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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I think it is just nitpicking, being free of the evil inclination every person was born with since Adam, is being saved from the original sin of Adam. You can call it what you want though.
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chosen_people
Guest
The quotes and misinterpretations are from the antisemitic book by Father I. B. Pranaitis “The talmud unmasked”. You may find his work along with that other great antisemitic book “The protocols of the elders of Zion” on umpteen antiJewish websites on the internet. The people who bring these quotes are fans of these websites and also appear in every thread on this forum having to do with Jews to take the opportunity to explain their views about the Jews. If you enjoy this kind of thing may I point you to the thread on this forum on the truth behind the killing of little gentile children by Jews? I personally shouldn’t have a lot of time to deal with this as apparently I am busy controlling along with my coreligionists all the money and banks and power in the world and deciding where Bush should send his troops to fight for Israel and the Jews and deciding how to undermine Christianity for good Christians everywhere.
If you are interested see as a starting point:
adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf
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Miles_Mariae
Guest
Your information is appreciated, and I’m glad someone addressed this issue because I found the quotations rather alarming. I hope I will eventually have time to learn about this in depth.The quotes and misinterpretations are from the antisemitic book by Father I. B. Pranaitis “The talmud unmasked”. You may find his work along with that other great antisemitic book “The protocols of the elders of Zion” on umpteen antiJewish websites on the internet. The people who bring these quotes are fans of these websites and also appear in every thread on this forum having to do with Jews to take the opportunity to explain their views about the Jews. If you enjoy this kind of thing may I point you to the thread on this forum on the truth behind the killing of little gentile children by Jews? I personally shouldn’t have a lot of time to deal with this as apparently I am busy controlling along with my coreligionists all the money and banks and power in the world and deciding where Bush should send his troops to fight for Israel and the Jews and deciding how to undermine Christianity for good Christians everywhere.
If you are interested see as a starting point:
adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf
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chosen_people
Guest
It is anything but nitpicking. The concept of original sin, that we are not born innocent, is central to Christianity in every aspect: the death of your god-messiah, baptism, salvation, last rites etc. On the other hand it has absolutely no place in Judaism. Free choice from a point of total innocence is not the same as being born carrying a sin.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Jeremiah says you carry it, the sour grape Adam ate that puts your teeth on edge and makes you die a physical death. Then it’s gone when you have salvation in New Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:29-31 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
So Jesus brings that New Covenant, all this is salvation for the Jews and Gentiles, no more sin and death when God’s Laws are written on our hearts, when Satan/yetzer hara is defeated. And no more sour grape of death from Adam.
Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
So the prophets should have a place in Judaism if they don’t.
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chosen_people
Guest
The thread here is about Jewish attitudes towards non-Jews. If you understood my previous posts you will also understand that I as a Jew have no want or need to try and convince you that your religious beliefs are incorrect. I am quite aware that you believe the Tanach supports your religious beliefs.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
It’s not so much convincing, just explaining how it is that God writing His Laws on your hearts so that you obey Torah perfectly and don’t sin anymore isn’t giving you salvation from the yetzer hara that entered into humanity from Adam’s original sin.
If you say it isn’t how I describe it, how is it?
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chosen_people
Guest
The problem is when you use the word “salvation” it has a context which is totally different and foreign to me as a Jew and to Judaism. One doesn’t require “salvation” in the Christian sense from the yetzer harah to choose to do good.
While Christianity may have Jewish roots it is totally conceptually different as a religion then Judaism. The Christian quest for universiality required replacing the oral and written laws of Judaisim with a set of teachable dogmatic beliefs which could be explained to an illiterate pagan to bring him “into the fold”. Even a simple discussion about Judaisim begins with the faulty question by the Christian, based on the dogmatic concept of his religion, What do Jews believe?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
- I think either you get strength from God to avoid sin or you don’t, if it keeps you from sin it is saving you from it. Do Jews get strength from God to avoid sin?
- And then if you do sin, you need atonement for it, which Messiah also makes for the people in prophecy. So that saves you from the results of sin.
How does all this differ so that there is not a salvation from sin in Judaism when considering the same two things?
Or does Judaism just not like the term “salvation” because it sounds too Christian?
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chosen_people
Guest
Hopefully these sources might be helpful to you in understanding the Jewish view as to original sin, sinning and repentance
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
convert.org/differ.htm
askmoses.com/article.html?h=250&o=121
crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
convert.org/differ.htm
askmoses.com/article.html?h=250&o=121
crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm
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paidion
Guest
Shall we then also quote various individuals from RC history and paste their beliefs on every RC today? I’m sure there are a lot of ridiculous things that can be quoted that do not apply to ALL RCs.
That would also be like quoting from kabbalah and saying those writings also apply to “all Jews”, because it is a Jewish book.
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BlestOne
Guest
Thank you Chosen People… I appreciate your patience and your explanations… please accept my apology if I offended you in any way.
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BlestOne
Guest
Thanks for the source… that was going to be my next question… As Catholics we see this alot too… people applying their values and beliefs to cast us in the worst possible light…The quotes and misinterpretations are from the antisemitic book by Father I. B. Pranaitis “The talmud unmasked”. You may find his work along with that other great antisemitic book “The protocols of the elders of Zion” on umpteen antiJewish websites on the internet. The people who bring these quotes are fans of these websites and also appear in every thread on this forum having to do with Jews to take the opportunity to explain their views about the Jews. If you enjoy this kind of thing may I point you to the thread on this forum on the truth behind the killing of little gentile children by Jews? I personally shouldn’t have a lot of time to deal with this as apparently I am busy controlling along with my coreligionists all the money and banks and power in the world and deciding where Bush should send his troops to fight for Israel and the Jews and deciding how to undermine Christianity for good Christians everywhere.
If you are interested see as a starting point:
adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf
Love your wit about money and banking… that was funny!
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ralphinal
Guest
Question:
Would the Jewish faith have an issue with the concept of concupiscience? Is it acceptable to think that humans have a characteristic (not getting into where it is from) that we will drift away from God if left to our own devices?
I have know very poor Jewish people. I have know extremly rich ones, too. I have never thought that they looked down upon me as a Catholic. I have known some who were very orthodox and some that were in name only, again, I did not feel that they looked down on me. I did feel at times like they thought I was judging them or did not accept them, especially the most orthodox ones. However, with time, they seemed to change that thought. I understand that the more closely knit communities may lead people to feel that they have an attitude of superiority, not to mention the whole “God’s chosen people” thing. However, any Christian should not have an issue with that. After all, they ARE.
Would the Jewish faith have an issue with the concept of concupiscience? Is it acceptable to think that humans have a characteristic (not getting into where it is from) that we will drift away from God if left to our own devices?
I have know very poor Jewish people. I have know extremly rich ones, too. I have never thought that they looked down upon me as a Catholic. I have known some who were very orthodox and some that were in name only, again, I did not feel that they looked down on me. I did feel at times like they thought I was judging them or did not accept them, especially the most orthodox ones. However, with time, they seemed to change that thought. I understand that the more closely knit communities may lead people to feel that they have an attitude of superiority, not to mention the whole “God’s chosen people” thing. However, any Christian should not have an issue with that. After all, they ARE.
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chosen_people
Guest
The concept of “God’s chosen people” in Judaism in not one of superiority but one of added responsibility to follow all the commandments.
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Valke2
Guest
I’m sure I have addressed each of those quotes several times on these threads. I’m not going to address them again because, among other reasons, Lukewarm apologized for these posts in another thread recently, so I’m going to just leave it alone.
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ralphinal
Guest
I thought I was more clear in my post. I am sorry. I think that some non-Jews see this claim as a claim of superiority. If you look at what being chosen meant, it really wasn’t an easier row to hoe. I never took it as a claim of superiority at all.
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Valke2
Guest
Well, my first problem is with the definition of concupiscience. Which I did not know. If I understand you correctly, this is drifting from God and toward our more basic appetites?
I don’t know if there’s something in Judaism that directly paralles this theology (?). But it got me thinking of this general principal that can be observed in the Tanakh. The direct communication/relationship with God becomes more remote in the latter portions of the Tanakh. God’s involvement with Moses, for example, is a great deal more personal than His involvemnt with Esther. There is a progression from dependence on God to Human responsiblity to do what is right.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Right, but it can make one haughty. The segregation of the gentiles is one example.
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Frank_J
Guest
Hi
I’m back with my wife response to what written. She agreed that is the worst form racism and rubbish. I once made a remark to one of the Serbians that I have as friends and I told them that they will find people, that don’t like them, only because they are who they are. I said that not let it bother them.
I told my friend about a Catholic Nuns who insulted me one day when I was introduced as a member of a Traditionalists Catholic group. She viewed me with anger and disgust. I told me friend this that Nuns was very lucky I was raised the right by my parents to show respect for religionist and never put my hand up to them. When I was young my mother said that if a woman ever hit me, she told me to hit them back.
So that you will know I’m an ex-Catholic who was once a Traditionalists. You know the one, that view that the true Mass was the Tridentine Mass was the only true one. If you what to know why I left it was because of her remark that I left the RC Church. She was the last straw in a line of problems that were going on in the Church. So I have seen close up religionist racism up close.
I would also like to state that I have dealt many people from many different religions too. I know Croatian Catholic, Serbian Orthodox Christians and Bosnian Muslims. I was able to watch how these people interacted back in the late 1990’s. I was able to build trust with these people over the time.
I know that one of the Bosnian Muslims stabbed a Serbian man on the job. So you could say I have seen the war from that part of the world up close. I treated all the same on the job and I had a run in with one of the Bosnian Muslims who didn’t like my being kind with one of there woman. He started to yell at me in a foreign language and my response to him is he did not like it here that he should go home where he came from.
I feel that telling you this you will see that I’ve seen religionist racism up close.
Have a great day.
Frank J.
I’m back with my wife response to what written. She agreed that is the worst form racism and rubbish. I once made a remark to one of the Serbians that I have as friends and I told them that they will find people, that don’t like them, only because they are who they are. I said that not let it bother them.
I told my friend about a Catholic Nuns who insulted me one day when I was introduced as a member of a Traditionalists Catholic group. She viewed me with anger and disgust. I told me friend this that Nuns was very lucky I was raised the right by my parents to show respect for religionist and never put my hand up to them. When I was young my mother said that if a woman ever hit me, she told me to hit them back.
So that you will know I’m an ex-Catholic who was once a Traditionalists. You know the one, that view that the true Mass was the Tridentine Mass was the only true one. If you what to know why I left it was because of her remark that I left the RC Church. She was the last straw in a line of problems that were going on in the Church. So I have seen close up religionist racism up close.
I would also like to state that I have dealt many people from many different religions too. I know Croatian Catholic, Serbian Orthodox Christians and Bosnian Muslims. I was able to watch how these people interacted back in the late 1990’s. I was able to build trust with these people over the time.
I know that one of the Bosnian Muslims stabbed a Serbian man on the job. So you could say I have seen the war from that part of the world up close. I treated all the same on the job and I had a run in with one of the Bosnian Muslims who didn’t like my being kind with one of there woman. He started to yell at me in a foreign language and my response to him is he did not like it here that he should go home where he came from.
I feel that telling you this you will see that I’ve seen religionist racism up close.
Have a great day.
Frank J.
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