Jews of the Old Covenant

[Kei]

It’s an explanation of belief.

The Old Covenant was given to the Jews, the New for all people. Not as a replacement. But as a fulfillment.

For Catholics, it means a relationship with God, a reformation of the heart to one of love, and eventually salvation in the presence of God. For all people, not just gentiles. Not just Jews.

 

[meltzerboy2]

This is entering into apologetics debate, but Jewish teaching translates this as “renewed covenant” rather than “new covenant.” Renewed means that the Old Covenant will be refreshed and studied more earnestly than before during the Messianic era. The Mosaic Law never disappears, particularly not when the Messiah appears. On the contrary, it becomes more important than ever.

 

[Midge]

I would say that’s more of a personal testimony than a critical response. It more or less represents your beliefs as a Catholic, no?

Whereas my comments don’t necessarily reflect my stand as a Jew. As I mentioned I don’t necessarily agree with the document we’ve been discussing, but I’ve been arguing to point out what it’s been saying despite the fact that my convictions are quite different than what are printed there.

I don’t come here to debate my personal beliefs or opinions but to offer answers from an academic point of view.

 

[Kei]

I am presenting the Catholic beliefs, which I hold as I am a Catholic.

 

[Kei]

Oh if only you knew how much we agreed on the point!

 

[rose321]

Renewed means that the Old Covenant will be refreshed and studied more earnestly than before during the Messianic era. The Mosaic Law never disappears, particularly not when the Messiah appears. On the contrary, it becomes more important than ever.

Respectfully, opinion only seeking to ask the questions to meltzerboy2:
Stating Mosaic Law does not disappear is this why within the ( renewed) Covenant> the prophecy given by Jeremiah 31:31-34 God this time telling us I Will>> write the Mosaic Laws upon our hearts of flesh, is that what one is stating why it becomes more important then ever?
So the Mosaic Law does not go away, but remains?
Not that His Covenant was not perfect, but human beings were not, because of our harden hearts of stone, like Jesus points out?
Just pondering on and seems to flow with Jesus teaching, does it not?
Thank you, if one chooses to reply. Peace

 

[meltzerboy2]

That is certainly one interpretation although it is not exactly the mainstream Jewish interpretation. For if the Law is entirely written on our hearts, this deprives us to a certain degree of the free will of choosing to study and practice the Law, or not doing so. On this side of heaven, one of the blessed gifts we humans have is the free will to accept or reject what G-d offers us. The Law itself had to be freely chosen at its inception. And we believe it remains an equal partnership between G-d and humanity rather than a forced choice. True, once the Messiah comes, that choice will lean more in the direction of following the Law rather than rejecting it, but the choice is still ours to make.

Regarding the perfection of the Law and the imperfection of mankind, that is what makes the choice even more challenging due to its basis on the will to become more faithful. G-d knows that we are far from perfect and we will slip up in practicing the Law as well as understanding its meaning. But G-d is forgiving of our imperfections and does not expect us to be perfect. All He asks of us is that we make the effort to become better people in relation to our partnership with Him and with others by learning incrementally what is required of us according to the Law.

 

[Dan_Defender]

We believe that the Messiah already came as predicted by the Book of Daniel Chapter 9, and started a New Covenant that extends to all people, not just Jews.
Apart from that, the destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple in AD 70 meant the end of Temple ritual and sacrifices, central to the Old Covenant.

 

[rose321]

That is certainly one interpretation although it is not exactly the mainstream Jewish interpretation.

Respectfully wanting to thank you for your reply! Peace:

 

[rose321]

Respectfully toward.
Meltzerboy I am asking this question for my Uncle, (a strong faithful Catholic also) for which I do not clearly understand exactly his questioned being asked. But I promise I would ask you.
His Question >> Jesus being a Jew born and raised in the Faith and Belief, have the right to start a new religion and select 12 Apostles?

I know in the time of Jesus there were many claiming to be the Messiah also is this true? Do know Jesus heavily quotes from OT in all his preaching and teaching also.

Sorry I am confused with his question, really do not know what his question is all about.
If one cares to answer, thank you kindly! Peace

 

[Midge]

I know in the time of Jesus there were many claiming to be the Messiah also is this true?

Though once widely believed and unchallenged, academics and historians know this not to be true.

There were not many claiming to be the Messiah around the time of Jesus of Nazareth nor a general expectation among the Jewish population of the Messiah’s arrival around the time Jesus was alive as reported in the New Testament.

On the contrary, Jews expected to see the Messiah during a time when the Temple was not standing because hope in the arrival of a personal Messiah included the building of a Temple and a regathering of all the Diaspora back to Israel to worship there. The Second Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day.

 

[rose321]

On the contrary, Jews expected to see the Messiah during a time when the Temple was not standing because hope in the arrival of a personal Messiah included the building of a Temple and a regathering of all the Diaspora back to Israel to worship there. The Second Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day.

Respectfully opinion only and thank you for your reply. Sorry pondering on with more questions, seeking understanding and answers to what one has stated.

Messiah> comes to fulfill the prophecy spoken by the Prophets about him.>Jesus!

In what you have stated Temple was standing in Jesus time ( agree with), then it leads me to more question in what one has stated.

Was there ever a time when the Temple was not standing before Jesus time?
Temple was destroy by Israelites enemies, around 535 B.C.E more or less?

Titled within our Bible>>Cyrus anointed of the Lord Liberator of Israel>>>Isaiah:44: 24-28 " Thus says the Lord, your redeemer who formed you from the womb>>>>

And continues Isaiah 45:1-4 " Thus says the Lord to his anointed Cyrus…"

Israel Temple was not standing, destroyed by its enemies when?
Jews were held in bondage for 70 years>>in Babylon, by the King of Babylon, is this not true as written?

King Cyrus helps to rebuilt the Temple, sets the Jews free from Babylon and helps the Jews to return to their homeland> Jerusalem, Cyrus returns their Holy Relics etc and later helps to rebuilt their Temple, with his own personal funds and He passes a Law Decree that the Temple can be rebuilt and no other King or Nation can stop them, does he not?

Book of Ezra records it all all also?

What about Simeon bar Kokhba? What was the Jewish thoughts about Kokhab in his time also?

No others claiming to be the Messiah?

Then there is Acts 6:34 “A certain one rose in the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, Law Teacher by all the people…” Jesus Apostles brought before Gamaliel, Sanhedrin Court why? And why does Gamaliel let them go? Stating there were many others before them let them be >>if this comes to not etc? Does it not seem there was others claiming to be the Messiah in Jesus time and before, but they came to not came and gone? Jesus followers in the Billions today?

Question there others in Jesus time claiming to be the Messiah, seems in what is written there was? And were tested? Did not fulfill the prophecies even thou they too worked miracles as in what is written also, right>>but they died out and came to not?
Peace

 

[Midge]

There are no Biblical prophecies that state:

“The Messiah shall do such and such…”

In fact there is not one Biblical prophecy that outright speaks of a person called “the Messiah.” The concept first developed in writing in the Jewish Midrash, post-Biblically.

Verses that Christians claim to be Messianic in the Old Testament do not state anywhere in them explicitly that they must be fulfilled by the Messiah. The term “Messiah” never appears anywhere near them.

So before we go on anywhere else, you will need to provide evidence that these verses are Messianic without a doubt from the Bible themselves and not by interpretation.

 

[rose321]

So before we go on anywhere else, you will need to provide evidence that these verses are Messianic without a doubt from the Bible themselves and not by interpretation.

Respectfully not stating Biblical verse I posted were messianic at all, only posted the Biblical verses when the Temple was not standing. Not interpretation either letting the Bible speak for itself by posting Biblical verse when the Temple was not standing.

So where does it come from within our own Holy Church, claiming Jesus was the long awaited Messiah, who fulfills what is spoken and written about him that a Savior ( Messiah anointed one) would come to suffer, be crucified, die, resurrect bodily and save us from our sins? Prophecies given by the Prophets of a foreshadow of things to come in the future?

Now really confused sorry. Which within our Holy Church themselves taking from OT Biblical verses to prove Jesus is the Messiah( anointed one) spoken of by the Prophets within their Prophecies given and that Jesus is the one who fulfills and accomplishes such? Thank you for your replies. Peace

 

[Midge]

Respectfully not stating Biblical verse I posted were messianic at all…

Yes, you did.

I am taking about this statement you made here, Rose:

Messiah> comes to fulfill the prophecy spoken by the Prophets about him.>Jesus!

Let’s deal with one argument of yours at a time, starting with this one.

Show me verses from the Bible in the Old Testament (not the New) where the wording states something along the line that “the Messiah shall do such and such…”

The verses have to explicitly state they are speaking of the Messiah and refer to the Messiah as such.

 

[rose321]

Respectfully not stating Biblical verse I posted were messianic at all…

Yes, you did.

Respectfully toward. Opinion only.

I was replying to what you posted about >>when the Temple is not standing, when the Jewish people are in diaspora>>>>which lead one to another question>I went in search of myself within OT>>>>>>>>>>>>My question to myself now was<>>>>>>> >>Was there ever a time when the Jewish Temple was not standing, and when the Jewish people were diaspora >>I found it in >>>>>>>>>>Isaiah thus posted Biblical verse when Temple was not standing and Jewish people were taken and held in bondage.

I am taking about this statement you made here, Rose:

Messiah> comes to fulfill the prophecy spoken by the Prophets about him.>Jesus!Let’s deal with one argument of yours at a time, starting with this one.

Not out to argue just asked>>>>>>>>> One simple question which was >.I know In the time of Jesus there were many others claiming to be the Messiah also, is this true?>Asking is this True?> Why posted Acts 5:34

I simply asked one question>>>Was there others in Jesus time claiming to be the Messiah also? Jesus being born, raised as a Jew by Jewish parents obeying and observing the Torah, yearly Holy Feast Days etc, so was there other Jews also claiming such? Then I posted Acts 5:34

Now look at the confusion which came to lead to more questions, confused me, with all that one stated within ones post kindly also, thank you! Asking could one please go back and read ones reply to me, hope that helps to understand why I posted in what follows >

Show me verses from the Bible in the Old Testament (not the New) where the wording states something along the line that “the Messiah shall do such and such”
That was not or ever my > One and only question, which was>>>In Jesus time were there others claiming to be the Messiah?

The verses have to explicitly state they are speaking of the Messiah and refer to the Messiah as such.

The Biblical verses I posted, doing so because of what you stated>>> the Temple was not standing and your reply of how >A Messiah took root from, confused me. Remember I am a Catholic.

My only > One simple question was > I know in the time of Jesus there were many claiming to be the Messiah also is that true?
Who better to ask and who might know, but one having better knowledge and understanding of Judaism, what is written within their Holy Scriptures and Historical also taking place in Jesus time within Judaism and other Jewish sources?

Maybe poor communication on my part>>> Sorry, or my misunderstanding in all you posted in your replies, to give me an answer to my one question?

I know in the time of Jesus there were many claiming to be the Messiah also is that true? >asking is this True?

First time hearing what you posted in your reply, that is what confused me where the idea of a Messiah came from, but was not my question.

Hope this clears this up.Not out to argue, have a clear conscious on that one, just wanted to know if it was true?

Want to thank you kindly for ones replies,Is all. New here.
Peace

 

[Midge]

Sorry, Rose, but this came from your own post.

If you can’t identify it, especially since you wrote it, I won’t converse with you any further.

I can’t make heads or tails of what you are writing, so I can’t answer anything you are saying. Nothing is clear, especially if I copy, cut, and paste something you wrote from your own post and you claim that this is the first time you have seen this.

So again, no this clears nothing up. But I do want to state again clearly that I am not continuing any conversation here with you personally as it is not clear that you do not want to argue and cause trouble.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

Show me verses from the Bible in the Old Testament

The Sola Scriptura crowd got to the Jews to

There’s no way to take the scriptures as Messianic unless you believe Jesus’ promise that he fulfilled them.

 

[Midge]

Actually my reply was only directed to Rose within the context of her comments.

As a Jew, I don’t view Jesus as some sort of mistake or accident but as a sage of the Jews of God directing the nations away from heathen gods to the God of Abraham.

While I may not agree with the direct interpretations of some Christians on how the Hebrew texts apply to Jesus of Nazareth, I don’t deny the faith of the Catholic Church in Her interpretation of them that inspires the Church’s faith in Christ. Because of such faith it leads them to God.

Again, while I don’t accept Jesus as Messiah, I do very much see Jews and Christians as partners chosen by God to work together to bring God’s redemption to the world. We might not at present see how we work together in the big picture, but work together we must. Our theologies don’t match, but we have in common the same foundation. It is a marvelous and rich heritage that we share.

Therefore I do agree with what the Pontifical Biblical Council has to say on the matter:

Christian faith recognises the fulfilment, in Christ, of the Scriptures and the hopes of Israel, but it does not understand this fulfilment as a literal one. Such a conception would be reductionist…Jesus is not confined to playing an already fixed role — that of Messiah — but he confers, on the notions of Messiah and salvation, a fullness which could not have been imagined in advance…It would be wrong to consider the prophecies of the Old Testament as some kind of photographic anticipations of future events. All the texts, including those which later were read as messianic prophecies, already had an immediate import and meaning for their contemporaries before attaining a fuller meaning for future hearers. The messiahship of Jesus has a meaning that is new and original.–The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible.

 

[meltzerboy2]

No Midge, Rose does not want to cause trouble or argue. She wants to understand the Jewish perspective on the Messiah and other issues, and her questions are intriguing ones for both Judaism and Christianity.

Insofar as there being no explicit reference to the Messiah in Prophets, of course there is no EXPLICIT reference. We know the prophets spoke in metaphors and riddles. The apologetics on the issue of the Messiah is based on implicit suggestion and, well, prophecy. However, even prophecy needs a context, to be sure, and the Jewish argument generally attempts to ground the prophecy according to the historical and cultural context, whereas the Christian perspective tends to work backwards from the words and deeds of Jesus to the predictions of the prophets, for example, Isaiah.