Jews Catholics Conversion Covenant

[deanarrca]

the Catholic concept of Hell does not exist in Judaism…

This scripture in Daniel seems to describe eternal torment for the wicked after death -Same idea as Christian hell

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.” Daniel 12:2

 

[Todd_Easton]

The covenant with the Jews was Torah and the Jewish concept of a unique God entirely divorced of tangible form whether as an object or as a human. The “new covenant” to which you refer was that Torah was invalid and that God took human form and walked the earth. This is the antithesis of the covenant between God and the Jews. It is impossible and illogical to claim that the “new covenant” derives from the covenant with the Jewish people just as it is illogical that the Jews could accept a “new” covenant that totally negated their covenant with God. Therefore if you believe that the “new” covenant is valid you must also conclude that there never was a covenant with the Jewish people.

The Catholic concept of God is not as antithetical to the Jewish concept of God as you might think. Before the Incarnation, all three Persons of the Triune God were entirely divorced of tangible form. At the Incarnation, two thousand years ago, only one of the three Persons (the Son) was joined to a tangible form (a human nature) in Jesus Christ. The other two Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit) remain entirely divorced of tangible form.

By the way, though you say that the Jewish concept of God is of a being entirely divorced of tangible form, God is regularly anthropromorphized in the Torah, with mention made of His face, eyes, mouth, arm, hands, back, and feet. (Genesis 6:8; Exodus 6:6; 15:17; 24:10; 33:23; Deuteronomy 8:3) I see this as a preparation in the Torah itself for the Incarnation that was to follow.

 

[PetersKeys]

What I find interesting is that the Apostle Paul, during the end of his Epistle to the Romans, he talks about the Jews are still his chosen people, and that during the end of time the Jews WILL finally come to Christ. What I find interesting is it seems more and more Jews are believing in Christ. When I went through RCIA last year we had around 4 Jewish people in our class.

This scripture in Daniel seems to describe eternal torment for the wicked after death -Same idea as Christian hell

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.” Daniel 12:2

Yes that is True. Also Isaiah talks about an eternal punishment for the wicked. And if you read in the works of Josephues is shows the Jews did beleive in Hades.

Isaiah 66:22-24:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
*
The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God. - psalm 9:17*

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.” Daniel 12:2

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains

“And THE EARTH OPENED HER MOUTH, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive INTO THE PIT, and the EARTH CLOSED UPON THEM:” Numbers 16:32-33

 

[chosen_people]

What I find interesting is that the Apostle Paul, during the end of his Epistle to the Romans, he talks about the Jews are still his chosen people, and that during the end of time the Jews WILL finally come to Christ. What I find interesting is it seems more and more Jews are believing in Christ. When I went through RCIA last year we had around 4 Jewish people in our class.

Yes that is True. Also Isaiah talks about an eternal punishment for the wicked. And if you read in the works of Josephues is shows the Jews did beleive in Hades.

Isaiah 66:22-24:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
*
The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God. - psalm 9:17*

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains

“And THE EARTH OPENED HER MOUTH, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive INTO THE PIT, and the EARTH CLOSED UPON THEM:” Numbers 16:32-33

I’m not sure what your trying to do here. Are you stating what you think the Jewish concept of Hell should be?

 

[deanarrca]

I’m not sure what your trying to do here. Are you stating what you think the Jewish concept of Hell should be?

No I was just pointing out similarities-
Actually I don’t think you have stated what the Jewish concept of Hell is and how it is different from the Catholic position (Actually, if you have I might have missed it because I haven’t read all the posts in this thread the so far)

I was reading this off a Jewish site on the After Life
religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm

Judgment
Traditional Judaism includes belief in both heaven and hell, as we will see below. How is one’s destination decided? The School of Shammai offered this description:

There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]… [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]
The school of Hillel suggested a more merciful view, in which the middle group are sent directly to Gan Eden (Heaven) instead of Gehinnom after death. Rabbi Hanina added that all who go down to Gehinnom will go up again, except adulterers, those who put their fellows to shame in public, and those who call their fellows by an obnoxious name [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Metzia 58b].

The Talmud teaches that all Israel will have a share in Olam Ha-Ba, but makes some notable exceptions:

All Israelites have a share in the world-to-come… [However], these are they that have no share in the world-to-come: one who says there is no resurrection of the dead prescribed in the Torah, and that the Torah is not from Heaven, and an Epicurean. (Sanhedrin 10:1)
General Jewish belief is that one need not be Jewish to enjoy Heaven. “Moses Maimonides, echoing the Tosefta to Sanhedrin, maintained that the pious of all the nations of the world have a portion in the world-to-come [Mishneh Torah, Repentance 3:5].”

Actually from my reading from different sites not just the one above, it actually appears that the Jewish understanding of Gehenna is actually more like our Purgatory than Hell. A place of final purification for a period of time before entering Olam HaBa/Heaven

 

[chosen_people]

No I was just pointing out similarities-
Actually I don’t think you have stated what the Jewish concept of Hell is and how it is different from the Catholic position (Actually, if you have I might have missed it because I haven’t read all the posts in this thread the so far)

I was reading this off a Jewish site on the After Life
religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm

Actually from my reading from different sites not just the one above, it actually appears that the Jewish understanding of Gehenna is actually more like our Purgatory than Hell. A place of final purification for a period of time before entering Olam HaBa/Heaven

You are correct that the Jewish concept is similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory and it is limited to a maximum period of twelve months.

 

[bobzills]

There is a difference between rejecting God and rejecting Torah, at least in the context of the midrash that we are discussing. .

Where does anyone find in the history of China, in the history of Vietnam, in the history of India, in the history of Africa, in the history of Persia, in the history of the Arabs any support for your claim that each one of them specifically rejected Torah? When exactly did they do this, and who among them specifically rejected Torah? Was it each Chinese individually who rejected Torah, or was it one of their prophets or leaders? If the latter, which leader was it who rejected Torah? Similarly for India, and for Persia? And why were not other Chinese asked and given a chance? Why did God leave out all of the Chinese people?

 

[PetersKeys]

No I was just pointing out similarities-
Actually I don’t think you have stated what the Jewish concept of Hell is and how it is different from the Catholic position (Actually, if you have I might have missed it because I haven’t read all the posts in this thread the so far)

I was reading this off a Jewish site on the After Life
religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm

Actually from my reading from different sites not just the one above, it actually appears that the Jewish understanding of Gehenna is actually more like our Purgatory than Hell. A place of final purification for a period of time before entering Olam HaBa/Heaven

I don’t know. I think they viewed Abrahams Bosom as kinda a purgatory, not Gehenna. Gehenna was viewed as awful in the eyes of Jews and was pretty much Hades/Hell to them

Here is Flavis Josephus(a pious Jew who existed during the same of Christ) concerning Hades:

*1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things
they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are
detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the
world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the
light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that
in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there
must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a
place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as
guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments,
agreeable to every one’s behavior and manners.

1. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake
   of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto
   been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God,
   in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon
   all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to
   God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain
   operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be
   adjudged to this everlasting punishment as having been the
   causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an
   incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed
   confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust
   are confined.
2. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we
   believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when
   those pass through that are conducted down by the angels
   appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just
   are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the
   angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in
   which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not
   constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the
   good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new
   enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and
   esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there
   is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are
   any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just,
   which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest
   and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region.
   This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
3. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left
   hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with
   a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are
   sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten
   them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still
   downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag
   them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are
   hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand
   clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of
   this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of
   fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future
   judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but
   where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the
   just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large
   is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath
   compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is
   unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

This shows that no one is in hell right now. But it shows that Hades does have a compartment to it that is reserved for judgement which is everlasting punishment for the wicked after judgement.*

 

[Valke2]

Where does anyone find in the history of China, in the history of Vietnam, in the history of India, in the history of Africa, in the history of Persia, in the history of the Arabs any support for your claim that each one of them specifically rejected Torah? When exactly did they do this, and who among them specifically rejected Torah? Was it each Chinese individually who rejected Torah, or was it one of their prophets or leaders? If the latter, which leader was it who rejected Torah? Similarly for India, and for Persia? And why were not other Chinese asked and given a chance? Why did God leave out all of the Chinese people?

A Midrash is not to be taken as a historical fact. It is a STORY, the purpose of which is to explain or expound on a particular teaching of Torah.

 

[HashemEchad]

Dear Jewish Friend,

The fact that you are even here in these forums would seem to indicate one of two possibilities. Either you wish to debate Catholics because you feel that we are “broken” or there is something deep inside of you that knows that Catholicism is true. Either way, I personally will not attempt to convert you (I promise). That is for the Holy Spirit to do. The seeds have already been planted in your heart or you wouldn’t be here. Just know my friend that if I can help you find the answers to the questions that you have, I am here and willing to try. Shalom my friend.

Well, I’m Jewish and I’ll tell you why I’m on this forum:

My mother (who died in March) was raised Catholic but converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944. When she was still alive, I’d asked her questions about her childhood as a Catholic, and there were some legends she’d told me about that I had always wondered about, regarding the origin of those legends.

So, in March I did a websearch to try to find out the answers, and that was how I found this site. I stuck around because I saw all the threads designed to convert Jews to Catholicism. Since the 1970s I have been a volunteer in the Jewish community as a countermissionary, that is, someone who works to get/keep Jewish children out of cults and nonJewish religions. Because of this work, I am very familiar with Christian beliefs, and the beliefs of other religions as well.

I have to admit, another reason I decided to stay was the threads about the Spanish Inquisition. In the 1980s, while working with a cousin who is a genealogist, we discovered that my mother’s family descends from conversos, or Spanish Jews forced to become Catholics in the Middle Ages, but who kept practicing Judaism secretly. This explained why my mother and her family, though Catholic, practiced many Jewish customs, and perhaps also what led my mother to eventually convert (back) to Judaism.

So, speaking for myself only, that is why I am here.

 

[HashemEchad]

You are correct that the Jewish concept is similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory and it is limited to a maximum period of twelve months.

While its true it is limited in theory to 12 months, in practice Jews mourn for 11 months, because we do not want to make the assumption that the deceased was “bad” enough to deserve the full 12 months.

 

[bobzills]

While its true it is limited in theory to 12 months, in practice Jews mourn for 11 months, because we do not want to make the assumption that the deceased was “bad” enough to deserve the full 12 months.

Is there time in the afterlife? Are there clocks and calendars?

 

[chosen_people]

Is there time in the afterlife? Are there clocks and calendars?

A concept of certain eternal devine punishment for transgressions would negate the Jewish basic concept of man’s free will and be intellectually unsound.

 

[Valke2]

On the other hand, someeone like HItler not being punished for more than 11 or 12 months would negate the concept of Divine Justice.