Jews are okay by not considering Jesus as the Messiah or G_d because...

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Excuse me, but did you just compare Jesus Christ to David Koresh? :eek: :mad:

I try to be as charitable as possible, but posts like that must go against point 7 of the conduct rules for this forum (non-Catholics are welcome, but should be respectful of the faith of the Catholics). Please refrain from further slander when expressing your disagreements.
oh, let him have the rope…
 
Take a look other threads how Catholics here are behaving while “debating” people of other faith. It seems that only Catholics are alowed to slander when expressing their disagreements.
So because other people have done it, it is right that you do it too? Surely that can’t be a serious justification. Other people have been uncharitable and cruel (and, shamefully and regretfully, I’m sure I have too), and it is just as wrong when they do it. Nonetheless, you are on a Catholic forum, with its code of conduct clearly posted. I don’t imagine you will last very long here if you only post to degrade Jesus Christ.

Isa: He’ll have his rope in as far as I’m not reporting him to moderators, but I thought perhaps he hadn’t read the rules, and wouldn’t be likely to based on his posts so far.
 
The Holy Torah was in existance before your New Testament thing was written down by a group of people whose most of them were and are unknown till this day.
Unknown? According to whom? The higher critics. They say that E, J and P wrote the Torah. How well known are they?😛
Why me or any Jew - whose book and his belief in One G_d was not challenged nor adultrated prior to your Christian idea (Church idea, I should say) - should offer evidence for an unHoly, non-existant idea of demi-god?
Whose says you have copyright to the OT? You rejected the Septuagint only when the Christians proved too skillful at showing that Jesus was the Christ from it, and your Masoretic text was created only CENTURIES after the Church, and even CENTURIES after the Church fixed our canon of the OT and NT. The posted links touch on this. This includes shading the text, like Isaiah 7:14.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and other findings have undermined any primacy of the Talmud, and the Judaism based on it. The Church’s copyright on the OT is secure. You own the copyright to the Masoretic Tanakh. That means much to the Protestants, but not to the Apostolic Churches.
It is common sense that worshipping more than one ( even just two “parts” of G_d ) is considered idolatory.
And if that is what we did, you might have a point. But we don’t. Btw, Who’s the “We” of Genesis 1:26?
Are you not aware of the fact that during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their precious lives rather than convert and live to commit one of the three cardinal sins?
You seem to have skipped over Judges and Kings and Chronicles, and most of the Prophets. No matter. We honor the devotion of the Hebrews as recorded in Maccabbees. Ooops. I forgot, you don’t believe in them, just celebrate them 25th Kislev.
Because just transgressing from such a harsh unpardonable form of idolatory of worshipping a Christian non-existant demi-god is not enough. A Jew must give up his/her life if he/she is forced to accept it.
How about if they followe Father Abraham and embrace the worship of the True God who appeared to him at Mamre?
I am really surprised that you are asking me (Jews) to offer evidence to disprove post-Holy Torah and the prophets idea…!!!
Jesus said “I AM.”

God said “Let Us create.”

Three Angels of the Lord appeared to Father Abraham at Mamre, and he bowed to them.

Aaron and Levi received their blessing in Father Abraham from the priesthood of Melchizedek, the type of the Eternal High Priest Christ.

David in the Psalms calls Christ Lord, and records that the LORD says “Thou are My Son, today I have begotten Thee.”

and then there’s the Prophets.

What were you saying about post something?
 
The very icon in the end of your every post, is unHoly and a severe mockery with your own “god” because you are showing him almost naked like a man and you are calling him “LORD” and you are preaching us to worship that naked man…!!!
As the Fathers say, we worship Him as Lord not inspite of the Cross, but because of it.
 
As a former Jew myself and a Jew or Hebrew by blood, I can say I firmly believe Jesus Christ fulfills the prophesies of the Old Testament/Torah. The OT talks of a new covenant and tells that there is more, God fulfills His revelation to us in the New Covenant. Any which way you look at it, the Old Testament is incomplete and it clearly says so. By rejecting Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, you reject all the Messianic prophesies due to set time tables about the destruction of the temples. If Jesus is not the Messiah/Christ, there is no Messiah/Christ. The Book of Isaiah even predicts that the Jews would reject the Christ/Messiah as well as the suffering He would have to go because of that. Christianity is the only the extension to Judaism, they do not contradict each other. Judaism isn’t a different religion, it’s just half the story.
 
While Yehoshua bar Yosef was merely a man drawing an analogy between him and David Koresh is both factually problematical as well as inconsiderate.:o
 
The arguments presented by the OP make me think he is not a Jew…
My dad was a Jew and my mother a Unitarian Christian. They gave me a choice to either be a Jew or a Unitarian Christian.

After carefull research, my choice was Judaism b’cause it makes perfect sense for me, whereas Christianity with lots of different flavors, is a set of wierd dogmas which are not even propounded by Christian “god” who is often presented as a naked man in their Churches, when it is a great sin to allow idols in places of worship. An idol of a naked man? No way.

Leviitcus26 - 1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep My sabbaths, and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Besides, to me worshipping a Jewess young “virgin” girl is much greater sin than idolatory. It is a total destruction of the very essence of Holy Torah and the Prophets due to Christian pagan views.

No. I don’t want to invite Anathema.
 
My dad was a Jew and my mother a Unitarian Christian. They gave me a choice to either be a Jew or a Unitarian Christian.

After carefull research, my choice was Judaism b’cause it makes perfect sense for me, whereas Christianity with lots of different flavors, is a set of wierd dogmas which are not even propounded by Christian “god” who is often presented as a naked man in their Churches, when it is a great sin to allow idols in places of worship. An idol of a naked man? No way.

Leviitcus26 - 1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep My sabbaths, and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Besides, to me worshipping a Jewess young “virgin” girl is much greater sin than idolatory. It is a total destruction of the very essence of Holy Torah and the Prophets due to Christian pagan views.

No. I don’t want to invite Anathema.
Grace and Peace,

Perhaps you do not know but Icons never point to themselves but to the reality they depict just as words never speak truth in and of themselves. Both point to that which is not itself and in doing so they escape being what they are. This is the proper use of words and Icons. When either ceases to point to that which it is not and become that which it is not, then we say it has lost it’s usefulness as the Serpent Staff of Moses to the Jewish People and it was torn down. What was once an ‘Icon’ had become an ‘Idol’.

The Fourth Council of Constantinople spoke of the veneration of sacred images (Icons) and it said in the third Canon:

We decree that the sacred image of our Lord Jesus Christ, the liberator and Saviour of all people, must be venerated with the same honour as is given to the book of holy Gospels.

For, as through the language of the words contained in this book all can reach salvation, so, due to the action which these images exercise by their colours, all, wise and simple alike, can derive profit from them. For, what speech conveys in works, pictures announce and bring out in colours. It is fitting, in accordance with sane reason and with the most ancient tradition, since the honour is referred to the principal subject, that the images derived from it be honoured and venerated, as is done for the sacred book of the holy Gospels and for the image of the precious cross.

This was spoken many years ago in the Councils of the Wise of our Faith. We honor their wisdom with deep reflection and see little reason to agree with your interpretation of the Sacred passion. If we were to take such a rigid interpretation as you have offered we would make even God an Idolator for even He has instructed the making of heavenly Icons for the profit of the Jews in the Temple. Thus we must consider your rigid interpretation naive and lacking wisdom. :o
 
Yes - as explained- God prohibited worshiping idols, not making icons. We don’t worship the pictures, we use them to bring us closer to the reality of who the picture depicts. It would be quite ludicrous to worship a statue or a picture and of course sinful. God commanded the statue of the serpent and statues of cherubim. Neither was sinful (otherwise God wouldn’t have commanded it), until the STATUE of the serpent was worshiped.
 
The Fourth Council of Constantinople spoke of the veneration of sacred images (Icons) and it said in the third Canon:

Are you telling me to put your Christian *Fourth Council of Constantinople *above my Holy Torah and the teachings of all the Prophets?

To who you are preaching and convincing? To yourself, right?:confused:
 
Are you telling me to put your Christian *Fourth Council of Constantinople *above my Holy Torah and the teachings of all the Prophets?

To who you are preaching and convincing? To yourself, right?:confused:
He wasn’t putting the Fourth Council of Constantinople above the Holy Bible? He simply quoted it as a means to explain our beliefs on that matter clearly. The Fourth Council of Constantinople dealt with what you are accusing us of now and therefore applies to the situation. As previous stated, ICONS are not IDOLS and we do NOT worship them.
 
Are you telling me to put your Christian *Fourth Council of Constantinople *above my Holy Torah and the teachings of all the Prophets?

To who you are preaching and convincing? To yourself, right?:confused:
Grace and Peace,

You accuse us of idolatry and offer rigid interpretation of passages in the Sacred Text as evidence. I merely offer you the wisdom of our councils to reflect on and point to the inherent contradiction you create for yourself with such a rigid argument.

Please remember you are here among us on our forum as a guest making claims about our faith. Yet you seem to feel that you are somehow a victim and take offense. I find this puzzling. Perhaps you are struggling with something and you are here frustrated no with me by with yourself? Is this possible?
 
Yes - as explained- God prohibited worshiping idols, not making icons. We don’t worship the pictures, we use them to bring us closer to the reality of who the picture depicts. It would be quite ludicrous to worship a statue or a picture and of course sinful. God commanded the statue of the serpent and statues of cherubim. Neither was sinful (otherwise God wouldn’t have commanded it), until the STATUE of the serpent was worshiped.
The other day a moderate Hindu (who opposes idol worship) was arguing with a fundamentalist Hindu idol worshipper of Idols and the fundamentalist Hindu had similar argument as you have to justify his idol/image worship.

Then the moderate Hindu asked him***…" If idols and pictures are just for bringing closer to the Bagwan (G_d for Hindus), then why not make a statue of that naked woman or her vagina who gave birth to your Bagwans (gods), because this where your Krishna or Rama (Hindu gods) came from and they opened their eyes for the first time in their earthly lives of their incarnations? Because vaginas would be an excellent idea to bring people more closer than any other idol or image of human body part. Or how about Penis of Krishna or Rama? This too would work specially in gay Hindus, No?"***

And guess what? That Hindu fundamenstalis was speechless and agreed to read his Vedas properly and think more about this issue.

Are you too came down to this level of arguement with your senseless justification of Idol/image worshipping?
 
Your argument, from a logical state, is ridiculous. If an image helps us reflect on God and what he’s done for us, how is that sacrilegious. A vagina or penis would not bring us closer to anything except maybe sin. It’s ridiculous to say that no one can make artwork of religious figures - it really is. We don’t worship the images, we worship what they depict and use the images as a median to reflect on. And also its quite rude (I think) to try and compare us with Hindu’s as we aren’t the same religion and don’t hold what they believe to be true. Therefore that fundamentalist Hindu can be speechless all he wants without affecting us because he’s not part of our faith. He worships false gods and makes idols or icons or whatever he is doing of false gods, therefore its heretical regardless of whether he is worshiping the image or the deity.
 
I merely offer you the wisdom of our councils to reflect on and point to the inherent contradiction you create for yourself with such a rigid argument.
Are you saying the “wisdom” of your councils are wiser or clearer than our Holy Torah and the Prophets?

Is this same kind of saying as your Paul says “…the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”? 🙂

In other words in your mind, the Jews (who lived prior to the period of your “wise” councilmen) who did not worship idols for thousands of years were all wrong, as they were not wiser?

And who was your “god”? Was he not a Jew himself? Did he promote idols and images of himself or his “Father” in order to bring his enemies closer as fast as he can before his “death”? Why this idea did not come to your “god’s” mind first? Was he not much or more wiser than the concilmen of your Fourth Council of Constantinople?
 
In other words in your mind, the Jews (who lived prior to the period of your “wise” councilmen) who did not worship idols for thousands of years were all wrong, as they were not wiser?
No, they were absolutely right. Worshiping idols is a GRAVE sin.
And who was your “god”? Was he not a Jew himself? Did he promote idols and images of himself or his “Father” in order to bring his enemies closer as fast as he can before his “death”? Why this idea did not come to your “god’s” mind first? Was he not much or more wiser than the concilmen of your Fourth Council of Constantinople?
We don’t worship idols, again, and so that doesn’t apply. But in terms of ICONS He didn’t say anything about them so they aren’t a fundamental to our faith. Sure many Catholics will maybe have an icon or image of some sort to always focus themselves on God, but its not required of them. The seven sacraments are the fundamentals to our faith and they were instituted all by our God. The Holy Scriptures are not all of God for God is infinite. When you argue that Jesus didn’t promote icons as one of the many things that can help someone get closer to God, its like making the argument of why didn’t God, in Genesis, give us men a science lesson? God knows all science so why wasn’t it recorded in the Bible. The answer is the Bible contain only a small part of God’s infinitey, mathematically I supposed an infinitely small part. Icons can help, sure, as can many other things to bring us closer to God, not all of which is recorded in the Bible. You’ll realize not all your Jewish prayers which bring you closer to God are in the Holy Torah, so also not everything else that brings you closer to God in the Holy Scriptures. Am I making sense?
 
And also its quite rude (I think) to try and compare us with Hindu’s as we aren’t the same religion and don’t hold what they believe to be true. Therefore that fundamentalist Hindu can be speechless all he wants without affecting us because he’s not part of our faith. He worships false gods and makes idols or icons or whatever he is doing of false gods, therefore its heretical regardless of whether he is worshiping the image or the deity.
But to a devout Hindu, you are a heretical as your faith came later.

Hinduism is much older than your Christianity.

Besides you worship three-in-one god whereas Hindus worship millions-in-one Bagwan (god).

So these Hindus, from line of your Christian argument, are believers in a more powerfull god than your just three-in-one god . You god is limited to mere three shapes or forms only. Whereas Hindu god can be seen in almost every form shape. And amazingly, they too believe in not just incarnation but incarnations.

🙂
 
But to a devout Hindu, you are a heretical as your faith came later.

Hinduism is much older than your Christianity.

Besides you worship three-in-one god whereas Hindus worship millions-in-one Bagwan (god).

So these Hindus, from line of your Christian argument, are believers in a more powerfull god than your just three-in-one god . You god is limited to merely three shapes or form only. Whereas Hindu god can be seen in almost every form shape. And amazingly, they too believe in not just incarnation but incarnations.

🙂
Christianity is merely an extension to Judaism. They should not really have a different title but since most Jews rejected the Messiah, a distinction had to be made. As being, Hinduism is not older than Christianity and we trace our religion down to Genesis, the beginning of the world. Before God created the world, Hinduism did not exist - I assure you. And your incorrect, Hindus do not worship millions in one god, they are polytheistic and believe in multiple - often times conflicting gods. Their gods are not one, but many. And for you to deny that the all-powerful God is incapable of coming to use in a different form is heretical on your belief. In Genesis it says God was walking, God came to Moses in a burning bush, etc. God has come to your and my prophets in multiple forms.
 
The other day a moderate Hindu (who opposes idol worship) was arguing with a fundamentalist Hindu idol worshipper of Idols and the fundamentalist Hindu had similar argument as you have to justify his idol/image worship.

Then the moderate Hindu asked him***…" If idols and pictures are just for bringing closer to the Bagwan (G_d for Hindus), then why not make a statue of that naked woman or her vagina who gave birth to your Bagwans (gods), because this where your Krishna or Rama (Hindu gods) came from and they opened their eyes for the first time in their earthly lives of their incarnations? Because vaginas would be an excellent idea to bring people more closer than any other idol or image of human body part. Or how about Penis of Krishna or Rama? This too would work specially in gay Hindus, No?"***

And guess what? That Hindu fundamenstalis was speechless and agreed to read his Vedas properly and think more about this issue.

Are you too came down to this level of arguement with your senseless justification of Idol/image worshipping?
Grace and Peace,

I cannot speak with Hindus nor for their practices. What I can do is speak for my tradition and we venerate Icons for the reality they depict (Christ, Theotokos, Saints and the Prophets and events of the Sacred Scriptures) not for the worship of humans nor anatomy. Our Icons have very particular meanings and teaching us very particular things. Your quote seems to suggest that Hindus admire their Statuary for some emotive arousal their presence engenders. Our tradition has no practice like this and so any suggestion that might seek to associate our practice of the veneration of Icons and their tradition seems shallow and thus questionable.

Many people have been taught that the second of the Ten Commandments prohibits icons. However, if correct, all artistic representations of anything wold be forbidden. The Lord Himself in the same book of Exodus commanded Moses to make two gold cherubim “of hammered work,” and to place them at each end of the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant (Ex 25:17-21). The Lord also stipulated that the ten curtains of the tabernacle be woven with images of cherubim on them (Ex 26:1), and likewise the veil (Ex 26:31).

When King Solomon built the temple, the huge basin, or “sea,” was set upon twelve statues of oxen (3Kg 7:13,30). And upon the ten bases of the sea were cast or engraved “lions, oven, and cherubim” (3Kg 7:16), as well s palm trees (3Kg 7:22). The Lord bestowed His blessing upon all these artistic representations first by filling the new temple with His Glory (3Kg 8:10,11), and then by declaring to Solomon, “I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My hear will be there perpetually” (3Kg 9:3).

Perhaps a most striking example of an image made at God’s command in the Old Testament is the bronze serpent that God ordered Moses to make and put on a pole in order to protect the Hebrews bitten by the deadly serpents (Nm 21:4-9; Jn 3:14-15 as well). Hundreds of years later, when the Israelites were offering incense to the same bronze serpent in a kind of idol-worship, King Hexekiah, who “did what was right in the sight of the Lord,” had the serpent smashed into pieces (4Kg 18:3-4).

So it is not the image itself which is faulty or prohibited, but rather its improper use. The prohibition in Exodus 20:4 is not against all artistic representations. Rather, it is against images, whether in human form or not, which would be worshipped as gods and goddesses “gods of silver, and gods of god” (Ex 20:23). For the Lord knew that such images would tempt the Hebrews to depart from worshipping HIm, the One true God (Ex 20:3-5).

Certainly, before the invisible and limitless Lord God of Israel became incarnate, it was impossible to make an image of Him. However, after God the Son assumed a visible and tangible human body, it was natural and beneficial for the Church to create artistic representations of Him and of His holy Mother, and of the saints and angels from the earliest times. According to tradition, St. Luke the Evangelist make at least three icons of Christ and His Mother.

Every image, or icon, of Christ has significant thelogical content. For it proclaims anew the Incarnation of God, who “became flesh” for our salvation (Jn 1:14).

This is what we have had handed down to us through Holy Orthodoxy (Sacred Tradition). I humbly submit it to you and others for deeper reflection and understanding.
 
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