Jews of the Old Covenant

  • Thread starter Thread starter phoage
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

phoage

Guest
Consider this:

God is always faithful to his covenants.
A covenant is an agreement between 2 parties. Both must agree.
If the Jews who did not accept the New Covenant (Jesus) remain faithful to the Old covenant (Mosaic Law), then they are still God’s chosen people.

Does this make sense?

Patrick
AMDG
 
They violated the Old Covenant many times and broke it for good when they murdered the Son of God.
The Old Covenant is no longer valid.
The book of Hebrews is a good place to start
 
It depends what you mean by Old Covenant. The convenant with Moses was provisional and transitory. It no longer applies. The covenant with Abraham, the covenant of faith, is fulfilled in Christ. In a sense, it is the same covenant. This covenant, first offered to the Jews, has since also been offered to the Gentiles. Those with faith in Christ are grafted in, while those without it are cut off. Once the fullness of the Gentiles come in, the Jews will also acknowledge Christ and in fulfillment of the promises God has made to them. They are not definitively cut off–they are still His chosen people–the call and promises of God are irrevocable.
 
Last edited:
Hello phoage,
Your question doesn’t make sense to me. Do we agree that the following is the new covenant or are you referring to something else.
*
JER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
JER 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know
me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
*
 
By New Covenant, I am referring to Jesus, The New Testament, The Church.

Patrick
AMDG
 
The Covenant with Moses is a detailed explanation of the Ten Commandments. Are you saying that the Ten Commandments are “provisional and transitory”? Besides this, G-d’s Law contains numerous expressions by G-d Himself attesting to the everlasting permanence of His Covenant with Moses. Do you believe G-d was lying or joking when he made such statements? And Jesus Himself said that He came not to change one iota of the Law: what does this mean regarding the Covenant with Moses?
 
Last edited:
Is a covenant broken due to sin, which cannot be forgiven? If this were so, then BOTH Jews and Christians had better seek another covenant.
 
The Ten Commandments can also be known by reason–they are not dependent on the Mosaic Law. Here’s a good article on the covenants and their relationship with the New (the context is looking at these themes in the writings of Cardinal Ratzinger, but it provides a good overview with the supporting Scriptural citations).


There’s a reason the specific details of the Mosaic Law are not (and even cannot) be followed by Jews today, why there is no more sacrifices offered, no temple, no penalties inflicted, etc. and also why there has not been a prophet among them since those days, whereas the pure sacrifice offered from East to West from the rising to the setting sun, prophesied by the last prophet, is offered under the covenant of Christ.
 
This article explains perfectly the fallacy of my argument. So much for my attempt at theology.

Patrick
AMDG
 
Just because you are in a covenant with God, this doesn’t necessarily make you God’s “chosen” people.

I say this as a Jew. In the earliest expressions of our people, in ancient times, it was common for us (like our ancient national neighbors around us) to claim that we were unique, and that our God had given us a special status in the world and the universe. We claimed back then that we were chosen above all others in a way that no other people or nation had been chosen, and we asserted in those ancient days that it was by a special revelation (a covenant) from God that made this status so.

But guess what? This is basically what every other nation that coexisted with ours did too. Read and study their religious literature that was written around the same time ours was. Theirs says about the same thing–sometimes the very same thing.

Now, I don’t reject my God, my religion, my culture’s distinctiveness, or the Mosaic Covenant. I’m Torah observant. But being in the Covenant, and being “God’s Chosen People,” well–are they really the same thing?

Besides, according to the Roman Catholic Church in the recent document released by the Vatican in 2015 entitled The Gifts and Calling of God are Irrevocable, regardless of the fact that the Church sees itself in the New Covenant with Jesus, it does NOT teach that the Covenant between God and the Jews has ended, nor that God’s relationship with the Jews changed in anyway: “The covenant that God has offered Israel is irrevocable. ‘God is not man, that he should lie’ (Num 23:19; cf. 2 Tim 2:13). The permanent elective fidelity of God expressed in earlier covenants is never repudiated…God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel.”

While the Jewish people retain a vocation that emerges authentically out of our own Jewish history, we have no superiority from our calling. We are no more “chosen” or special than any other people because of it. As the Catholic Church teaches, God has not set aside or rejected the Jews because of the New Covenant, neither are there any peoples on earth that are more chosen or more special than any others today either. All today are called by God to love their neighbor and serve one another. All are called to work toward bringing forth God’s redemption.

Instead of seeking to feel especially chosen by God, choose to make your neighbor feel especially chosen by you as you loving seek them out and serve their needs. Worry not how God views the Jews or Christians. Worry more how you are viewed by God and how you are treating your neighbor.
 
While the Ten Commandments may be known by reason, humans have a tendency to apply faulty logic and to rationalize instead of reason correctly. Further, the DETAILS of the Ten Commandments, as elucidated in the Books of the Torah, as well as the Mishna and Talmud, include information and wisdom that the average person may never have thought of using their own reasoning.
 
Last edited:
huck said:
ER 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
Click to expand...
Respectfully.
NAB reads
Jeremiah 31: 31 " The days are coming says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah">>both Houses were split when Jesus came and both Houses were still split when Jesus left. God was not pleased with the House of Israel or the House of Judah, why?

Jeremiah 31:21-34. States> I took them? For they broke my covenant? Both Houses?
huck said:
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Click to expand...
Agree respectfully. Opinion only and pondering on what is written. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a Prophecy is it not?

Jeremiah 31:31-34>> Flows>>> also in what St Paul taught us>>Whether one is circumcised or not circumcised ( outwardly) matters not?
thus the Prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34>>The days are coming when the House of Israel and the House of Judah?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Has the Prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 come to pass yet?
This is the Covenant God will make with them>>
I Will place my Law (Commandments) within them?
I Will write my Laws upon their hearts of flesh, not upon stone tablets this time?
They shall be my people?
No longer will they have need to teach their friends or neighbors, how to know the Lord?
All from the least to the greatest shall know me?
Click to expand...
I Will forgive their evil doing and remember their sins no more?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
The Great Prophet Isaiah, does he not tell us also? The Lion will lay down with the Lamb when this happens? Man will make their swords into plow share? Has this happen yet also?

The Prophecy of the Prophet Jeremiah 31:31-34 come to pass yet?
Peace 🙂
 
Last edited:
I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

It is declared Catholic teaching that following the Old Covenant will not save us.

What we believe is that Jesus fulfilled the Covenant and that now Jews and gentiles are one under the same covenant, the new covenant that is on our hearts that we all follow.
 
Salvation is not the purpose of the Old Covenant. The purpose of the Old Covenant is to make us morally responsible to G-d by following His commandments. The by-product of obedience to G-d is that we lead better lives for ourselves and in our behavior toward others. There is no end goal in the form of being saved. There is also no conception of anyone, including the Messiah, being able to “fulfill” the Covenant. The Covenant stands for each individual to strive to be his best by obeying G-d and thus behaving in a moral way toward others. Lastly, following the Covenant does not mean going through the motions of obeying the commandments. Rather, the behavior must be ingrained in our hearts for it to have any value.
 
Last edited:
OP, the old covenants are no more because they had been fulfilled by God.

There is only one covenant still valid now and it is for all mankind until the end of time.
 
Last edited:
The declaration in “The Gifts and Caling of God are Irrevocable,” released by the Vatican in 2015, as I quoted from, states that the Catholic Church no longer teaches that Jews are no longer under the original covenant God made with the nation of Israel through Moses at Sinai.

In fact, the entire document teaches that the Church, after witnessing how God delivered Israel from the Holocaust and returned Israel to its land, cannot claim that God has abandoned the Jews and is not thereby in covenant with them. These are the words of the Catholic Church in this document, not mine.

Since Jews have neither a belief in observing the covenant for salvation, and since Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah, Jews cannot be under the “New” Christian covenant. This the document agrees.

The document also states that this doesn’t imply that the Jews are not without salvation, neither do they need to explicitly embrace Christ for it, not are there two ways (one for Jews and one for Christians) to be saved. In the end, the Church states in the document, only God knows.

Again these are not my views, neither do I claim complete agreement or disagreement with some of all or any of them. I am merely reporting on the document.

As a Catholic, however, you should be up to date on what on what your Church teach. I know it can difficult. Some documents are lengthy, some get released with little fanfare, and then the language is not always the easiest to understand. But it was released in December of 2015, and this is March 2018.

So I am not stating something particularly new. And even though I am Jewish, I don’t believe the Church ever taught that non-converted Jews were under the New Covenant.
 
No. It is a critical doctrine of the Faith and is not an ecclesiastical teaching that can change.

You misunderstand. From what you are taking this from:

“New Covenant does not revoke the earlier covenants, but it brings them to fulfilment. Through the Christ event Christians have understood that all that had gone before was to be interpreted anew. For Christians the New Covenant has acquired a quality of its own, even though the orientation for both consists in a unique relationship with God (cf. for example, the covenant formula in Lev 26:12, “I will be your God and you will be my people”). For Christians, the New Covenant in Christ is the culminating point of the promises of salvation of the Old Covenant, and is to that extent never independent of it. The New Covenant is grounded in and based on the Old, because it is ultimately the God of Israel who concludes the Old Covenant with his people Israel and enables the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus lives during the period of the Old Covenant, but in his work of salvation in the New Covenant confirms and perfects the dimensions of the Old. The term covenant, therefore, means a relationship with God that takes effect in different ways for Jews and Christians. The New Covenant can never replace the Old but presupposes it and gives it a new dimension of meaning, by reinforcing the personal nature of God as revealed in the Old Covenant and establishing it as openness for all who respond faithfully from all the nations (cf. Zech 8:20-23; Psalm 87).”
Bolded parts mine.
 
The text says: “FOR CHRISTIANS, the New Covenant in Christ…confirms and perfects the dimensions of the Old.” It does not say it does any of this for Jews

It then adds that the “New Covenant can never replace the Old” which was given not to Gentiles but to Jews.

Regardless, I do not personally agree with everything written in this document myself nor do I subscribe to Catholic teaching being that I am Jewish.
 
Last edited:
If I may point you to one last thing that the text of The Gifts and Calling of God are Irrevocable points out regarding what you refer to as the Old Covenant, and which you quoted in your own post:
The term covenant, therefore, means a relationship with God that takes effect in different ways for Jews and Christians.
Click to expand...
You had mentioned earlier:
It is declared Catholic teaching that following the Old Covenant will not save us.
Click to expand...
That is not a Jewish teaching. Like the document says, the “term covenant…means a relationship with God that takes effect in different ways for Jews and Christians.”

For Catholics it means faith and salvation, but for Jews it means relationship with God and godliness. We don’t even have a doctrine of salvation in Judaism.

The misunderstanding began when you began attempting to apply Catholic definitions universally, whereas the Vatican is clear that the meaning of covenant cannot be applied the same way for both Catholics and Jews.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top