Jews and the Church

[cestusdei]

In the OT Jew and Israelite were pretty much the same. My intent was to expose anti-semitism, but the main one concerned revealed himself a little to blatently. To say Israel is not a Jewish state is a bit disingenous. It certainly has a Jewish character although there are Christian and Muslim citizens. It may not be perfect, but as long as Israel exists you are unlikely to have another shoah. For a Jew to be anti-Israel is quite strange. But like they say in Israel, “put 2 Jews together and you get 3 opinions”. I had no trouble in Israel at all and the Jews treated me kindly and respectfully.

Cestusdei means “God’s brassknuckles” in Latin. Gladiators wore cestus ie. spiked gloves. It seemed pretty descriptive of my admittedly gladitorial personality.

 

[Ghosty]

To the best of my knowledge, Rome avers that the first covenant, the “Old” or Jewish Covenant, is still a valid avenue to salvation.

The Jewish Covenant was never an avenue to salvation. The only salvific Covenant is through Christ and that has always been the teaching of the Church. This is why Christ went to the place of the dead to bring them to Heaven; they were not saved by their Covenant with God.

This doesn’t invalidate the Jewish Covenant by any means, it’s simply a recognition that there is nothing in it which involves Salvation, other than the prefiguring of the Messiah.

To say Israel is not a Jewish state is a bit disingenous. It certainly has a Jewish character although there are Christian and Muslim citizens.

That’s not quite what I meant. A Jewish State is one that is established by God, as in the old Kingdom of Israel. The modern state of Israel is merely one created by men and named after the original. The original is a Covenant in itself, the current one is an attempt to replicate a Covenant with God through the hands of man. Many sages will tell you that the true Jewish State will come with the Messiah, indeed that’s part of the Messiah’s role in Jewish belief. As a Catholic I believe that the Messiah’s fulfillment of the Covenant is already present in the world as the Church, and therefore any state claiming to be Israel is an usurpation of God’s promise.

This is a religious view, not a political one, and it is tied intricately with the promise of the Messiah in both the Church and Orthodox Judaism. At most it belongs in Non-Catholic Religions forum along with the rest of the thread, but definately not the News forums. Here is a link by the group Neturei Karta about why they oppose Israel:

nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/index.cfm

You’ll see that the issue at hand is very much a religious one. They also have links and information about the original stance of the majority of Orthodox Jews on the subject of Zionism and the State of Israel. The Shoah silenced many, and changed the minds of many more, but the stance remains one of faith and not politics.

It may not be perfect, but as long as Israel exists you are unlikely to have another shoah.

On the contrary, a policy of rounding up Jews into a confined border surrounded by millions of hostile people is the exact recipe for the Shoah.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I’ve been reading this thread with great interest. I had intended to do just that as it seems to be an intra-Catholic discussion in which I wouldn’t have anything relevant to say. However, Ghosty, you referred to the Neturei Karta (an Aramaic phrase meaning "Guardians of the City; Karta being the Aramaic equivalent of the Punic Cart, as in Carthage). The Neturei Karta is a t-i-n-y group whose extremist views place it outside the mainstream of ultra-orthodoxy, to say nothing of modern orthodoxy (scroll to the bottom of jewishmediaresources.com/article/439). Indeed, the extremism & viciousness of their rhetoric and their ability to generate publicity for themselves are in inverse proportion to their size, influence and relative importance within the ultra-orthodox community.

I’ll borrow the following from another thread:

The vast majority of modern orthodox Jews (like myself) do support the State of Israel. Modern orthodoxy is very pro-Zionist & very supportive of the State of Israel & has always been so. It is our ultra-orthodox ([haredi in Hebrew) brethren who span the spectrum of pro-Zionist, to non-Zionist, to downright anti-Zionist (even militantly so). But the ultra-orthodox world, particularly here in Israel, has , in recent years seen a shift from anti-Zionism more towards non-Zionism (although there certainly are plenty of militantly anti-Israel ultra-orthodox Jews). This has been partly due to events such as tinyurl.com/65txd which hit the ultra-orthodox community here very hard. A perfect illustration of this shift was the fact that in May 2003, a prominent ultra-orthodox Jew (Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the founder of the ZAKA organization, the guys who pick up body parts after bombings & car accidents; they sent a delegation to Thailand after the trunami) was invited to light one of the torches kicking off Israel’s independence Day celebrations; the symbolism of this jewishinternetassociation.or…tz_01jul03.html was not to be missed. Historically, ultra-orthodox opposition to the State was never monolithic (although it is the extremists who, being extremists, generate/d the most publicity for themselves & their views, with the media, being what it is, lapping it up); I cite Rabbi Avraham Karelitz’s modus vivendi with Ben-Gurion (tinyurl.com/4hd4f) & the fact that one ultra-orthodox party or other has almost always been in whatever coalition government happens to be ruling Israel at the moment.

Neturei Karta, by continuing to adhere to its extremist views even as Palestinian terrorism has hit hard at the ultra-orthodox community, has become further isolated & marginalized within the ultra-orthodox community. They were a marginal group to begin with & they have become even more marginalized in recent years, all their pathological shrieking that they embody the essence of normative orthodoxy notwithstanding. They are legends in their own minds (but in nobody else’s). Opponents of Israel have seized on them and fawn all over them because NK’s views neatly dovetail with their own.

(I have referred to the Israeli-Palestinia conflict to the minimum that I felt necessary & relevant. One of my very few cyberrules is that I will not discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict online.)

Be well!

ssv *

 

[Shoshana]

What the church thinks of the Jews has already been stated beautifully within Catholic teaching. I concur. If I had to do my life again, I would’ve studied in Israel and remained there as much as I love it, having been there twice. Praise God!:dancing:

The only confusion in my mind has to do with the early Church Fathers and their statements on the Jewish people at the time and how this thinking may have been ingrained somewhat. Even Fr.Kolbe was in that very same lot before he gave up his life for a Jew…

Maybe someone can clarify this for me???

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Ghosty]

SSV: Yes, I’m very well aware of Neturei Karta’s extremist ranking, but their views are indeed typical of the Orthodox Jewish attitude prior to the Shoah, which is what I was refering to. They are a very tiny minority now, but prior to the Shoah it was difficult to find much Orthodox support of Zionism, and the religious reasons were the most heavily cited. The attitudes have changed for the majority, but the religious arguments that were used previously by the Orthodox, and currently by Neturei Karta, are very important to remember and still hold water today, IMO.

One of key elements for me is that God is supposed to shepard the Jews back to Israel, not the Jews to take it back themselves (Isaiah 43). Zionism is literally an usurpation of the promise of the Messiah, near as I can read it. As Rambam taught, the Messiah is a person, not a historical trend, and I believe that attempts to reclaim the land of Israel prior to God revealing the time to do so is very troublesome.

We know that when God has spoken to the people of Israel, it has been knowable and “visable”. What we have in Zionism is an originally agnostic nationalist movement with little to no religious attachment claiming that a state for Jews (the land of Israel was not the only option) was the only means for prosperity and survival. There was no message from God, no indication that the time had come to be gathered from the west, east, north and south, and that’s what worries me. Though I’m Catholic, and therefore have different views on when this event occured, and how, from a Jewish perspective I would be extremely wary of the state of Israel for the very reason that it came before any indication from God that it was time for such a movement. We know that God does not generally look favorable on those who presume to act in God’s stead. To be on the safe side, even as a Catholic who believes that the Messiah has already come, I stay well away from supporting Israel.

Of course this has nothing to do with my support of Jews, Judaism, or even a state for Jews in general (though I think Brooklyn would be a better locale, not to mention less presumptuous ). I just find the State of Israel as it stands today to be very troublesome, and I’ve yet to hear a sound religious argument that addresses all of my concerns. If you know of any, I’d be more than happy to look at them

 

[cestusdei]

Ghosty,
Considering they have probably the best army in the world and around 200 nuclear weapons I think ultimately they are safe there.

 

[Fitz]

Our current Pope has had more communication with Israel and the Jewish people than those that went before him. Here is the link and and excerpt from the Pope:

news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/26/newsid_4168000/4168803.stm

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/99...s/40715000/jpg/_40715487_popejerusalem238.jpg Pope John Paul II meeting religious leaders in Jerusalem

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“I assure the Jewish people the Catholic Church … is deeply saddened by the hatred, acts of persecution and displays of anti-Semitism directed against the Jews by Christians at any time and in any place,” the Pope said. The pontiff added that there were “no words strong enough to deplore the terrible tragedy” of the Holocaust.

 

[Shoshana]

Ghosty:

SSV: Yes, I’m very well aware of Neturei Karta’s extremist ranking, but their views are indeed typical of the Orthodox Jewish attitude prior to the Shoah, which is what I was refering to. They are a very tiny minority now, but prior to the Shoah it was difficult to find much Orthodox support of Zionism, and the religious reasons were the most heavily cited. The attitudes have changed for the majority, but the religious arguments that were used previously by the Orthodox, and currently by Neturei Karta, are very important to remember and still hold water today, IMO.

One of key elements for me is that God is supposed to shepard the Jews back to Israel, not the Jews to take it back themselves (Isaiah 43). Zionism is literally an usurpation of the promise of the Messiah, near as I can read it. As Rambam taught, the Messiah is a person, not a historical trend, and I believe that attempts to reclaim the land of Israel prior to God revealing the time to do so is very troublesome.

We know that when God has spoken to the people of Israel, it has been knowable and “visable”. What we have in Zionism is an originally agnostic nationalist movement with little to no religious attachment claiming that a state for Jews (the land of Israel was not the only option) was the only means for prosperity and survival. There was no message from God, no indication that the time had come to be gathered from the west, east, north and south, and that’s what worries me. Though I’m Catholic, and therefore have different views on when this event occured, and how, from a Jewish perspective I would be extremely wary of the state of Israel for the very reason that it came before any indication from God that it was time for such a movement. We know that God does not generally look favorable on those who presume to act in God’s stead. To be on the safe side, even as a Catholic who believes that the Messiah has already come, I stay well away from supporting Israel.

Of course this has nothing to do with my support of Jews, Judaism, or even a state for Jews in general (though I think Brooklyn would be a better locale, not to mention less presumptuous ). I just find the State of Israel as it stands today to be very troublesome, and I’ve yet to hear a sound religious argument that addresses all of my concerns. If you know of any, I’d be more than happy to look at them

You post confirms my own feelings here…This is a statement I made on another thread which I think should be thought of seriously…

'Zionism is not necessarily unadulterated Judaism.

Being anti-zionist does not necessarily equate anti-semitism, although they may overlap…

Judaism according to the ultra-Orthodox Jew cannot embrace Zionism per se.

Although I believe you can explain it better than I.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Ghosty, you posted:

The attitudes have changed for the majority, but the religious arguments that were used previously by the Orthodox, and currently by Neturei Karta, are very important to remember and still hold water today…

With all due respect (and I respect you alot both for your courtesy & your knowledge!), the “religious arguments” you refer to hold no water whatsoever.

I cite

Jews who criticize or oppose Zionism are usually Orthodox and maintain that Israel can only be regained miraculously. They view the present state as a blasphemous human attempt to usurp G-d’s role, and they work to dismantle Israel. However, unlike many gentile anti-Zionists, they firmly believe in the Jewish right to Israel, but only at that future time of redemption. The best known of the religious anti-Zionists are the Neturei Karta.

Two common religious grounds are typically given for anti-Zionism One is that today’s Zionism is a secular Zionism, packed with non-Jewish influences, and lacking key features like Moshiach [the Messiah] and the rebuilt Temple. Adherents to this position are more on the non-Zionist rather than anti-Zionist side. The other reason is that the Talmud (Meseches Kesuvos, 111a), as part of a discussion of certain Torah verses mentioning oaths, states that when Israel went into the second exile, there were three vows between Heaven and Earth:

1. Israel would not “go up like a wall” [conquer Eretz Yisrael by massive force].
2. G-d made Israel swear that they would not rebel against the nations of the world [would obey the governments in the exile].
3. G-d made the non-Jews swear not to oppress Israel “too much” [translation of phrase *yoter midai

].

Groups accepting these positions are more on the anti-Zionist side.

The religious counter-reply to the above is that secular Zionism is a preliminary stage of religious Zionism, and that the vows no longer apply since the gentiles violated their part (by such actions as the Roman persecutions, the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazi Holocaust). The Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the United Nations partition vote of 1947 are also regarded as having given permission to the Jews to reestablish the state by the non-Jewish rulers of the area. Once this permission was granted it could not be revoked. It should also be noted that the oaths cited above are only mentioned as a side point in one place in a discussion in the Gemara, and as the viewpoint of an individual. Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.

Some Religious Zionist Jews see the formation of the secular state as accelerating the process of redemption, with themselves playing a major role in doing G-d’s will by serving the state, whose creation is often seen as miraculous.

So-called “non-Zionist” Jews are pleased that Israel exists from a practical standpoint-as a haven for oppressed Jews and as a land imbued with holiness well-suited for Torah study. But they don’t generally assign religious significance to the formation of the modern state, and often decry aspects of its secular culture.

Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Anti-Zionism.html (cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Part of the intense animus that Neturei Karta and other groups (such as the Satmar hassidic movement, ferinstance) have against Zionism & the State of Israel is psychological mechanism by which they seek to project onto Zionism & the State of Israel their own feelings of terrible guilt that so many ultra-orthodox Jews perished in the gas chambers because they were told by their rabbinical leaders in the interwar period not to go to the “profane” Zionist state-in-the-making in British Mandatory Palestine. And Neturei Karta then has the unmitigated gall (i.e. chutzpah) to accuse the Zionists of complicity in provoking the Holocaust??!! Shame on them!!

A seminal figure in shaping religious attitudes to the Zionist project and the subsequent State of Israel was Rabbi Avraham Kook (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/kook.htm). The foregoing link is a short biographical sketch. I’d like to quote one excerpt:

Above all, Rav Kook pulsated with a sense of the Divine. And, he sought to reach those who had strayed. He once quoted the rabbinic dictum that one should embrace with the right hand and rebuff with the left and commented that he was fully capable of rejecting, but since there were enough rejecters, he was fulfilling the role of embracer.

(What a pity that all Netorei Karta can do is shriek their rejectionism as fanatically as possible.) Rabbi Yehuda Amital (a founder of the moderate religious Zionist Meimad movement; see meimad.org.il/) wrote the following essay (entitled The Religious Significance of the State of Israel) in which he discusses many of Rabbi Kook’s views:vbm-torah.org/yyerush/atz59.htm.

Fitz, the gentleman to the Pope’s left in the photograph is former Sephardi Chief Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron. The gentleman at the Pope’s extreme right (only the side of his face is seen) is former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau (a native of Poland & a survivor of Buchenwald; he and the Pope spoke in their native Polish). That photo is from the Pope’s March 2000 visit to Israel (tinyurl.com/4co5r).

Be well!

ssv

 

[Shoshana]

After what ssv has posted, I must retract my statements. I must’ve misunderstood what my Jewish friends have told me in the past…sorry!

 

[Ghosty]

SSV: With all due fairness, I don’t see how those counter-arguments, which I’ve heard before, really apply. With the understanding that the “three oaths” don’t necessarily represent a binding agreement, it should be pointed out that the oaths were taken between man and God, not between groups of men. Yes, the Gentiles violated the terms of their oath, but that has no place in the oaths the Jews took with God; the oaths the Jews made were not contingent upon the Gentile’s oath, but rather in relation to Jewish sins. The Jewish sins, and the Jewish oaths, are not invalidated by the faithlessness of Gentiles, as the removal of Israel in the first place had nothing to do with the Gentiles.

It’s also pointed out in your quotations, but not dealt with, that the State of Israel lacks the miraculous signs that indicate it is gift from God. I have not delved into the articles and websites you posted yet, and hopefully they will adequately address the issue.

Cestusdei wrote:

Considering they have probably the best army in the world and around 200 nuclear weapons I think ultimately they are safe there.

Such things did little to protect the U.S. from the attacks on September 11, and have done little to protect Israel from the all too frequent barrage of suicide bombings. Replace those suicide vests with portable nuclear or biological weapon, and you have millions of dead Jews. The fact is that, for extremists of all stripes, Israel has a very large bullseye painted on it, and as has been proven time and time again, military might is ineffective against determined terrorist activity. It’s a fear that I have for the Jewish people, and people in general, that such an attack would be carried out, but Israel is definately target #1.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Ghosty, I’ll repost one part of what I posted earlier:

It should also be noted that the oaths cited above are only mentioned as a side point in one place in a discussion in the Gemara, and as the viewpoint of an individual. Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.

I would add that the context in which this discussion takes place is homiletic, not legal. What the Netorei Karta have done is to take something waaay out of context and misrepresent it (purport that the homiletic view of one man is normative Jewish doctrine binding on all) in order to justify their own extremist, minority views. This is what doesn’t wash. “Many people feel that they do not apply in any case.” Just about the only people who think that they do apply are groups like the Netorei Karta, the Satmar hassidim, etc., who are a very small minority.

You posted:

It’s also pointed out in your quotations, but not dealt with, that the State of Israel lacks the miraculous signs that indicate it is gift from God.

It is the anti-Zionists like the NK who claim these. As for we religious Zionists…

Some Religious Zionist Jews see the formation of the secular state as accelerating the process of redemption, with themselves playing a major role in doing G-d’s will by serving the state, whose creation is often seen as miraculous.

The ingathering of our exiles, the rise of Israel, its survival despite attempts by far more numerous enemies to annihilate us, etc. is not miraculous? Miracles don’t only consist of manna raining down from Heaven. Look at the Book of Esther. The word Esther is a cognate of the s-t-r root, which means “concealed/hidden.” Like God’s Name (which is hidden, in more than one place, in the Book of Esther), the miracles of the Book of Esther are hidden. One of my rabbis here in Israel compared this to the fact that God parted the Sea of Reeds by a strong wind when He could just have easily snapped His fingers (so to speak). The parting of the Sea teaches us to see the natural in the miraculous; the Book of Esther teaches us to see the miraculous in the natural. The miracles that God did for us in 1948, 1967 and 1973 are no less cogent & no less valid because, like the miracles in the Book of Esther, they are hidden.

You posted:

The fact is that, for extremists of all stripes, Israel has a very large bullseye painted on it, and as has been proven time and time again, military might is ineffective against determined terrorist activity. It’s a fear that I have for the Jewish people, and people in general, that such an attack would be carried out, but Israel is definately target #1.

No, Jews, period, are target #1. Virulent, even murderous, anti-Semitism was alive and kicking long before the State of Israel was even an idea, much less a reality.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

The ingathering of our exiles, the rise of Israel, its survival despite attempts by far more numerous enemies to annihilate us, etc. is not miraculous?

This is where reality tends to break from legend, however. An ingathering of exiles is hardly miraculous in and of itself, espescially when you consider that most exiles from Europe went to places other than Israel, such as the U.S. In other cases, such as that of the Iraqi Jews, they were exiled and had no other option open to them. There was nothing out of the ordinary about the choice of Israel for such people, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about the land being promised to Jews by the British. On the contrary, the events are rather mundane and fitting of the times, policies, and prejudices. In fact, one might argue that the real miracle would have been the State of Israel being formed prior to the Holocaust; a state being formed in response to a genocide is not even remotely unusual, it’s infact the typical response. The same happened with my Armenian relatives after the purge of our people.

As for survival against superior numbers, that has been shown to be a distortion in recent years. Nothing really needs to be said about the 1967 war, as the Israeli Army hit its opponents while they were unprepared, destroying their airforce on the ground. Victory was a foregone conclusion in such a preemptive strike, nothing miraculous. The 1948 war bears a bit more attention simply because it’s not always easy to what is going on based on sheer population size. There is evidence (and counter-evidence), however, that the militaries that the Israelis faced in that war were actually smaller than the Israeli military forces. While the populations of the surrounding nations far surpasses Israel’s, they had almost no forces to field during that time. I hesitate to list any exact numbers until I can locate my books on the subject, but most recent historians, including Israeli ones, have recorded this since the opening of the Israeli political and military files. I promise that I will post them as soon as I find the exact figures and their sources.

All that being said, I agree that miracles are not always huge events where the skies open up and angels blow their trumpets. As a Catholic I’m obliged to believe in hidden, and even tiny, miracles. I find it hard to accept that just anything that happens can be termed a miracle, however. It becomes easy to use any event that supports our view as “a miracle” even when the odds were far in its favor given the circumstances. What amazes me about the creation of Israel is how unmiraculous it seems. It could have happened before the Shoah, but didn’t, and it could have included a majority of the world’s Jews, but didn’t. It could have had religious backing from the beginning, but didn’t. Honestly, given the state of Arab armies during the 1948 war, it would have been a miracle if they had wiped Israel off the map (which I do believe many of them intended to do). Again, I’ll have to get my sources out for all of this to continue, and I want to continue reading the websites you posted.

Thank you for having this conversation so civilly, and for staying on the religious track. I find that it too often degrades into shouting matches and heated political arguments. It’s refreshing to discuss things this way. Of course, if it does become an issue for you, just say so and we can drop it, or carry it on in private so as not to further disrupt this thread

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi Ghosty!

It’s 21:36 on a cold, wet & very windy Saturday night here. Everyone’s asleep except me & Meirav (the Siberian hamster).

So…

Thank you for having this conversation so civilly, and for staying on the religious track. I find that it too often degrades into shouting matches and heated political arguments.

You’re welcome! Our Sages say that, “Good manners preceeded the Torah,” i.e. we shouldn’t need the Torah to tell us to behave civilly. I hate flame wars (which is one reason why I refuse to discuss the Israeli-Arab conflict online & will refer to it as minimally as possible/necessary).

It’s refreshing to discuss things this way.

Indeed!

Of course, if it does become an issue for you, just say so and we can drop it, or carry it on in private so as not to further disrupt this thread

Well, as long as we don’t get thwacked by one of the Moderators, I see no reason why we can’t carry on here.

An ingathering of exiles is hardly miraculous in and of itself…On the contrary, the events are rather mundane and fitting of the times, policies, and prejudices.

Well, I would say that the fulfillment of prophecy (i.e. the ingathering of the exiles) is inherently miraculous. I’ll slightly rephrase & repost what I said in my previous post: The parting of the Sea teaches us to see the mundane in the miraculous; the Book of Esther teaches us to see the miraculous in the mundane. The miracles that God did for us in 1948, 1967 and 1973 are no less cogent & no less valid because, like the miracles in the Book of Esther, they are hidden in the mundane.

a state being formed in response to a genocide is not even remotely unusual, it’s infact the typical response. The same happened with my Armenian relatives after the purge of our people.

But Lenin & Ataturk saw to it that the little Armenian state formed in the aftermath of the WWI genocide didn’t survive.

Nothing really needs to be said about the 1967 war, as the Israeli Army hit its opponents while they were unprepared, destroying their airforce on the ground. Victory was a foregone conclusion in such a preemptive strike, nothing miraculous.

That we caught Nasser completely by surprise when we wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground on the first day of hostilities, that our pre-emptive strike humbled a man who was openly boasting that he would annihilate us, cannot be seen as miraculous? (Again, I refer to inherently miraculous nature of the fulfillment of prophecy: “And five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand; and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword…The Lord will cause your enemies that rise up against you to be smitten before you; they shall come out against you one way, and shall flee before you seven ways.”)

I don’t know. I read Deuteronomy 8 and I am very hesitant about attributing such blessing & such salvation to, “'My power and the might of my hand.” The prayer that modern orthodox synagogues the world over say for the IDF (ou.org/yerushalayim/prayers2.htm) quotes Deuteronomy 20:4

…for it is the Lord your God who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

I cite the “The Miracle of Jewish histiry” by Rabbi Ken Spiro:

**SUPERNATURAL **

When we look back at the history of the Jewish people which we have just examined at lightning speed in this series, we have to keep one key thing in mind:

The very survival of the Jewish people through recorded time is nothing short of miraculous. The very fact that Jews exist as a nation today stands in testimony to the existence of God who acts in history. By any historical measure, the Jewish people should have disappeared long ago.

The person who summed this up best was David Ben Gurion, the first Prime Minister of the State of Israel. He said: “A Jew who does not believe in miracles is not a realist.”

Why did he say that? Because miracles are the only possible explanation for the existence of the Jewish people.

Over 300 years ago King Louis XIV of France asked Blaise Pascal, the great French philosopher, to give him proof of the supernatural. Pascal answered: “Why, the Jews, your Majesty – the Jews.”

An astonishing answer. The best proof of the supernatural that Pascal could think of was: “The Jews.”

We don’t have to speculate what Pascal meant when he gave this answer, because he took the trouble to spell it out. (See Pensees, para. 620, p. 285.) Pascal said that the fact that the Jewish people survived until the 17th century – to the time period when he was living – was nothing short of a supernatural phenomenon.

There simply was no logical explanation for it.

As we have seen from this series, Jewish history simply doesn’t comply with the rest of history; it does not make sense.

Many scholars and historian have noticed this and remarked about it.

Mark Twain (aka Samuel Clemens), the great American writer, who was an agnostic and a self-acknowledged skeptic, penned this in 1899 in Harper’s Magazine:

“The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away. The Greek and Roman followed, made a vast noise and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up, and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal, but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

Leo Nikolaivitch Tolstoy, unlike Twain, was not an agnostic. He was a very religious, Russian Orthodox Christian. He is also a very famous Russian author from the last century, perhaps best known for his War and Peace. He wrote this in 1908:

"The Jew is the emblem of eternity. He who neither slaughter nor torture of thousands of years could destroy, he who neither fire, nor sword, nor Inquisition was able to wipe off the face of the earth. He who was the first to produce the Oracles of God. He who has been for so long the Guardian of Prophecy and has transmitted it to the rest of the world. Such a nation cannot be destroyed. The Jew is as everlasting as Eternity itself.

Link: aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_67_-_The_Miracle_of_Jewish_History.asp.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

Well, we do agree on one thing for certain, that the continued existance and faithfulness of the Jews can only be explained as a miracle. In fact, it was largely because of this that I stopped being an atheist. The survival of Orthodox Judaism is definately a sign that God exists and honors the Covenants. While I went into the Church as opposed to becoming an Orthodox Jew, it was precisely *because *of the faith of Orthodox Jews that I became a Catholic, and that I became religious at all.

I believe my faith in the Messiah is identical to the faith that the Orthodox Jews have, although the particulars of our beliefs are obviously quite different. When I hear of the Jews who went into the gas chambers singing of their faith in the coming Messiah, I can’t help but think of them as martyrs for the same faith, despite our different expectations.

Well, I would say that the fulfillment of prophecy (i.e. the ingathering of the exiles) is inherently miraculous.

Of course this simply becomes a question of just how well the events fit the prophesies. It’s not the first time that Jews have gathered in Israel since Isaiah was written, and most Jews certainly don’t live in Israel, so how can it be said that “everyone who is named as mine,” have been gathered from exile? I think this, as in so many cases in our faiths, is a place where two intelligent people can safely part ways in opinion. As is made so clear just a few lines later in Isaiah, only God can say for sure until all nations are gathered in witness.

That we caught Nasser completely by surprise when we wiped out the Egyptian Air Force on the ground on the first day of hostilities, that our pre-emptive strike humbled a man who was openly boasting that he would annihilate us, cannot be seen as miraculous?

All the same can be said for any pre-emptive strike, however, most recently our attack on Iraq. Saddam’s boasts were also just as fierce. There’s nothing unusual about catching someone by suprise, espescially when it’s the strategy from the get go. There is also nothing unusual about humbling someone after a suprise attack. It takes a madman (like Saddam) to not be humbled by such events. Again, where you see a miracle, I see a very typical military strategy carried out exactly as planned. It’s as if our eyes were lodged in different heads!

I suppose I stand more in the non-Zionist camp, religiously speaking, but with a healthy (or unhealthy) dose of skepticism and concern thrown in. Personally I find it safer to distance myself from Israel on a religious level; God doesn’t need my assent to perform miracles, after all. I definately stand against Israel on many political issues, which is not to say I wish it to vanish, but that is well outside the realm of what we’re discussing here, and well outside the bounds of these forums in general. It’s also, ironically, the realm more prone to flame-wars (and I’ve also discussed it to death many times). I find the religious angle much more interesting at this point, espescially given the differences in our faiths. How am I, as a Catholic who already believes that the Messiah has come and the Kingdom of God has been established on Earth, to react to my faithful cousins as they controversially and with great cost work towards something I believe was fulfilled two thousand years ago? It’s an interesting conundrum for me, espescially given my love and respect for Judaism in general

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi Ghosty!

Well, we do agree on one thing for certain, that the continued existance and faithfulness of the Jews can only be explained as a miracle.

Agreement at last! :dancing:

Personally I find it safer to distance myself from Israel on a religious level; God doesn’t need my assent to perform miracles, after all. I definately stand against Israel on many political issues,

I hope the foregoing won’t prevent you from visiting one day & that you’ll let me roll out the red carpet for you & be your personal tour guide!

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

Agreement at last! :dancing:

I’m sure we agree on a lot more than we realize. Forums such as this are just generally more conducive to disagreement and debate.

I hope the foregoing won’t prevent you from visiting one day & that you’ll let me roll out the red carpet for you & be your personal tour guide!

Actually I’ve ALWAYS wanted to visit Israel. When I do go, I would love to meet you have you give me the red-carpet tour. It’s more a question of finances than anything else at this point. My recognition or non-recognition of Israel as a nation-state is really not much of an issue; I have more difficulties accepting my own government as legitimate, on both political and religious grounds than I do with Israel (let’s just say I’m fairly consistant in my criticisms) .

I would like to wish you and your people luck in the proposed “cease fire”. I realize this song and dance has been done many times before, and both sides are skeptical of eachother, and rightly so, but it is nice to see things moving in this direction so soon after the death of Arafat and the election of Abbas. I think there is definate reason to hope that Arafat’s corruption may have indeed lost its hold after his death. I’ll raise a glass of Manishevitz tonight in hopes of a lasting truce, if not outright peace!

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi Ghosty!

I would like to wish you and your people luck in the proposed “cease fire”. I realize this song and dance has been done many times before, and both sides are skeptical of eachother, and rightly so, but it is nice to see things moving in this direction so soon after the death of Arafat and the election of Abbas. I think there is definate reason to hope that Arafat’s corruption may have indeed lost its hold after his death.

I agree (on all counts).

I’ll raise a glass of Manishevitz tonight in hopes of a lasting truce, if not outright peace!

Ghosty, Ghosty, Ghosty! There’s much better kosher/Israeli wine out there than sweet, syrupy Manischevitz. See gemsinisrael.com/e_article000033157.htm.

Be well!

ssv