Jews Look Down on Non-Jews?

[Valke2]

Right, but it can make one haughty. The segregation of the gentiles is one example.

You’re kidding, right?

 

[ralphinal]

Well, my first problem is with the definition of concupiscience. Which I did not know. If I understand you correctly, this is drifting from God and toward our more basic appetites?

I don’t know if there’s something in Judaism that directly paralles this theology (?). But it got me thinking of this general principal that can be observed in the Tanakh. The direct communication/relationship with God becomes more remote in the latter portions of the Tanakh. God’s involvement with Moses, for example, is a great deal more personal than His involvemnt with Esther. There is a progression from dependence on God to Human responsiblity to do what is right.

Yes, it is an understanding that our attachment to sin causes us to drift from Him.

By the line of thought from the Tanakh, would there come a time that humans did not need God at all? Or, would God’s rules no longer apply as human rules would replace them?

 

[Valke2]

Yes, it is an understanding that our attachment to sin causes us to drift from Him.

By the line of thought from the Tanakh, would there come a time that humans did not need God at all? Or, would God’s rules no longer apply as human rules would replace them?

No. Just that we have to take more responsiblity in living by God’s wishes. To look at this another way, there’s a progression and regression of the use of miracles in the Torah. No human is involved with a miracle until Jacob. Jacob uses a rod of black and white to get the best sheep bred and increase his wealth at Laban’s expense (whether there is an element of Divine intervention here is debatable). Then Joseph is able to read dreams. Then we have Moses and the miracles in Egypt. Here a human is directly playing a part in God’s miracles in a clear and direct way for the first time.

Later, Moses strikes the rock twice to get water. Here we have the first example of a human changing/influencing/directing one of God’s Miracles.

Even later Joshua goes further by raising his hands and asking (telling?) God to stop the sun. He actually requests the miraclous action. Here a human is taking more responsibility for his actions by initiating the miracle.

After this, I don’t think there are any more miracles. Humans no longer can rely on direct divine intervention. Or at least do so less and less, becoming more responsible for enacting God’s plan. Their responsibilty increases to such an extent that we have Esther saving the people without any direct reference to Divine intervention whatsoever.

We see a shift in responsiblity being given to humans. We are required to become more proactive in obeying God’s commandments, but we are still required to obey them.

 

[ralphinal]

Valke,
I am with you so far on this. What about the things from Judges and the prophets? Elijah and Elisha and the works they did?

I do not disagree that God expects us to follow and believe now without force from Him or enticement from miracles.

 

[Hastrman]

That would also be like quoting from kabbalah and saying those writings also apply to “all Jews”, because it is a Jewish book.

Um…Kabbalah (I forget which consonants are geminate; is it Kaballah?) is not a book, it’s a mystical school of thought based on the book called the Zohar. And second…most Jews *do *follow some school of Kabbalah properly so-called–I do believe it’s the predominant school of Jewish philosophy/theology (concept sort of combined in Jewish thought). They also use Aristotelianism as interpreted by Rambam (Rabbi Moshe Bar Maimon, aka Moses Maimonides). The alternative is Maimonideanism that rejects Kabbalah, which I believe is pretty much restricted to Yemenite Jews.

Madonna’s “religion” is not real Kabbalah.

 

[Hastrman]

As to the original topic of the thread, I would argue that the Jews don’t so much look down on Gentiles, as have a rather tribal, insular mentality. It’s not a religious thing, though; it seems to be cultural baggage, left over from before the Covenant. Other Canaanites had it a lot worse, not having had Torah to correct them.

Also secularist Jews are a million times more likely to be bigots, at least that I’ve seen, than religious Jews. After all, not having God, all they’ve got is race. As Milton Himmelfarb (I think) once said, “Their problem is they don’t define themselves as the people God loves, but as the people Gentiles hate.”

The other thing is, it’s hard to lose your tribalist mentality when everybody tries to kill you once every three centuries.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Also secularist Jews are a million times more likely to be bigots, at least that I’ve seen, than religious Jews. After all, not having God, all they’ve got is race.

The bad thing is they don’t even have race since one is either a Jew by conversion to Judaism which requires belief in Laws given by God, or by being born to a Jewish mother which is a standard based on a Law of God.

So atheist Jews are only Jews because of a God they don’t believe in – they base their identity on what they consider to be fabrication, and thus are living a lie.

 

[ralphinal]

The other thing is, it’s hard to lose your tribalist mentality when everybody tries to kill you once every three centuries.

If it was that rare, they would get over it.

 

[Hastrman]

If it was that rare, they would get over it.

No, on average it’s about that rare. In between they frequently do pretty well.

They could even be nobles in Late Medieval Poland.

But when you’re 4000 years old, that’s 13 times you’ve nearly been wiped out. You have 13 attempts on your life, you don’t get over that in a hurry.

 

[Reuben_J]

Who are the Jews today?

As a race/tribe, you are pretty much diluted through the ages, especially through inter-marriages and conversion of other races to Judaism who are incorporated as Jews. You are as a race mainly through the oneness of religion - Judaism, as Christians through Christianity.

It’s interesting though - who actually are the Jews today? If you say you’re the remnant of the tribe of Judah, I doubt it, let alone of the other eleven tribes.

The element of superiority and exclusiveness in Judaism, very much like in Islam, is why, I think, this thread comes about.

 

[chosen_people]

As to the original topic of the thread, I would argue that the Jews don’t so much look down on Gentiles, as have a rather tribal, insular mentality. It’s not a religious thing, though; it seems to be cultural baggage, left over from before the Covenant. Other Canaanites had it a lot worse, not having had Torah to correct them.

Also secularist Jews are a million times more likely to be bigots, at least that I’ve seen, than religious Jews. After all, not having God, all they’ve got is race. As Milton Himmelfarb (I think) once said, “Their problem is they don’t define themselves as the people God loves, but as the people Gentiles hate.”

The other thing is, it’s hard to lose your tribalist mentality when everybody tries to kill you once every three centuries.

I think the Christians came to have a “tribal insular mentality” when the Jews passed laws that forbade any and all social and work contact with them, made Christians live in ghettoes and wear special clothing marking them as Christians, periodically expelled them, forced converted them to Judaisim and murdered them, taught their children that Christians were cursed since they commited deicide and that Christians cause the plague and poisoned wells and murdered little Jewish babies for their blood


The other really surprising thing is that given the attitude you expressed about Jews as above you don’t have inumerable Jewish friends

 

[chosen_people]

Who are the Jews today?

As a race/tribe, you are pretty much diluted through the ages, especially through inter-marriages and conversion of other races to Judaism who are incorporated as Jews. You are as a race mainly through the oneness of religion - Judaism, as Christians through Christianity.

It’s interesting though - who actually are the Jews today? If you say you’re the remnant of the tribe of Judah, I doubt it, let alone of the other eleven tribes.

The element of superiority and exclusiveness in Judaism, very much like in Islam, is why, I think, this thread comes about.

Jews are a people not a race. In an age of genetics and DNA it has been proven that Jews everywhere share a common gentetic makeup and that they came from the middle east. The line of Cohanim can be traced back thousands of years to a single male.
In other words, the people you read about in the Tanach going out of Egypt with Moses are infact the forefathers of your Jewish neighbour celebrating passover.

 

[Valke2]

Valke,
I am with you so far on this. What about the things from Judges and the prophets? Elijah and Elisha and the works they did?

I do not disagree that God expects us to follow and believe now without force from Him or enticement from miracles.

Well, again with the prophets, we see increased distance between God and human, with less direct intervention from God.
God speaks directly Adam and Eve, with Abraham, giving direct commands and engaging in conversation. He (possibly) wrestles with Jacob and blesses him. He also directly changes both Abraham and Jacob’s name, as well as Sarah’s. His direct communication peaks with Moses (those two never went anywhere without each other). And afterward, He starts to distance himself from communicating with humans, doing so through prophets, who generally hear from Him in dreams or visions.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, again with the prophets, we see increased distance between God and human, with less direct intervention from God.
God speaks directly Adam and Eve, with Abraham, giving direct commands and engaging in conversation. He (possibly) wrestles with Jacob and blesses him. He also directly changes both Abraham and Jacob’s name, as well as Sarah’s. His direct communication peaks with Moses (those two never went anywhere without each other). And afterward, He starts to distance himself from communicating with humans, doing so through prophets, who generally hear from Him in dreams or visions.

Oops. I was not clear. I was talking about the miracles performed by these people. Elijah was much closer to Moses in works and in contact with God than he was with any other post-Moses prophet or figure.

 

[Valke2]

Good question. Perhaps this is the exception that explains the rule? I’ll ruminate and get back to you

 

[RomanCrusader]

Just grab a copy of the Talmud and see for yourself what us goyim are described as.

I don’t think the average religious Jew looks down on gentiles, but the Talmud certainly does.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Just grab a copy of the Talmud and see for yourself what us goyim are described as.

I don’t think the average religious Jew looks down on gentiles, but the Talmud certainly does.

It refers to heathen Gentiles, it’s not really that bad. Jesus calls such people dogs too.

 

[chosen_people]

Just grab a copy of the Talmud and see for yourself what us goyim are described as.

I don’t think the average religious Jew looks down on gentiles, but the Talmud certainly does.

The following is Van Hyning’s list. Both Pranaitøis and Freedman claim a longer list but the following list and refutations dispels the whole.

ACCUSATIONS FACTS

“The Talmud refers to Jesus Christ as the bastard son of a harlot (Kallah, 1b, 18b)” Kallah, 1b, 18b. The quotation does not exist in this volume. This is a complete fabrication, and even the reference numbers are fabricated.

“Jesus is blasphemed as a fool (Schabbath, 104b), a conjurer (Toldoth Jeshu), and idolater. (Sanhedrin 103a) and a seducer (Sanhedrin 107b).” Schabbath, 104b. The correct spelling of this volume is Shabbath. It does not make an evaluation of anyone, but rather reports a dialogue; “It was taught, Rabbi Eliezer said to the Sages: But did not Ben Stada bring forth witchcraft from Egypt by means of scratches (in the form of charms) upon his flesh? He was a fool, answered they, and proof cannot be adduced from fools.” The professional antisemites are relying on the theory that the Talmudic scholars meant Jesus when they referred to Ben Stada. A British scholar, R. Travers Herford, gives it as his opinion in “Christianity in Talmud and Midrash” (p. 37) that Ben Stada means Jesus of Nazareth. Further on, however, he says “…The Talmud has preserved only a very vague and confused recollection of Jesus” (p. 83). And he points out that some people argue “that there are in the Talmud two persons called Jesus, neither of whom is the historical Jesus of Nazareth” (p. 347).
Toldoth Jeshu is a book from the Middle Ages. It is not a part of the Talmud. [The Toledoth Yeshu is a polemic work written in about the 10th century. The Oxford Dictionary of Jewish Religion says of it, “…the work is an expression of vulgar polemics written in reaction to the no less vulgar attacks on Judaism in popular Christian teaching and writing [of that time]”.]
Sanhedrin 103a. Van Hyning’s claim that it calls Jesus an idolator is a complete fabrication.
Sanhedrin 107b. This is a distortion of the truth by Van Hyning based upon a legendary story in this portion of the Talmud. As it is actually related, Jesus and his teacher met a woman at a wayside inn; Jesus admired her extreme beauty. For this the teacher severely admonished him and dismissed him as a pupil. The rabbis in the Talmud sharply criticized the teacher for his harshness and severity towards Jesus.

"The Talmud teaches that Jesus died like a beast and was buried in that ‘dirt heap’…where they throw the dead bodies of dogs and asses and where the sons of Ssau (the Christians) and of Ismael (the Turks), also Jesus and Mohammed, uncircumsized and unclean like dead dogs are buried (Zobar, III, 282). Zohar, III, 282. This is a cabalistic work that came into being during the Middle Ages [13th c.]. It is not a part of the Talmud. This entire “quotation” is a complete fabrication.

"

 

[chosen_people]

One of the basic doctrines of the Talmud is that all non-Talmudists rank as non-humans, that they are not like men, but beasts. (Kerithuth, 6b, p. 78)". Kerithuth, 6b, p. 78. Even the numbering system is a fabrication. 6b means page 6, side 2. Consequently, page 78 can have no relationship to 6b. This claim is based upon a particular dialogue in which reference is made specifically to heathens in a fashion comparable to that of many Christian preachers who today still thunder away with the doctrine that only those who accept Jesus Christ will be “saved.” Obviously no sane person with a semblance of decency would condemn present-day Jews for the dialogue of some individual religious philosophers 1700 years ago.

“A JEW WHO KILLS A CHRISTIAN COMMITS NO SIN, BUT OFFERS AN ACCEPTABLE SACRIFICE TO GOD. ‘Even the best of the non-Jews should be killed.’ (Abhodah Zarah, 26b Tosepoth).” Abhodah Zarah, 26b, Tosepoth. Tosepoth is not a part of the Talmud. It is a collection of commentaries on the Talmud. In a passage alluded to by Van Hyning, Tosepoth quotes a Talmudic source as stating that the command of killing all Canaanites was applicable only during the war against them.

“The following quotation from and about the Talmud should be of interest to all Christians. Note: ‘GOY’ means non-Jews; ‘GOYIM’ is plural for Goy.”
“Jehovah Himself studies the Talmud standing, he has such respect for that book (Tract Mechilla).” Tract Mechilla. No such book exists in the Talmud. Furthermore, the internal evidence in the alleged quotation suggests crude fabrication. The Talmud is not “that book”; it is a collection of volumes.

“Every goy who studies the Talmud and every Jew who helps him in it, ought to die. (Sanhedrin, 59a Abhodah Zarah 8-6).” Abhodah Zarah 8-6. Insofar as this volume is concerned the quotation is a complete fabrication. Even the reference number is incorrect. It should read “Abhodah Zarah 8a or 8b.” A number such as 8-6 can never exist in the Talmud.
Sanhedrin, 59a. Here is reported a dialogue between two Rabbis, the first of whom does indeed fanatically advocate death for a heathen who studies the Torah (the Pentateuch, not the Talmud), The second Rabbi effectively demolishes his colleague’s argument by pointing out that the heathen who studies the Torah succeeds in elevating himself to the status of a High Priest.

“To communicate anything to a goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about them they would kill us openly. (Libbre David 37).” Libbre David 37. This is a complete fabrication. No such book exists in the Talmud or in the entire Jewish literature.

 

[chosen_people]

“A Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim asks if our books contain anything against them. (Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17).” The Book of Jore Dia 17. No such statement appears, This is a complete fabrication.
Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17. There is no such book in the Talmud. These two words are part of the title of some 1500 books, but by themselves they mean only “responses.”

“The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts. (Baba Mecia 114-6).” Baba Mecia 114-6. This quotation is a complete fabrication. Even the numbering is incorrect. There can be no 114-6; it has to be 114a or 114b.

“When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves. (Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56D).” Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56D. There is no such book in the Talmud. It is actually the name of a 10th century Bible commentator. The “fol. 56D” is an invention.

“Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night. (Midrash Talpioth, 225-L).” Midrash Talpioth, 225-L. This is not a volume of the Talmud. It is something composed by a Turkish Jew in the 18th century. His name was Elijah ben Solomom Abraham, ha-Kohen.

“As soon as the King Messiah will declare himself, He will destroy Rome and make a wilderness of it. Thorns and weeds will grow in the Pope’s palace. Then he will start a merciless war on non-Jews and will overpower them. He will slay them in masses, kill their kings and lay waste the whole Roman land. He will say to the Jews: ‘I am the King Messiah for whom you have been waiting. Take the silver and the gold from the goyim.’ (Josiah 60, Rabbi Abarbanel to Daniel 7, 13).” Josiah 60. This is not a volume from the Talmud. There is no book of that title in existence.