Jews Catholics Conversion Covenant

[clmowry]

The Torah and its laws were those of a specific nation-the Jews. They had the ability to develop a religion around such laws because of natural acumen and because they could develop the required literacy among their specific group- for instance to legislate that twice a year all males would leave their fields and study the law. Those circumstances were lacking in the general population both as to general ability and as to literacy.

This is the second time you’ve said this. Maybe I should just keep reading.

The jews invented the Jewish religion because they could?

You don’t really mean this do you?

Your religion was a result of the direct revalation of God to Moses, correct?

Chuck

 

[GraceDK]

jdnrite01;3641904:

I forgot to comment on this line:

I was referring to the Aleinu

which contains this passage:

It prays that all will come to God not to Judaism. It obviously worked since Jews Christians and Moslems basically pray to the same God.

Alas… should I live to see a Jew call the god of the Muslims the same G-d that Jews worship I do hold Jews in high esteem… and yes, I recognize that many Jews are quite clever (this can on the other hand also lead to some sort of dryness, if you get my point) … but please… according to islamic revelation, their god says that Jews are pigs… in great contrast to this, the prophets of Israel say that the Jews are the favourite son and even wife of G-d… so however could you think you worship the g-d of the muslims? That puzzles me … just as much as it does when its said by well-meaning Catholics… Luckily all they need is a few quoted sura to change their minds…

Baruch Hashem.

 

[clmowry]

The story goes that God offered the Torah to all the nations on earth and only came last to the Jews who were the only ones who accepted it.

Where does Jewish scripture claim this?

Chuck

 

[Valke2]

It is a midrash in the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b). The Jews were the last nation offered the Torah and God held a mountain over their head (in case we said ‘no’)
This is based in part on Exodus 19:17 which refers to the Jews being underneath the mountain (although the less accuratge “At the foot of the mountain” is the more common translation).

 

[Jimdandy]

There is only ONE God. He is God of all-even those who are incorrect or incomplete in their faith.

This discussion is falling from the silly to the absurd.

Now I see why that one person sings the wheels of the bus

I am tired of all this nonsense

Goodbye all

 

[Valke2]

Here’s a nice little teaching on the subject.

jewishservice.org/learn_details.html?catID=9&lid=501

 

[jdnrite01]

Valke2 cites Parshat Hashavua - Weekly Torah Commentary - Parshat Yitro 5766 which states:

At first glance it is difficult to understand the meaning of the rabbinic teaching [Avodah Zarah 2b] that the Holy Blessed One offered the Torah to each and every nation of the world, and that it was only after they rejected it that He came to our people. It is hard to imagine that it was possible for God [to even consider] giving the Torah to non-Jews. In truth, the Holy Blessed One did this in order to [deepen His] love [for] Israel. By approaching each and every nation, having them decline acceptance [of the Torah], and having the seed of Israel accept it, His love for them [Israel]
increased.

It seems to me that some of the Talmudic Rabbis are very selective about their teachings. For instance, the highlighted text in the above-quoted provision defies the Divine attribute of Immutability as defined in the Jewish Encyclopedia’s article entitled Theology:

The Jewish faith in the absolute unity of God necessarily implies His immutability, the unchangeableness of His resolutions, and the constancy of His will. This doctrine of God’s immutability is often emphasized in the Scriptures: “For I am the Lord, I change not” (Mal. iii. 6); “God is not aman, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent” (Num. xxiii. 19); “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Sam. xv. 29). It is also said with reference to His ordinances that they are everlasting and unchangeable: “He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: He hath made a decree which shall not pass” (Ps. cxlviii. 6; comp. Maimonides, “Moreh,” iii. 20; Albo, l.c. ii. 19).

(Bold and italics added by me for emphasis.)

 

[Todd_Easton]

One of my central points was that the Catholic perspective of the “new covenant” is not only “new” or “unlike” the covenant of God with the Jews it is infact its antithesis.

The Torah says:
You shall not murder; every murder shall be liable to judgment.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.
The Torah says:
You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Anyone who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his thoughts.
The Torah says:
You shall love your countryman but hate your enemy.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Love your enemies, pray for your persecutors.

Those who enter the new covenant are not called to antithetical moral standards but to even higher moral standards than those of the old.

You are free to conclude that there never was a covenant with the Jewish people but a covenant based on the rejection of the Jews of devine beings taking human form and based on Torah can hardly lead logically to a covenant which rejects Torah and claims that God came down to earth as Yehoshua bar Yosef. It is similarly illogical to interpret Jewish scriptures (including the Torah itself) to support that the Jewish covenant was directly contrary to the “real” covenant.

I did not say that there never was a covenant with the Jewish people. I said, with the prophet Jeremiah, that God was going to and in Jesus Christ did establish a new (and better) covenant with them.

It is clear from the Bible that God loves the Jewish people. Otherwise, He would not have sent His angels in human form nor inspired His prophets to speak His words to them. In establishing the new covenant, His love for the Jewish people was manifest even more plainly in that, instead of sending an angel in human form or inspiring a prophet to speak His words to them as in the past, He came to speak His words to them Himself, miraculously uniting a human nature to His divine nature in the person of Jesus Christ. I do not see this as antithetical to way He had previously shown His love for His Chosen People but as an even greater experssion of that same love.

 

[Valke2]

Valke2 cites Parshat Hashavua - Weekly Torah Commentary - Parshat Yitro 5766 which states:

It seems to me that some of the Talmudic Rabbis are very selective about their teachings. For instance, the highlighted text in the above-quoted provision defies the Divine attribute of Immutability as defined in the Jewish Encyclopedia’s article entitled Theology:

(Bold and italics added by me for emphasis.)

there are two schools of thought in Judaism. One emphasizes the transcendence and the other the immance of God.

 

[jdnrite01]

Regarding the immutability of God, Valke2 said:

there are two schools of thought in Judaism. One emphasizes the transcendence and the other the immance [sic] of God.

Sorry, but I don’t buy the transcendence/immanence distinction regarding the fundamental attributes of God. Moreover, ***Near and Far, by Kenneth Sperbe***r, says this:

In the b’rakha formula we encounter two irreconcilable conceptualizations of God. Surely we must choose between them. But our tradition comes to teach us that challenging though it is, we must hold and consider both of these ideas simultaneously, rejecting neither. At some times one or the other dominates. Thus on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, God is “the King, sitting on the glorious and awesome throne.” On Shabbat, God is our “neighbor,” and our “beloved soulmate.” But 100 times every day we recite this six-word formula that insists that God is both.

To argue that a transcendent God is immutable precludes the existence of an immanent, mutable God, and vice versa.

 

[bobzills]

To argue that a transcendent God is immutable precludes the existence of an immanent, mutable God, and vice versa.

I thought that God could be transcendent and immanent and immutable. The mutability part comes in the consideration of the creatures of God. God’s human creation, man, can be changed for the better by observing God’s Laws.

 

[bobzills]

**I have a question?
**

1. idolatry (also from polytheism = worshipping multiple gods);

It is my understanding that the Jewish religion teaches that the Christian concept of God as Triune- ie: the Trinity, and the fact that as it has been mentioned we believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and is in fact God incarnate, that these are to the Jewish mind idolotrous concepts.

**Here is my question? - Is this an accurate statement? **

Would it be fair to say that even though you said above that gentiles “have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments” to reach the world to come

that Catholic as well as almost all of Christianity then would be in violation of the first Noachide law"

Therefore from a Jewish perspective we cannot not reach the World to come that is unless we reject Christianity and our believe in God as Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Would this be a true statement from a Jewish viewpoint?

I am interested in this question also. Is Catholicism idolatrous according to Judaism and therefore are all Catholics in violation of the command against idolatry? In other words, will all Catholics then go to hell, as they cannot obey even the first of the Noahide Laws, according to Judaism?

 

[bobzills]

The story goes that God offered the Torah to all the nations on earth and only came last to the Jews who were the only ones who accepted it.

In other words, is it true that every Chinese person rejected God? Is this written down somewhere in Chinese history, that each Chinese individually rejected God, and the same was true for all of the other nations, such as India, Vietnam, Tibet, Africa, Slavic peoples, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Arabs, etc. And so the only people on the face of the earth who accepted God and His Laws, were the Jewish people? And so God rejected everyone else, and chose only the Jews? Can you cite any evidence from the indigenous and native history of India, China, Vietnam, Japan, Egypt, Persia, Tibet, or the African continent which will support your thesis?

 

[chosen_people]

I am interested in this question also. Is Catholicism idolatrous according to Judaism and therefore are all Catholics in violation of the command against idolatry? In other words, will all Catholics then go to hell, as they cannot obey even the first of the Noahide Laws, according to Judaism?

Firstly the Catholic concept of Hell does not exist in Judaism. Secondly, where if not concerning personal religious beliefs should a subjective as opposed to an objective test apply? Jews do not teach their children that their Catholic neighbours are not going to the world to come.

 

[chosen_people]

In other words, is it true that every Chinese person rejected God? Is this written down somewhere in Chinese history, that each Chinese individually rejected God, and the same was true for all of the other nations, such as India, Vietnam, Tibet, Africa, Slavic peoples, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Arabs, etc. And so the only people on the face of the earth who accepted God and His Laws, were the Jewish people? And so God rejected everyone else, and chose only the Jews? Can you cite any evidence from the indigenous and native history of India, China, Vietnam, Japan, Egypt, Persia, Tibet, or the African continent which will support your thesis?

Rejected Torah- indeed the idea of monotheism without God represented by an object or in human form was unique to the Jews.

 

[Valke2]

Regarding the immutability of God, Valke2 said:

Sorry, but I don’t buy the transcendence/immanence distinction regarding the fundamental attributes of God. Moreover, ***Near and Far, by Kenneth Sperbe***r, says this:

To argue that a transcendent God is immutable precludes the existence of an immanent, mutable God, and vice versa.

You don’t have to buy it. But rabbinic Judaism has a more than 2,000 year history of living in the tension between this duality.

 

[Valke2]

In other words, is it true that every Chinese person rejected God? Is this written down somewhere in Chinese history, that each Chinese individually rejected God, and the same was true for all of the other nations, such as India, Vietnam, Tibet, Africa, Slavic peoples, the Egyptians, the Persians, the Arabs, etc. And so the only people on the face of the earth who accepted God and His Laws, were the Jewish people? And so God rejected everyone else, and chose only the Jews? Can you cite any evidence from the indigenous and native history of India, China, Vietnam, Japan, Egypt, Persia, Tibet, or the African continent which will support your thesis?

There is a difference between rejecting God and rejecting Torah, at least in the context of the midrash that we are discussing. And we are not talking about a thesis. We are talking about a story who’s purpose is to illuminate a specific teaching found in the Torah.

 

[Valke2]

I am interested in this question also. Is Catholicism idolatrous according to Judaism and therefore are all Catholics in violation of the command against idolatry? In other words, will all Catholics then go to hell, as they cannot obey even the first of the Noahide Laws, according to Judaism?

There is not exactly a consenus on the issue of whether Catholics are monotheists. However, the basic understanding in Judaism is that a Catholic is practicing monotheism, but if a Jew were to adopt a triume theology, it would be a form of idolatry for the Jew. The halacha on this is not concerned with whether or not Christians are doing something wrong, but only what a Jew may or may not do (i.e., entering a Church).

 

[chosen_people]

The Torah says:
You shall not murder; every murder shall be liable to judgment.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.
The Torah says:
You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Anyone who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his thoughts.
The Torah says:
You shall love your countryman but hate your enemy.
Jesus Christ goes even further and says:
Love your enemies, pray for your persecutors.

Those who enter the new covenant are not called to antithetical moral standards but to even higher moral standards than those of the old.

I did not say that there never was a covenant with the Jewish people. I said, with the prophet Jeremiah, that God was going to and in Jesus Christ did establish a new (and better) covenant with them.

It is clear from the Bible that God loves the Jewish people. Otherwise, He would not have sent His angels in human form nor inspired His prophets to speak His words to them. In establishing the new covenant, His love for the Jewish people was manifest even more plainly in that, instead of sending an angel in human form or inspiring a prophet to speak His words to them as in the past, He came to speak His words to them Himself, miraculously uniting a human nature to His divine nature in the person of Jesus Christ. I do not see this as antithetical to way He had previously shown His love for His Chosen People but as an even greater experssion of that same love.

The point about the covenant was mine not yours. The covenant with the Jews was Torah and the Jewish concept of a unique God entirely divorced of tangible form whether as an object or as a human. The “new covenant” to which you refer was that Torah was invalid and that God took human form and walked the earth. This is the antithesis of the covenant between God and the Jews. It is impossible and illogical to claim that the “new covenant” derives from the covenant with the Jewish people just as it is illogical that the Jews could accept a “new” covenant that totally negated their covenant with God. Therefore if you believe that the “new” covenant is valid you must also conclude that there never was a covenant with the Jewish people.

As to your other point, indeed it has always been my understanding that Catholics believe that God came down to earth to teach Jewish ethics to the masses.

 

[chosen_people]

This is the second time you’ve said this. Maybe I should just keep reading.

The jews invented the Jewish religion because they could?

You don’t really mean this do you?

Your religion was a result of the direct revalation of God to Moses, correct?

Chuck

The Torah was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. According to Jewish tradition the Torah (including the oral law) was dictated by God to Moses. Reform or Conservative Jews would probably say that the Torah was devinely inspired. My other points were as to the development of Catholicism.