon, where the Christians are being forced out of the country by the paid agents of foreigners. The difference is that the Israelis are stronger than the Christians in Lebanon.

If, indeed, the gangs that rule the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, were desirous or capable of forming a civilized government in which others could live in peace and security, and which would live in peace with its neighbors, I would be the first to support the effort, and expect Israel would as well. But they are manifestly unable and unwilling to do it.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Palestine is a real place. Do any of you have Bibles with maps of the region circa the time of Jesus? They are all labeled “Palestine.”

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So what? 🤷

Not ONE NT book calls the land “Palestine”. For example, in Matthew 2:19-22, the “Angel of the Lord” calls the land “Israel”. In verse 22 Matthew calls the region(what we are told is the West Bank) "Judea.

Interesting, Heaven refers to the land as Israel.

I’ll side with Heaven on what the real name of the land is.
 
Sepharad said:
You need to know that not all Jews are zionists; in fact, most zionists I have met are fundamentalist Christians, not Jews.

Judaism teaches to respect and care for the stranger (non-Jew), not persecute him in any way.

zionism is a non-Jewish heresy, according to the most religious of the Orthodox…see jewsagainstzionism.com This is one of many websites that teach what Judaism actually says about Jews occupying the Holy Land before the Messiah comes.

Please do not confuse Judaism and zionism, they are NOT the same thing.

Many Orthodox Jews view zionism as the modern-day golden calf, for it enables non-religious Jews to still feel as if they are acting as committed Jews, as long as they speak out for the zionist entity, even if they are not Torah observant.
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Ill contend this.

What would happen, lets say on a Sabbath in Jerusalem, if a stranger in a car goes down a street in a orthodox part of town.

Let me say I know a friend who was in a car that was stoned because they drove down a orthodox neighborhood street on the Sabbath.

Really friendly. I don’t think a stranger will get that in secular, Messianic, OR Palestinian neighborhoods on the Sabbath.

Anyways, Ezekiel 36-37 shows the errors of how the world, Judaism, and replacement theologies expect how Israel will come in the land all holy and triumphant.

The God of Israel in Ezekiel 36 and 37 tells how the land will flourish again when he allows his people to come back in the land again. Both have happened as God foretold it would. Mark Twain traveled the land and wrote how terrible condition it was in. But yet today, the land has recovered and within our lifetime Israel is a modern 21st century nation.

And most of all, God is bringing these people back into the land not for the peoples sake, but for his Holy Namesake.
 
Ed_Rand said:
I never claimed that the modern state of Israel is akin to the one in the Bible. But believe me, many many many Israeli’s do. Actually, I’d say it’s an abomination.
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It’s sad you think the largest mission field to our Lord Jesus’ earthly brethern is “an abomination.”
 
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