Jews are okay by not considering Jesus as the Messiah or G_d because...

[chrisb]

But to a devout Hindu, you are a heretical as your faith came later.

Hinduism is much older than your Christianity.

Besides you worship three-in-one god whereas Hindus worship millions-in-one Bagwan (god).

We believe our first parents walked with God in the Garden and Fell into corruption and wayward and diverse thinking. Thus the many manifestations of worship throughout the world.

So these Hindus, from line of your Christian argument, are believers in a more powerfull god than your just three-in-one god . You god is limited to mere three shapes or forms only. Whereas Hindu god can be seen in almost every form shape. And amazingly, they too believe in not just incarnation but incarnations.

Quantity has never been a divine sign of strength, in fact it is a lack of omnipotence. We worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in unity.

You demonstrate a lack of familiarity in the mystery of the Holy Trinity as well as a conflation in the Incarnation and the Hindu teaching of Avatars…

These are not the same thing. Do you wish to discuss the Holy Trinity?

 

[aaronjo]

Many people have been taught that the second of the Ten Commandments prohibits icons. However, if correct, all artistic representations of anything wold be forbidden.

You can make images or icons for other reasons but most certainly not of an almost naked man (with barely a cloth on his private parts) for hanging right in the Churches and take your children (boys and girls) there to show them how your “god” looks like and how badly he was murdered/killed for no crime committed …obviously a picture is worth thousand words and an idol should be morethan thousand words…now the young innocent Christian minds would ask next question, why and who killed our such an innocent and helpless Christian god mercylessly? You will tell them “Jews of his time killed him”.

Would you prefer to walk naked in public with a cloth on your private parts, just like how you depict your holy “god” in pictures and idols in your Chruches?

 

[aaronjo]

Quantity has never been a divine sign of strength, in fact it is a lack of omnipotence. We worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in unity.

Quantity is a lack of omnipotence? So three forms of your “god” too must be a lack of omnipotence then? S you are worshipping a god who is lesser in his omnipotence.

Thanks G_d that Holy Torah and the Prophets did not teach what you think is a lack of omnipotence, thus G_d of Isreal is the most POWERFULL G_D.

 

[chrisb]

You can make images or icons for other reasons but most certainly not of an almost naked man (with barely a cloth on his private parts) for hanging right in the Churches and take your children (boys and girls) there to show them how your “god” looks like and how badly he was murdered/killed for no crime committed …obviously a picture is worth thousand words and an idol should be morethan thousand words…now the young innocent Christian minds would ask next question, why and who killed our such an innocent and helpless Christian god mercylessly? You will tell them “Jews of his time killed him”.

Would you prefer to walk naked in public with a cloth on your private parts, just like how you depict your holy “god” in pictures and idols in your Chruches?

It appears that your principle argument is with the Crucifix? Here is an Icon of the Crucified Jesus. Is this problematic with you?

http://habitusnetwork.org/images/stories/icons/Crucifix.jpg

 

[inJESUS]

I see that your argument shift from the making of Icons to how we depict Jesus

 

[inJESUS]

Thanks G_d that Holy Torah and the Prophets did not teach what you think is a lack of omnipotence, thus G_d of Isreal is the most POWERFULL G_D.

Amen, with His Word and Holy Spirit

 

[zachattack936]

You can make images or icons for other reasons but most certainly not of an almost naked man (with barely a cloth on his private parts) for hanging right in the Churches and take your children (boys and girls) there to show them how your “god” looks like and how badly he was murdered/killed for no crime committed …obviously a picture is worth thousand words and an idol should be morethan thousand words…now the young innocent Christian minds would ask next question, why and who killed our such an innocent and helpless Christian god mercylessly? You will tell them “Jews of his time killed him”.

Would you prefer to walk naked in public with a cloth on your private parts, just like how you depict your holy “god” in pictures and idols in your Chruches?

First I’ll answer your second question: No, we wouldn’t. That’s the whole point. The Messiah/Christ was humiliated, tortured, and killed for being who He was. However God made that sacrifice out of fatherly love for us so as to save us from our sins. That sacrifice was so great that it should be remembered as it was. If we take the sacrifice out of the imagery of God’s sacrifice - well, do you see the inconsistency? Any actually Christ was naked when the events actually took place - the cloth you usually see is for modesty.

And it was actually the Romans by the order of the Jews, yes, who ordered Jesus’ crucifixion. That’s how it happened but of course the Jews of today aren’t like the Pharisees of Jesus’ time and I’ve never met someone personally who looked at the story with a hate for Jews since our religion is an extension of Judaism and our God was made incarnate as a Jew, so the prophesies said.

 

[chrisb]

Quantity is a lack of omnipotence? So three forms of your “god” too must be a lack of omnipotence then? S you are worshipping a god who is lesser in his omnipotence.

Thanks G_d that Holy Torah and the Prophets did not teach what you think is a lack of omnipotence, thus G_d of Isreal is the most POWERFULL G_D.

The Christian confession of faith in God as the Three-in-One, as he who is simultaneously the monas and the trias, absoulute unity and fullness, signifies the conviction that divinty lies beyond our categories of unity and plurality. Although to us, the nondivine, it is one and single, the one and only divine as opposed to all that is not divine; nevertheless in itself it is truly fulness and plurality, so that creaturely unity and plurality are both in the same degree a likeness and a share of the divine.

Because we know God to be agape in and of Himself outside of an exterior subject we know that there exists within the Fullness of the Divine objects of giving and receiving agape.

The Holy Trinity is revealed both in the Old and in the New Testament. In the Old, the Trinity is revealed in subtle ways; in the New, the Trinity is revealed fully and plainly, beginning at the Baptism of our Lord.

The Holy Trinity is one God in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These Persons are distinct, but not separate, and are not three gods. They are One God because They are one in essense or nature.

 

[aaronjo]

Christianity is merely an extension to Judaism. They should not really have a different title but since most Jews rejected the Messiah, a distinction had to be made.

Judaism and Christianuity are two different faiths.

The first Judaism leads to G_d who is REAL G_D of Israel and all.

The other (Christianity) takes you to worshipping of an idea alien to the Holy torah and the Prophets. It is anti-Judaism. That is why so many Jews were murdered and kicked out from their homes and their belongings and properties were stolen by Christians when Church had upper hand.

As to Christian Messiah, again For Jews, Jesus was not a prophet and he did not fulfill the Messianoc prophecies.

To be a Messiah, he should gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel, build the Third Temple , bring peace, end oppression, spread wide knowledge of the G_d of Israel etc. Which one of these Jesus fulfilled? NONE.

So you are preaching a fraud and false thing from Holy Torah perspective by twisting it. This book was not for you. It was and is for Jews and Jews only have to expalin it to the whole gentile world.

Then why you Christains talk BAD about other religion or religions when Christians themseleves are guilty of preaching fraud and misconception which is BAD in other peoples eye?

For example of how Christians talk, take a look at this very forum how they mock Jews, moslems and even Hindus.

 

[aaronjo]

The Holy Trinity is one God in three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This is nonsense. Because G_d of Israel is ONE. period !

There never was any basis for Trinity in Judaism.

In the words of Moses Nachmanides who once said in a debate, "for believing in the divinity of the Messiah or, indeed, of any man. … it seemed most strange **“that the Creator of heaven and earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewess and grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards… he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, cannot tolerate this.” **

 

[chrisb]

The other (Christianity) takes you to worshipping of an idea alien to the Holy torah and the Prophets. It is anti-Judaism. That is why so many Jews were murdered and kicked out from their homes and their belongings and properties were stolen by Christians when Church had upper hand.

You seem to be accusing ‘all’ Christians of the actions of Crusades. Please be aware that these were the actions of individuals of Western Europe and barely Christian by any stretch of one’s imagination. Orthodox Christians as well as Oriental Christian suffered at the hands of these barbarians just as those of the Jews of that day. You cannot conflate all of Christianity with these crimes.

As to Christian Messiah, again For Jews, Jesus was not a prophet and he did not fulfill the Messianoc prophecies.

To be a Messiah, he should gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel, build the Third Temple , bring peace, end oppression, spread wide knowledge of the G_d of Israel etc. Which one of these Jesus fulfilled? NONE.

You look at each of these as ‘exterior’ afflictions when they are actually borne from ‘interior’ disorders. Christ came to liberate man from himself and if liberating himself he liberates his brother. The fact that man refuses to accept these gifts does not make our Lord and Saviour any less.

Then why you Christains talk BAD about other religion or religions when Christians themseleves are guilty of preaching fraud and misconception which is BAD in other peoples eye?

If Christians talk ‘bad’ about other religions and fail to bare the fruit of the Spirit then blame the individuals and not the Faith because it is clear that we, as Christians, must be kind and thoughtful in what we say and do toward others.

For example of how Christians talk, take a look at this very forum how they mock Jews, moslems and even Hindus.

Judge me by my actions and you would do well.

 

[dzheremi]

So you are preaching a fraud and false thing from Holy Torah perspective by twisting it. This book was not for you. It was and is for Jews and Jews only have to expalin it to the whole gentile world.

Jews only, huh? Okay then. HMMM…now who do we know was JEW…maybe someone we Christians worship…which Jew could we possibly look to for guidance and explanation of proper principles? OH, I KNOW! Aaronjo, right? Wait, no…that can’t be right…HMMM…

Then why you Christains talk BAD about other religion or religions when Christians themseleves are guilty of preaching fraud and misconception which is BAD in other peoples eye?

This particular argument from you is getting very tiresome, Sir. I answered this pages ago. We are CHRISTIANS. What the Muslims or the Jews or anyone else preaches is NOT what we follow, so we are not persuaded by appeals to their own codes. They are meant for followers of THOSE religions, just as our principles are meant for US (and, since we believe we are right and you are not, we wish you would join us in the faith, but we won’t force you; if you are happy and secure in your faith as you are, then may God bless you all the more for it). If you cannot deal with this natural outcome of monotheism, maybe you should stop being a Jew and become something else.

The presence of the Jewish holy book in the Bible may cause you some concern or even offense, but that does nothing to change the fact that the first Christians were in fact heretical Jews, that Christianity started essentially as a heretical sect within Judaism. It is my understanding that this at least part of the justification for the presence of the Jewish holy book in the Bible, because it explains the tradition that we came out of with the new covenant. You are of course free to disagree with our interpretations of your book (as we do with your interpretations of ours), and continue to label us heretics if you’d like. What all of the Jewish people (every one of which that I have met have disagreed with Christianity much more politely than you do, by the way), or the modern state of Israel, or any other body or entity may think is not going to make us change our beliefs.

For example of how Christians talk, take a look at this very forum how they mock Jews, moslems and even Hindus.

For an example of how Jews talk, take a look at your own posts and see the vitriol that they spew at concepts and beliefs they don’t even seek to understand, only to humiliate, degrade, and ultimately banish themselves from discussion over.

Hopefully the above paragraph doesn’t feel like a very fair characterization of your people, so you can see the flaw inherent in your conversation style.

 

[zachattack936]

Judaism and Christianuity are two different faiths.

The first Judaism leads to G_d who is REAL G_D of Israel and all.

The other (Christianity) takes you to worshipping of an idea alien to the Holy torah and the Prophets. It is anti-Judaism. That is why so many Jews were murdered and kicked out from their homes and their belongings and properties were stolen by Christians when Church had upper hand.

We would obviously disagree and say both Judaism and Christianity lead you to God who is the real God of Israel as there is no contradiction between the two and Christianity is merely an extension to Judaism. We believe we have the fullness of God’s revelation and that you guys just have 'half the story" so to speak. Christianity worships the same God as you so its not an idea alien to the Holy Torah and the Prophets. It’s not anti-Judaism, its FULL Judaism. And in reference to what historical event your referring to, umm, what historical event are you suffering to? Violating their faith, people of all faiths have committed atrocities - Christian, Jew, Muslim, it doesn’t matter. The early Christians were severely persecuted (crucified, fed to lions, tortured and beheaded, etc.) by the Romans a lot of times by the order of the Pharisees. I wouldn’t point fingers usually, but you seem to think only Christians have persecuted other people? No, your people have too.

For example of how Christians talk, take a look at this very forum how they mock Jews, moslems and even Hindus.

Respectfully, and perhaps its just where I’ve been surfing, but I haven’t born witness to Christians mocking other religions on this (Christian) forum.

This book was not for you. It was and is for Jews and Jews only have to expalin it to the whole gentile world.

Also just FYI I’m not a gentile, I am a Jew/Hebrew by race and a convert to Christianity. So I guess it is a book for me. But you do, unlike most Jews, have a correct interpretation of Jewish theology in that, coming from your standpoint, it is only for people of the Jewish/Hebrew ancestry. Some Jewish people think that where they are coming from, gentile are allowed entry into the Jewish religion which they are not according to the Torah. In our religion, an extension to Judaism, they are however because God decides to open up his Covenant to the whole world and all His children.

As to Christian Messiah, again For Jews, Jesus was not a prophet and he did not fulfill the Messianoc prophecies.

To be a Messiah, he should gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel, build the Third Temple , bring peace, end oppression, spread wide knowledge of the G_d of Israel etc. Which one of these Jesus fulfilled? NONE.

Jesus preached a new Jerusalem, a new Kingdom. This was the Kingdom of Heaven where yes there will be peace and all sorts. Revelations (the final book of the Bible describing, in part, the end of the world) tells what Jesus will do when He returns to the world (second coming). When all this are done and finalized, every prophesy will be fulfilled although most of the prophesies have already been fulfilled.

Then why you Christains talk BAD about other religion or religions when Christians themseleves are guilty of preaching fraud and misconception which is BAD in other peoples eye?

If there is a Christian talking bad about other religions (which is different from disagreeing, perhaps you should be more concise in your definition of ‘bad’) they are sinning. Christians are taught to love all people regardless of anything else. If you feel hatred or anger or anything from a Christian know (and point out) that it is a violation of their faith.

 

[chrisb]

This is nonsense. Because G_d of Israel is ONE. period !

I am sorry you feel that way. Until you witness the depths of the Divine in Love you will only see a tyrant on high and you will live in oppression and anger toward those who know better.

There never was any basis for Trinity in Judaism.

I will not seek to illuminate you any further on this matter.

In the words of Moses Nachmanides who once said in a debate, "for believing in the divinity of the Messiah or, indeed, of any man. … it seemed most strange "that the Creator of heaven and earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewess and grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards… he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, cannot tolerate this."

You are surely entitled to maintain this radical distinction between man and God. Christians cannot do this because through Christ we are invited into participation in the Godhead as sons and daughters. We are invited into a personal relationship borne from that union of God and Man in Christ. Amen.

Perhaps as you grow in greater confidence and conviction in your own faith you will not be so rude or defensive and we will be able to sit and share our faiths and wisdom gained from them.

I wish you peace.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

My dad was a Jew and my mother a Unitarian Christian. They gave me a choice to either be a Jew or a Unitarian Christian.

After carefull research, my choice was Judaism b’cause it makes perfect sense for me, whereas Christianity with lots of different flavors, is a set of wierd dogmas which are not even propounded by Christian “god” who is often presented as a naked man in their Churches, when it is a great sin to allow idols in places of worship. An idol of a naked man? No way.

Leviitcus26 - 1 Ye shall make you no idols, neither shall ye rear you up a graven image, or a pillar, neither shall ye place any figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it; for I am the LORD your God. 2 Ye shall keep My sabbaths, and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Besides, to me worshipping a Jewess young “virgin” girl is much greater sin than idolatory. It is a total destruction of the very essence of Holy Torah and the Prophets due to Christian pagan views.

No. I don’t want to invite Anathema.

If I may ask, what form of Judaism did you convert to?

Btw, what do you say about all those images, like the mercy seat, that God reveals to Moses and tells him to make and place in the Holy of Holies?

What worshipping of a Jewess are you talking about. Solomon the king bowed to the Queen Mother. We shouldn’t honor the mother of the Lord?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Are you telling me to put your Christian *Fourth Council of Constantinople *above my Holy Torah and the teachings of all the Prophets?

To who you are preaching and convincing? To yourself, right?

My Holy Pentateuch and the teachings of all the Prophets are guarded by the canons of Constantinople and all the other Councils of the Church.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The other day a moderate Hindu (who opposes idol worship) was arguing with a fundamentalist Hindu idol worshipper of Idols and the fundamentalist Hindu had similar argument as you have to justify his idol/image worship.

Then the moderate Hindu asked him***…" If idols and pictures are just for bringing closer to the Bagwan (G_d for Hindus), then why not make a statue of that naked woman or her vagina who gave birth to your Bagwans (gods), because this where your Krishna or Rama (Hindu gods) came from and they opened their eyes for the first time in their earthly lives of their incarnations? Because vaginas would be an excellent idea to bring people more closer than any other idol or image of human body part. Or how about Penis of Krishna or Rama? This too would work specially in gay Hindus, No?"***

And guess what? That Hindu fundamenstalis was speechless and agreed to read his Vedas properly and think more about this issue.

Are you too came down to this level of arguement with your senseless justification of Idol/image worshipping?

Btw, the Hindus do have idols of vaginas and penises (they are called linga and yoni: the linga was in the Temple of Doom movie).

Given the cult around the foreskin in Judaism, I’d tread more carefully.

You still haven’t explained the images that G-d has ordered in the Holy of Holies.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Are you saying the “wisdom” of your councils are wiser or clearer than our Holy Torah and the Prophets?

The Definitions of the Counsels are the equal, as the same Holy Spirit spoke in both.

The canons are the wisdom of the Fathers, not the equal of Scripture but superior to your Talmud.

Is this same kind of saying as your Paul says “…the foolishness of God is wiser than men and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”?

yes, our Paul, he was one of yours and became one of ours.

In other words in your mind, the Jews (who lived prior to the period of your “wise” councilmen) who did not worship idols for thousands of years were all wrong, as they were not wiser?

You seem to be claiming the Israelites of the OT. Not worshipped idols for thousands of years? Have you read the Prophets? The Israelites only got it together with monotheism around the time they returned from exile (a real wake up). There’s only a thousand years or so seperating that from Constantinople’s councils.

And who was your “god”? Was he not a Jew himself?

No, Hebrew. He exposed the Talmud.

Did he promote idols and images of himself or his “Father” in order to bring his enemies closer as fast as he can before his “death”?

I’d answer if what exactly you are accusing the Lord of was clear.

Why this idea did not come to your “god’s” mind first?

He who has seen Me has seen the Father. John 14:9. It had occured to God’s mind first.

Was He not much or more wiser than the concilmen of your Fourth Council of Constantinople?

The Fathers of the Council speak His wisdom, the Wisdom of God.

 

[aaronjo]

My Holy Pentateuch and the teachings of all the Prophets are guarded by the canons of Constantinople and all the other Councils of the Church.

Guarded in order to twist it’s meaning…right?

In the libraries and museums of non-Christian world too, the Holy Torah and Jewish literature is guarded and kept for decades or centuries. What does this prove to you? Are they to be taken above Holy Torah simply because they are guarding these Holy Books?

But most certainly they ar better than your Councils, because they are atleast not twisitng the words/meaning of our Holy Torah.

 

[aaronjo]

The Fathers of the Council speak His wisdom, the Wisdom of God.

But those “Fathers” are your Fathers not my fathers.

I cannot call your fathers as my father. I have only ONE human father. And my G-_D is not a man.

The wisdom of your fathers is meant for people like you who accept them as their fathers.

Why should a Jew or a Moslem or a Hindu or Buddhist accept your fathers’ so called wisdom by going againts his own real ONE father’s wisdom? They all have their own wisdoms alongwith their Holy Books. Why you are enforcing/imposing your fathers’ wisdom on others and asking them to reject their own fathers’ wisdom?

Are you not insane?