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StacieAdy
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You, my friend, are mistaken. But no matter.
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Publisher
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Jesus of Nazareth
Girolamo Savonarola
John Huss
George Fox
Menno Simons
Count Zinzendorf
Mary Dyer
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Jim Elliot
to name a few
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StacieAdy
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KofC660
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Jesus is God, impossible to be a “heretic”.
As for the rest of the heretics and whatnot you listed, if you want to associate yourself with that group, more power to you. I’ll pray for your conversion in the meantime.
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StacieAdy
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Obviously Christ wasn’t a heretic. But He was labeled as such. You proved Publisher’s point.
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Publisher
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Those of his day considered him a heretic…so I’m still in good company…we can pray for one another shall we, to find mutual faith in Christ and to walk in the Light in love and peace?
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ComradeAndrei
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Since Jesus is God, it is irrelevant that some of His time considered Him a “heretic” (actually, a blasphemer and someone who hung out with sinners, but that’s besides the point).
As to the rest of them, no one but the Catholic Church has the authority to say if someone is in heaven or not and the Church never declares anyone in hell. Thus, even heresiarchs like John Huss might be in heaven-but their actions were objectively heretical and wrong.
Protestantism, as a religion, is heretical. Anyone who leaves the Catholic Church, purposefully and knowingly, is guilty of the sin of heresy. Those born into protestantism are not guilty of the sin of heresy (because one cannot be born guilty of a sin like this that needs to actually be personally committed) but they are still material heretics as they hold to a religion that is heretical even though they are not culpable of that error.
The old prayers for Good Friday are truth-hard truth that the modern world cannot swallow. God desires that all men should be saved, that all should have the Gospel preached to them and that all should be converted away from their errors. Should we be shocked? The world will always hate the servants of the Master they hated first.
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StacieAdy
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No one…not even the Catholic Church…has the authority to say whether or not someone is in Heaven. Only God knows that.
And Protestants are not heretics.
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THutch04
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I think some people would be interested to learn that the Catholic Church does officially list Protestantism as a heresy. By itself that word doesn’t have to be so terrible, it’s just a label. But with the connotations that have come from the use of that word, it might be a better idea (especially in terms of evangelization) to not use it when referring to Protestants.
In response to the OP, I don’t really understand why large groups of Jews or Protestants would have an issue with the reinstitution of the Latin Mass. I’ll be honest I’m a Catholic myself and I didn’t know those prayers were included until I read this thread just now. People of various denominations have prayed for me to convert when they’ve realized what faith I practiced. I don’t think it’s really “wrong” to pray for anybody, even though admittedly I did not agree with them praying for me to convert. It’s not something I could get really angry about though. In my opinion there are much more important things to worry about than if Catholics are praying for non-Catholics to convert. I say the same thing about Protestants who pray for Catholics to convert; it’s just not something I personally can get too upset about. But that’s just me…
In response to the OP, I don’t really understand why large groups of Jews or Protestants would have an issue with the reinstitution of the Latin Mass. I’ll be honest I’m a Catholic myself and I didn’t know those prayers were included until I read this thread just now. People of various denominations have prayed for me to convert when they’ve realized what faith I practiced. I don’t think it’s really “wrong” to pray for anybody, even though admittedly I did not agree with them praying for me to convert. It’s not something I could get really angry about though. In my opinion there are much more important things to worry about than if Catholics are praying for non-Catholics to convert. I say the same thing about Protestants who pray for Catholics to convert; it’s just not something I personally can get too upset about. But that’s just me…
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ComradeAndrei
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Care to give anything at all to back up your assertions? You can repeat “protestants are not heretics” all you want, but it won’t make it any truer.
The Church, as the Mystical Body of Christ, and the Pope in particular (as the Vicar of Christ on earth) most certainly does have the authority to declare someone a saint (i.e. they lived a most virtuous life worthy of emulation and are in heaven) affirming the findings of the researchers of the saint’s cause through the proper channels that establish their sanctity.
As to Protestantism (and this is a rather broad term), this religion denies central tennents of the True Faith (i.e. Transubstantiation, the Assumption, the Immaculate Conception, the Infallibility of the Pope, etc.) and, thus, is properly and fittingly deemed a heresy.
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StacieAdy
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ComradeAndrei: You stating that Protestants are heretics is not going to make it any more true either, just because you feel you have backed your statement up. I do not wish to go back and forth with someone who feels that myself and my family are all heretics. We do not have a problem with the Catholic faith, and would never dream to cry “heresy” or anything else derogatory to one who practices Catholicism. We worship the same God, you and I. We are both Christians, you and I. That is enough for me. For you (and others) to call Protestants heretics, merely makes me not want to be anything like you.
Catholicism is a beautiful and rich faith, and there are certain denominations of Protestantism that are beautiful and rich too. Enough said.
THutch04: Perfectly said.
Catholicism is a beautiful and rich faith, and there are certain denominations of Protestantism that are beautiful and rich too. Enough said.
THutch04: Perfectly said.
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sadie2723
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Amen!
I think that a few posters have gotten a bit off track on this one, and as the OP, I hope to clarify the situation a bit. Here is the deal. Nobody here is saying that Protestants are bad people, or that any religious group is entirely composed of bad people. Nobody here is trying to determine who will and who will not get into heaven.
What I said in my original post is that Protestantism is considered heresy by the One Holy Catholic Church. If anyone can dispute that fact, I would love to see it. However, as I mentioned, I don’t consider Protestants damned to hell over it. I, after all, was once Protestant myself. I simply am making the statement that the Catholic Church does view Protestantism as heresy, and that the Catholic Church also believes that the Jews missed the boat for not recognizing Jesus as the messiah. For this reason, I believe that it is good and proper that we pray for these two groups on Holy Week. After all, I believe in the teaching of the Catholic Church, so why would I not be praying for those that have fallen away from its teaching or those that missed the boat of Christianity all together?
This, my friends, is the point. I think, for the reasons I have listed, that it is silly for people to get all upset about the Church taking a stand and essentially saying that the Jews missed the boat and the Protestants fell away from the teaching of the Catholic Church. After all, these things are true. They are also a reason for us to all pray that those groups eventually find the truth of the Catholic faith.
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StacieAdy
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My very first post to you, was that I didn’t understand why anyone would get upset about what you’ve mentioned here. We should all pray for one another, I think it’s fabulous. I just think all of us need to make sure that we don’t come across as superior, or correct, or anything of that nature. That is all.
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az_4_faith
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Well said.
We do pray for our separated brethren, those of the Protestant faiths and our Jewish brothers and sisters on Good Friday each year.
This is done because of love, not of hate. We wish all to receive the fullness of truth. After all, without the Jewish faith, we would have no Catholicism.
We all can’t be right, that’s for sure. There’s no way that Jesus suffered, died and rose again to establish thousands of different splintered Churches. This continues to cause Him great pain and sadness.
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sadie2723
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Ok, but I obviously believe that I AM correct. If I did not believe I was right, I would not belong to this church. The discussion of right and wrong is what this forum is all about.
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ComradeAndrei
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This is the problem, we do not bother to understand the nuances. As I said before, a material heretic is not culpable for the sin of heresy-but the creed they hold IS objectively heretical and pernicious in that any Catholic who would rashly follow it would be committing a serious sin against the True Faith and thus the danger of Protestantism. We are not saying you sacrifice babies and pray to Satan, but we cannot affirm error no matter what kind of nice package it comes in.
Well, we do have a problem with Protestantism because it has set itself up in opposition to the True Faith. You can be indifferent and say that everyone’s religion is equal, but the Church cannot. To expand on what I said above, “heretic” is not a derogatory term-it is a descriptive. The more common post-conciliar euphemism of “separated brethren” means the exact same thing as “material heretic”.
True, as long as you were validly baptized, we never deny that Protestants are Christians. Being merely Christian doesn’t make Protestantism orthodox, however.
In as far as they share some ecclesial elements that the Church has, sure.
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StacieAdy
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That is true, I didn’t word that well.
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StacieAdy
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This is very well written.
I just want to clarify that when I say “we” do not have a problem with the Catholic faith, I mean “we” as in my family. There are many Protestants out there who do have a problem with Catholicism, and I do not agree with them. I suppose I do take the word “heretic” as a derogatory term, and that is something I will try to work on.
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ComradeAndrei
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I’m glad you see where I’m coming from and that we (Catholics, orthodox ones at least) certainly don’t harbor any ill will toward you personally or Protestants in general (even the ones that hate us with a passion!).
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hosemonkey
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Amen! If one has a cancer, is it “tolerant” to ignore it because treatment will cause pain? Or is it charitable to remove the cancer that life might be preserved. For those of you who believe that protestants are not heretics, please look up the definition of heresy.
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