Jews--Christians--Muslims...same God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter aidanbradypop
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
SAVINGRACE said:
Why are we even attempting to argue this Mystery? Our mere minds cannot begin to fathom who God is?
Click to expand...
Not only is God unknowable, but ineffable. That is why it is pointless to argue about the nature of God.

Karen Armstrong in her book, “A History of God”, writes the following:
"The Roman Catholicism of my childhood was a rather frightening creed. James Joyce got it right in Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man: “I listened to my share of hellfire sermons. In fact Hell seemed a more potent reality than God, because it was something that I could grasp imaginatively. God, on the other hand, was a somewhat shadowy figure, defined in intellectual abstractions rather than images.”

When I was eight years old, I had to memorize this catechism answer to the question, “What is God?”: “God is the Supreme Spirit, Who alone exists of Himself and is infinite in all perfections.” Not surprisingly, it meant little to me, and I am bound to say that it still leaves me cold. It has always seemed a singularly arid, pompous and arrogant definition. Since writing this book, however, I have come to believe that it is also correct."
 
SAVINGRACE said:
The important thing for Catholics at least is that all souls (regardless of belief or non-belief) are ultimately at the mercy of ‘God’ whether he is called Allah or G_d.

Believe it or not a Muslim/Jew or non-believer may get to Heaven and some of us christians may not.

A Jew/Muslim/atheist may follow or live the ‘christian’ life more than a so-called christian.

Why are we even attempting to argue this Mystery? Our mere minds cannot begin to fathom who God is?
Click to expand...
🙂
 
The Quran is very clear and it states: Sura 109.2

I do not worship what you worship,

and you do not worship what I worship.

I will never worship what you worship,

and you will never worship what I worship.

You to your religion, me to my religion.

The way I read this, regardless of what CCC-841 states, that Muslims, Christians & Jews do not worship the same God.
 
jakasaki said:
The Quran is very clear and it states: Sura 109.2

I do not worship what you worship,

and you do not worship what I worship.

I will never worship what you worship,

and you will never worship what I worship.

You to your religion, me to my religion.

The way I read this, regardless of what CCC-841 states, that Muslims, Christians & Jews do not worship the same God.
Click to expand...
What is the context please? Of the quoted sura. Also, which translation? Thanks!
 
You have taken this entirely out of context. Muhammad was addressing pagans, idol worshipers in the region at that time. They had asked him to join them in worshiping their idols. This was his response to them.

There was a group of idol worshipers that had aligned themselves with Islam. He was telling them that they are not of the same religion. As long as they worshiped idols they could not regard themselves as true Muslims. He even identified the particular group of idol worshipers he was addressing by referencing them as “kafirun”.

It is totally incorrect to take a passage from the Koran out of context and use it to define a people in a manner to prove a point which is incorrect. It is no different than quoting a passage of the Bible out of context. We do not have to see the nation of Islam as also being the children of God in order for this to be the Truth. God makes this determination. To repeatedly deny God that which is His alone is to grieve Him and is wholly against all that we were taught by Jesus.
 
jakasaki said:
The Quran is very clear and it states: Sura 109.2

I do not worship what you worship,

and you do not worship what I worship.

I will never worship what you worship,

and you will never worship what I worship.

You to your religion, me to my religion.

The way I read this, regardless of what CCC-841 states, that Muslims, Christians & Jews do not worship the same God.
Click to expand...
You have taken this entirely out of context. Muhammad was addressing pagans, idol worshipers in the region at that time. They had asked him to join them in worshiping their idols. This was his response to them.

There was a group of idol worshipers that had aligned themselves with Islam. He was telling them that they are not of the same religion. As long as they worshiped idols they could not regard themselves as true Muslims. He even identified the particular group of idol worshipers he was addressing by referencing them as “kafirun”.

It is totally incorrect to take a passage from the Qur’ran out of context and use it to define a people in an incorrect manner in order to prove a point which furthers misunderstanding and hatred. It is no different than quoting a passage of the Bible out of context. We do not have to see the nation of Islam as also being the children of God in order for this to be the Truth. God makes this determination. To repeatedly deny God that which is His alone is to grieve Him and is wholly against all that we were taught by Jesus.

There are a great deal of verses in the Qur’an that condemn polytheism in any form. The verses count it as the worst thing and consider it as an unforgivable sin. This is only one of them.

Additionally, it is a matter of common sense, what other God could they possibly be worshiping? There is but one God.
 
jakasaki said:
The Quran is very clear and it states: Sura 109.2

I do not worship what you worship,

and you do not worship what I worship.

I will never worship what you worship,

and you will never worship what I worship.

You to your religion, me to my religion.

The way I read this, regardless of what CCC-841 states, that Muslims, Christians & Jews do not worship the same God.
Click to expand...
The CCC states Muslims, who “profess to hold to the faith of Abraham… with us adore the one merciful God”…“salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”.

**When does the CCC state we “Worship” the same God? The CCC applies the words; Those Muslims who “profess to hold to the faith of Abraham”, with us “adore the one merciful God”, “salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”.

When a Muslim moves away from the professed faith of Abraham, we no longer adore the one merciful God that is not of Abraham’s faith. It is only when a Muslim professes’ to hold to the faith of Abraham is when “with us” adore the one merciful God.

When do Muslims move away from the professed faith of Abraham? That is the question. Answer; Immediately after recognizing God is one and God is our Creator. After this profession by Muslims we part ways in revelation of God, and God’s revelation to man are distinct and different in doctrine, faith, interpretation and understanding of the history of salvation.
**
Yet those who acknowledge the Creator, the plan of salvation includes them.

Salvation includes those who acknowledge the Creator, nothing about worshipping the same God here as you appear to be implying.

peace be with you
 
Why didn’t you quote this passage?

Surah 4:136 O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Here Muslims are being instructed to believe that all scripture is inspired. While they do believe that the Bible has been corrupted by man, they see it as having originally been inspired. In fact, some believe that this requires them to read scripture that came before the Qur’ran.

What I don’t get is why people want so badly to believe that Muslims are worshiping a different God. Of what benefit is this wrong minded belief to anyone?
 
You are still taking the passages out of context. It stands to reason that, if they regard the Bible as “corrupted” and the revelations given Mohamed as a means of correcting the situation, they must first believe that the Word given to Moses and the other prophets was, as given, the Truth. You can’t see something as corrupted unless you believe that at some point it was un-corrupted. If they see the Word as having relayed the Truth at some point, they believe in the God that gave the Word as God.

See: biblestudyresources.org/html/Muslims%20read%20the%20Bible.htm

Once again, the passage you cited was directed to Pagans that worshiped idols. It was written for a very specific purpose.

alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/english/quran/TheLight/english/quran/light/109/109_1-6.htm

I still don’t get why any man thinks it is correct to deny God’s love for and by another people and how, that person can still believe that they are obeying the Word of God. Quite frankly, it isn’t any one’s concern how another chooses to worship. What they must first do is determine how they themselves worship. All else is extraneous to that individual. The deeds, loves, works and worshiping of another will neither condemn or save you.
 
Little_Star said:
You have taken this entirely out of context. Muhammad was addressing pagans, idol worshipers in the region at that time. They had asked him to join them in worshiping their idols. This was his response to them.

~ snip
Click to expand...
I posted the tafsir for you review. Perhaps you didn’t open the link to read it.

It is very lengthy so I only grabbed one section explaining the Sura:

[1-6] Say: "O disbelievers!

1 I do not worship those whom you worship.

2 Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

3 Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

4 For you is your religion and for me is mine."5

1A few points in this verse are particularly noteworthy:

(1)Although the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) has been commanded to tell this to the disbelievers plainly, the theme that follows makes it explicit that every believer should tell the disbelievers plainly what has been said in the following verses; so much so that the person who has just believed and repented of kufr is also bound to express similarly his disgust with and disapproval of the creed and rites of worship and gods of kufr. Thus, though the first addressee of the word qul (say) is the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) himself, the command is not restricted to him alone but it reaches every believer through him.

(2)The word "kafir’ is no abuse, which might have been used for the addressees of this verse, but it implies the one who refuses to believe, or is an unbeliever. As against it the word “mu min” is used for the believer. Therefore, the Holy Prophet’s saying, by Allah’s command, “O disbelievers, … ', in fact, means: "O you, who have refused to believe in my apostleship and in the teachings brought by me.” Likewise. when a believer uses this word, it will imply those who do not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings),

(3) The word used is “O kafirs” and not “O mushriks”; therefore, the addressees are not only the mushriks but all those people who do not acknowledge Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings) as Allah’s Messenger and the teachings and guidance brought by him as the teaching and guidance given by Allah Himself, whether they be Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only.

This chunk is taken from the link I provided above.
 
👍
jakasaki said:
I posted the tafsir for you review. Perhaps you didn’t open the link to read it.

It is very lengthy so I only grabbed one section explaining the Sura:

[1-6] Say: "O disbelievers!

1 I do not worship those whom you worship.

2 Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

3 Nor am I a worshiper of those whom you have worshiped. Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship.

4 For you is your religion and for me is mine."5

1A few points in this verse are particularly noteworthy:

(1)Although the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) has been commanded to tell this to the disbelievers plainly, the theme that follows makes it explicit that every believer should tell the disbelievers plainly what has been said in the following verses; so much so that the person who has just believed and repented of kufr is also bound to express similarly his disgust with and disapproval of the creed and rites of worship and gods of kufr. Thus, though the first addressee of the word qul (say) is the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) himself, the command is not restricted to him alone but it reaches every believer through him.

(2)The word "kafir’ is no abuse, which might have been used for the addressees of this verse, but it implies the one who refuses to believe, or is an unbeliever. As against it the word “mu min” is used for the believer. Therefore, the Holy Prophet’s saying, by Allah’s command, “O disbelievers, … ', in fact, means: "O you, who have refused to believe in my apostleship and in the teachings brought by me.” Likewise. when a believer uses this word, it will imply those who do not believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings),

(3) The word used is “O kafirs” and not “O mushriks”; therefore, the addressees are not only the mushriks but all those people who do not acknowledge Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings) as Allah’s Messenger and the teachings and guidance brought by him as the teaching and guidance given by Allah Himself, whether they be Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only.

This chunk is taken from the link I provided above.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Well, what I have read and cited and have been told by Muslims contradicts you and your source. However, that is not the real point I am trying to make.

What does it matter? How does it affect your faith? Does it? Does it affect the respect and love you give and feel for our Muslim brothers? Or, do you think it gives you the right to proclaim them all sinners and damned? Does it make you feel good and righteous to believe this way? Does it lead you to think that you are better than they are in any way? If it does, you are not following how Jesus commended us to live with our neighbors.

I am not going to change your opinion and I am fine with that. Nor, shall you change mine. We are commanded to love everyone of all faiths, to love and respect them. There is one God and to whom Muslims pray is within His purview, no matter what we as individuals think.
 
Little_Star said:
Well, what I have read and cited and have been told by Muslims contradicts you and your source. However, that is not the real point I am trying to make.

~ snip

.
Click to expand...
My source is not mine -

It’s an Islamic site - it has the entire Quran with several translations as well as Arabic.

Open the link of searchtruth.com and you’ll see it’s 100% Islamic.
 
Little_Star said:
Well, what I have read and cited and have been told by Muslims contradicts you and your source. However, that is not the real point I am trying to make.

What does it matter? How does it affect your faith? Does it? Does it affect the respect and love you give and feel for our Muslim brothers? Or, do you think it gives you the right to proclaim them all sinners and damned? Does it make you feel good and righteous to believe this way? Does it lead you to think that you are better than they are in any way? If it does, you are not following how Jesus commended us to live with our neighbors.

I am not going to change your opinion and I am fine with that. Nor, shall you change mine. We are commanded to love everyone of all faiths, to love and respect them. There is one God and to whom Muslims pray is within His purview, no matter what we as individuals think.
Click to expand...
You stated I took the Sura out of context it was only for the pagans - your quote
Once again, the passage you cited was directed to Pagans that worshiped idols. It was written for a very specific purpose.
Click to expand...
I posted the tafsir and it clearly states that it is not only for the pagans, but for:
…whether they be **Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only. **
Click to expand...
 
jakasaki said:
You stated I took the Sura out of context it was only for the pagans - your quote

I posted the tafsir and it clearly states that it is not only for the pagans, but for:
Click to expand...
Really, to be truthful, you can search, and I did, a number of sites and they will tell you something different. You can do the same within the Bible depending on the denomination. What it really gets down to is that their faith originated with Abraham, as did Christianity. They say we worship idols and pray to Jesus who they believe to be an ordinary man. They can go to Bible sites and find where it says that Jesus is God to support their belief that we worship a God other than the one of Abraham.

You could argue this is not correct to them and they will throw our own words back at us. What difference does it make? Why do you want to believe they worship a different God?

Exactly how many Gods are there to be worshiped? When they pray to the God of Abraham, they are praying to the same God we pray to. Truth is Truth and man can theorize and debate who is right and who is wrong into eternity. It wont change the Truth. There is but one God. Man has caused so much pain and suffering over this. The truth is we have far more in common with them than we do differences. For some reason, folks don’t want to accept that They just want to look for ways and reasons to condemn others. This is wrong.

So, please why do you keep insisting on this? How does it benefit you and your faith and your growth in your faith?
 
Little_Star said:
What it really gets down to is that their faith originated with Abraham, as did Christianity. They say we worship idols and pray to Jesus who they believe to be an ordinary man. They can go to Bible sites and find where it says that Jesus is God to support their belief that we worship a God other than the one of Abraham
Click to expand...
.
Why is it that we have to wait for the Gospel of John, which was written about 65 years after the crucifixion, to have this proclamation that Jesus is God? Why has this not appeared succinctly in the earlier gospels? They are synoptic in that they show similarities, to the extent that scholars have intimated that they may have used the same source material.

“The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are referred to specifically as the Synoptic Gospels because they include many of the same stories, often in the same sequence, and similar wording.[1][2][3] This degree of parallelism in content, narrative arrangement, language, and sentence structures can only be accounted for by literary interdependence. Many scholars believe that these gospels share the same point of view and are clearly linked.[4] [3]”

According to the majority viewpoint, Mark was the first gospel written. Matthew and Luke then used Mark as a source, as well as a hypothetical sayings gospel known as Q. Matthew and Luke also included unique material, and the sources for this material are designated M and L, respectively. The Synoptic Gospels are the primary source for historical information about Jesus.5][6][7]

Apocryphal gospels, as well as the canonical Gospel of John, differ greatly from the Synoptic Gospels."

1.^ New Testament Theology by Paul Haffner 2008 ISBN 88-902268-0-3 page 135
2.^ A Guide to the Gospels by W. Graham Scroggie 1995 ISBN 0-8254-3744-X p. 128
3.^ a b “synoptic”. Oxford English Dictionary (3rd ed.). Oxford University Press. September 2005.
4.^ F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingston, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford University Press, 1989 p. 1333
5.^ Grant, Robert M., “A Historical Introduction to the New Testament” (Harper and Row, 1963) religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=1116&C=1230
6.^ Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses, p. 117.
7.^ Ramsay, BRDTNT, p. 222
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top