Jews in heaven?

[PilgrimToChrist]

However, this does not exclude those who, through no fault of their own, have never been exposed to authentic Catholic teaching and don’t recognize the Catholic Church to be the one which Christ founded. This is called “invincible ignorance.”

I also wanted to clarify that invincible ignorance, by itself, is not salvific. What invincible ignorance does, in regards to any sin, is eliminate culpability. This means that someone is not culpable for sins against the faith in regards to divine revelation. Of course, they are still culpable for seeking to understand God through natural religion and law.
Rom 1:20:

For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Everyone is given sufficient graces for their salvation at some point in their lives and they have to respond to these graces in order to be saved.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

… are we here only for our own personal journeys?

Or are we here to help guide others to the Father?

Personally the concern that others might be damned to Hell burdens me greatly and leaves me overwhelmed with sadness at times, as I’m sure it does others. I can’t imagine going about life concerned only with my own salvation and caring not if my family and friends are in communion with God.

We have to concern ourselves with our own salvation first, otherwise we will be unable to help others.
Mt 7:3-5:

And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

The only real way to help the world is to help ourselves first, otherwise, we will be useless.

 

[CradleCath]

I was being quite sarcastic. Sorry you missed that.

In fact I hoped to address the underlying anti-semiticism still held by some “Christians.”
Maybe you’re unaware of the anti-semiticism still promoted by some in subtle ways?

Catharina, I know that your post wasn’t directed at me, but I was NOT aware that anti-semiticism was still present within the Catholic Church until I came upon this thread. My only hope here is that I believe that many of these new posters who do not believe in the FULL teaching of Baptism of Desire & Baptism of Blood are not really Catholic as they claim, but members of splinter groups like “Feeneyites”, sedevacantists, etc., etc.

I really think that I’m right about this, as most of their quotes & ideas come from the “Most Holy Family Monastery”, St. Benedict’s Center featuring the Dimond Brothers, sedevacantists, etc., etc.

However, innocent posters will come upon CA & this thread & think that we traditional Catholics, Latin Rite…believe this stuff. They will think that the Catholic Church actually teaches this". It also causes Novus Ordo Catholics to think that we are all crackpots.

I am a traditional Catholic, Latin Rite & my Church does not teach that non-Catholics of any kind, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, even Muslims will spend eternity in Hell because they aren’t Physically Catholic.

 

[catharina]

Catharina, I know that your post wasn’t directed at me, but I was NOT aware that anti-semiticism was still present within the Catholic Church until I came upon this thread. My only hope here is that I believe that many of these new posters who do not believe in the FULL teaching of Baptism of Desire & Baptism of Blood are not really Catholic as they claim, but members of splinter groups like “Feeneyites”, sedevacantists, etc., etc.

I really think that I’m right about this, as most of their quotes & ideas come from the “Most Holy Family Monastery”, St. Benedict’s Center featuring the Dimond Brothers, sedevacantists, etc., etc.

However, innocent posters will come upon CA & this thread & think that we traditional Catholics, Latin Rite…believe this stuff. They will think that the Catholic Church actually teaches this". It also causes Novus Ordo Catholics to think that we are all crackpots.

I am a traditional Catholic, Latin Rite & my Church does not teach that non-Catholics of any kind, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, even Muslims will spend eternity in Hell because they aren’t Physically Catholic.

Thank you. Lovely exposition.

What is more shocking to me is learning that there are clusters of “Catholics” who are determined to “teach” that abortion can be just fine at times, and that birth control is no big deal except in Catholic marriages.

I think I’ve aged forty years in the last few months of reading posts at CA. I’ll guess too that such posters (as these) are not heavily influenced, by schism on the right, but by relativism and lukewarmness on the left.

 

[ErichK]

This is just my personal opinion but as the Jews are God’s Chosen People - I think it’s fairly obvious where they’re going.

Considering all the bad stuff they got into in the Old Testament and yet were STILL forgiven… I think they’ll be okay.

Reading a lot of the responses on this thread, especially this one, strike a chord.

How can any of you call yourselves Christian and believe in the outright salvation of the Jews who don’t convert and accept the ways of those that murdered the very Son of God, let alone curse the very name of Christ and the Christian Church as being something false and evil? Christ’s existence here on earth made Israel become the invisible Church, and all who accepted Christ became the chosen people of God. This is why it was the New Testament - partaking of the body and blood of Christ, and not spilling that of an Ox or cow, which is what the Old Testament was. It goes far beyond just being titles of two books.

This isn’t anti-Semitism. There’s a very large difference between downright hating the Jewish people and between rejecting them as the chosen people. I guarantee that if any of you go up to an Orthodox or Conservative Jew and ask them if Christians will go to heaven, they’ll laugh in your face.

Should we be intolerant of the Jews? No. Should we force their conversions? No. Should we speak evil about them? No. Should we treat them as we would want to be treated and pray that they may someday convert? Yes.

I am deeply hope that the all Jews may someday accept Christ as their savior so that we can bridge a large religious gap.

In the meantime, I suggest straying away from Sola Scriptura.

Does this mean I believe all non-Catholics will go to hell? No - but I do know that cursing the name of Christ and his Church won’t get one to heaven in a heartbeat.

 

[choy]

I was being quite sarcastic. Sorry you missed that.

In fact I hoped to address the underlying anti-semiticism still held by some “Christians.”
Maybe you’re unaware of the anti-semiticism still promoted by some in subtle ways?

sorry i missed it
bigots use anything to justify their beliefs. the use of Christian faith of course is nothing new. when someone, who’s non-Catholic, asks me if Catholics hates Jews i always tell him/her, “how can we? Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. if we hate Jews, we hate the people who founded our Church”

 

[kingal86]

If you are a Jew, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Mormon, etc. and you are saved, you are not saved on account of your Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Mormonism, you are saved on account of Jesus Christ. That you don’t recognize Jesus Christ is irrelevant.

I think CS Lewis gave a good example of this in the final Narnia book, when a good soldier from the anti-Narnia forces was saved despite worshipping another god (or rather a demon, though this soldier didn’t know that), not Aslan. Aslan said something like, “Any good you did in the name of this false god, you did in my name”.

 

[catharina]

sorry i missed it
bigots use anything to justify their beliefs. the use of Christian faith of course is nothing new. when someone, who’s non-Catholic, asks me if Catholics hates Jews i always tell him/her, “how can we? Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. if we hate Jews, we hate the people who founded our Church”

Great response.

 

[CradleCath]

It may be of interest to note that after years of intense negotiations, Israel is on the verge of signing an agreement with several Protestant sects under which Jews will be allowed to enter heaven on the condition that they do not attempt to join the country club.

:bowdown2::bowdown2:

LOVE IT~~

You think that they’d allow us Catholic in on that??? I mean the Country Club thing.

 

[catharina]

Reading a lot of the responses on this thread, especially this one, strike a chord.

How can any of you call yourselves Christian and believe in the outright salvation of the Jews who don’t convert and accept the ways of those that murdered the very Son of God, let alone curse the very name of Christ and the Christian Church as being something false and evil? Christ’s existence here on earth made Israel become the invisible Church, and all who accepted Christ became the chosen people of God. This is why it was the New Testament - partaking of the body and blood of Christ, and not spilling that of an Ox or cow, which is what the Old Testament was. It goes far beyond just being titles of two books.

This isn’t anti-Semitism. There’s a very large difference between downright hating the Jewish people and between rejecting them as the chosen people. I guarantee that if any of you go up to an Orthodox or Conservative Jew and ask them if Christians will go to heaven, they’ll laugh in your face.

Should we be intolerant of the Jews? No. Should we force their conversions? No. Should we speak evil about them? No. Should we treat them as we would want to be treated and pray that they may someday convert? Yes.

I am deeply hope that the all Jews may someday accept Christ as their savior so that we can bridge a large religious gap.

In the meantime, I suggest straying away from Sola Scriptura.

Does this mean I believe all non-Catholics will go to hell? No - but I do know that cursing the name of Christ and his Church won’t get one to heaven in a heartbeat.

You seem to have no knowledge of the facts.

All who enter heaven do so through the sacrifices of Jesus Christ.
No where is there insistence that this must be “proclaimed” by each prior to death.

 

[Lycorth]

You seem to have no knowledge of the facts.

All who enter heaven do so through the sacrifices of Jesus Christ.
No where is there insistence that this must be “proclaimed” by each prior to death.

Belief in Christ is required for salvation. This concept is found in the New Testament as well as in Church teaching.

Presuming Jews are automatically saved because of their ethnicity is racism.

 

[ErichK]

Belief in Christ is required for salvation. This concept is found in the New Testament as well as in Church teaching.

Presuming Jews are automatically saved because of their ethnicity is racism.

Excellent response.

 

[chosen_people]

Reading a lot of the responses on this thread, especially this one, strike a chord.

How can any of you call yourselves Christian and believe in the outright salvation of the Jews who don’t convert and accept the ways of those that murdered the very Son of God, let alone curse the very name of Christ and the Christian Church as being something false and evil? Christ’s existence here on earth made Israel become the invisible Church, and all who accepted Christ became the chosen people of God. This is why it was the New Testament - partaking of the body and blood of Christ, and not spilling that of an Ox or cow, which is what the Old Testament was. It goes far beyond just being titles of two books.

This isn’t anti-Semitism. There’s a very large difference between downright hating the Jewish people and between rejecting them as the chosen people.** I guarantee that if any of you go up to an Orthodox or Conservative Jew and ask them if Christians will go to heaven, they’ll laugh in your face.**
Should we be intolerant of the Jews? No. Should we force their conversions? No. Should we speak evil about them? No. Should we treat them as we would want to be treated and pray that they may someday convert? Yes.

I am deeply hope that the all Jews may someday accept Christ as their savior so that we can bridge a large religious gap.

In the meantime, I suggest straying away from Sola Scriptura.

Does this mean I believe all non-Catholics will go to hell? No - but I do know that cursing the name of Christ and his Church won’t get one to heaven in a heartbeat.

This is the Jewish response you will hear to the question “do Christians go to heaven”

Judaism teaches that it easier for the Christian than for the Jew to get into the world to come. There is only one God and that we are all His children. For example, in the book of Yonah (Jonah) the people redeemed are Gentiles. God judges people by their actions. That is how Christians are judged, not by whether they have reached the point where they can grasp Torah in its widest sense and whether they can understand the concept of God without giving Him human form. A Jew who adopts the beliefs of the Christian will not get to the world to come. However, a Christian following the seven Noahide commandments most certainly will. As for “cursing the name of christ”, it would be a meaningless gesture as your messiah has absolutely no meaning or standing from our perspective. Do you start your day cursing Buddha? However, we are a little sensitive about being persecuted. Presenting Jews as people “cursing the name of christ and his Church” may, whether intentional or not, engender anti-Semitism.

 

[catharina]

Excellent response.

Belief in Christ is required for salvation. This concept is found in the New Testament as well as in Church teaching.

Presuming Jews are automatically saved because of their ethnicity is racism.

Gentlemen, you are mistaken.

All those who enter heaven do so by the power of Jesus Christ and He Alone.
Do some enter heaven never having heard the Name of Jesus. YES.
They have lived lives of good ness to the best of their ability.
Desoite their ignorance, they may still be saved through the power of Christ.

They learn His name after living their lives.
I learned the above in my first grade Religion class, 1951.

It is what the Catholic Church teaches -
and if you’ve never learned of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Fire,
please go now and educate yourselves.

What you are supporting is heretical.

 

[catharina]

This is the Jewish response you will hear to the question “do Christians go to heaven”

Judaism teaches that it easier for the Christian than for the Jew to get into the world to come. There is only one God and that we are all His children. For example, in the book of Yonah (Jonah) the people redeemed are Gentiles. God judges people by their actions. That is how Christians are judged, not by whether they have reached the point where they can grasp Torah in its widest sense and whether they can understand the concept of God without giving Him human form. A Jew who adopts the beliefs of the Christian will not get to the world to come. However, a Christian following the seven Noahide commandments most certainly will. As for “cursing the name of christ”, it would be a meaningless gesture as your messiah has absolutely no meaning or standing from our perspective. Do you start your day cursing Buddha? However, we are a little sensitive about being persecuted. Presenting Jews as people “cursing the name of christ and his Church” may, whether intentional or not, engender anti-Semitism.

Thank you.

 

[Lycorth]

Gentlemen, you are mistaken.

All those who enter heaven do so by the power of Jesus Christ and He Alone.
Do some enter heaven never having heard the Name of Jesus. YES.
They have lived lives of good ness to the best of their ability.
Desoite their ignorance, they may still be saved through the power of Christ.

They learn His name after living their lives.
I learned the above in my first grade Religion class, 1951.

It is what the Catholic Church teaches -
and if you’ve never learned of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Fire,
please go now and educate yourselves.

What you are supporting is heretical.

If you are looking for heresy, look no further than your non-Catholic and wholly man-made opinion that Jews can merit salvation without Christ.

I don’t care when you were taught that, it is wrong and never has been a teaching of the Church.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#839

 

[Lycorth]

Being ignorant of Christ and His truth is one thing - claiming that Jews merit Heaven because of their ethnicity is quite another. That is the heresy.

 

[catharina]

If you are looking for heresy, look no further than your non-Catholic and wholly man-made opinion that Jews can merit salvation without Christ.

I don’t care when you were taught that, it is wrong and never has been a teaching of the Church.

My dear, your ignorance is aoppalling.

First, I never said that Jews can merit heaven without Chrust.
That is the OPPOSITE of what I said.

I said that ALL who merit heaven do so, through the powerful salvation of JESUS CHRIST.

Do all need to KNOW that?

NO.

Learn - by memory if necessary:

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16). 


[webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bi9gSBzFPjMJ:www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm+catechism+of+the+catholic+church,+ccc+1281+baptism+of+desire&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bi9gSBzFPjMJ:www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm+catechism+of+the+catholic+church,+ccc+1281+baptism+of+desire&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





Baptism of desire (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of
desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum
baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on
charity).
	
The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not
possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the
same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying
power. Luke 7, 47: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved
much." John 14, 21: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and
I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Luke 23, 43 • " This ,
day thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

**The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In
the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism,
St.  Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed?
Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has
absolved him "** (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find
that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is
lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem
conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not
permit the celebration of the mystery , of Baptism "

Your ignorance of Catholic teaching is both frightening and disrespectful.

What was taught to me and to all in the 1950s
was taught by St. Ambrose in the 4th Century.

 

[catharina]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#839

Thanks, Mary Gail.
I doubt he’ll “hear” either of us.

Some people LOVE un-truth.