Jews & the 46 books of the OT

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Is there a Jewish sect that follows the 46 books of the OT , in other words - a Jewish group that includes the books removed by Luther in its “canon”?

How does the observance of Hanukah follow for those that do not include 1 & 2 Maccabees? Isn’t that the only reference to the miracle of the oil during the purification of the Temple?
 
Hi all!
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NotWorthy:
The Ethiopian Jews follow the 46 book canon.
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What source can you cite for this?

Although our Ethiopian brothers & sisters (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejtoc.html)
are undoubtedly Jews (our 16th century sage from Cairo, Rabbi David Ben Zimra, jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=141&letter=D&search=Radbaz, issued a ruling to this effect), their version of Judaism was somewhat primitive due to their having been cut off from the Jewish mainstream at a very early time. Since the vast majority of Ethiopian Jews are now here in Israel, they have adopted the general “canon” of 39 books.

There is a great deal about Hanukkah in the Talmud & other rabbinical writings. I Maccabees, while not canonical for us, is still very highly regarded as an historical source.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

What source can you cite for this?
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From Catholic Answers and numerous other sites:

When the Christians claimed that they had written new scriptures, Jews from a rabbinical school in Javneh met around year 80 and, among other things, discussed the canon. They did not include the New Testament nor the seven Old Testament works and portions of Daniel and Esther. This still did not settle the Pharisee canon, since not all Jews agreed with or even knew about the decision at Javneh. Rabbis continued to debate it into the second and third centuries. Even today, the Ethiopian Jews use the same Old Testament as Catholics.

Notworthy
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

What source can you cite for this?

Although our Ethiopian brothers & sisters (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ejtoc.html)
are undoubtedly Jews (our 16th century sage from Cairo, Rabbi David Ben Zimra, jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=141&letter=D&search=Radbaz, issued a ruling to this effect), their version of Judaism was somewhat primitive due to their having been cut off from the Jewish mainstream at a very early time. Since the vast majority of Ethiopian Jews are now here in Israel, they have adopted the general “canon” of 39 books.

There is a great deal about Hanukkah in the Talmud & other rabbinical writings. I Maccabees, while not canonical for us, is still very highly regarded as an historical source.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Hi ssv! -

BTW, Happy Hanukkah - http://re2.mm-c1.yimg.com/image/1280606081

Do you decorate the “Festival of Lights” with lights, such as christians do for Christmas? Around here, Jewish as well as Christian decorate. Some christians even display Manorahs.

I am curious about the Jewish canon. Were the books no longer accepted as canonical viewed as canonical previous to the council of Jamnia? ibri.org/RRs/RR013/13jamnia.html Why, in particular, were these texts removed?

Subrosa
 
Hi Subrosa!

Our view of the whole process bt which the Tanakh
was canonized is much more fluid than this Protestant view of a single session of the Sanhedrin at Yavneh saying, “Hey, here it is! We’re done!” See The Jewish Encyclopedia articles entitled “Bible Canon” (tinyurl.com/4q8o9) and “Apocrypha” (tinyurl.com/4vo93).

Our Sages excluded the so-called Apocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”) for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to contain/be full of/ nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn’t jibe with the Torah), as well as to be inauthentic and/or uninspired.

About Chanukah, see jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm (one article, basic) & ou.org/chagim/chanukah/default.htm (links to several articles, more detailed).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi Subrosa!

Our view of the whole process bt which the Tanakh
was canonized is much more fluid than this Protestant view of a single session of the Sanhedrin at Yavneh saying, “Hey, here it is! We’re done!” See The Jewish Encyclopedia articles entitled “Bible Canon” (tinyurl.com/4q8o9) and “Apocrypha” (tinyurl.com/4vo93).

Our Sages excluded the so-called Apocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”) for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to contain/be full of/ nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn’t jibe with the Torah), as well as to be inauthentic and/or uninspired.

About Chanukah, see jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm (one article, basic) & ou.org/chagim/chanukah/default.htm (links to several articles, more detailed).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Thanks, ssv - great sources/explanations!

Y’know what else? I see that you spelled Chanukah differently than I. I have actually seen several different spellings. It’s just strange translating to English, I guess.

Subrosa
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi Subrosa!

Our view of the whole process bt which the Tanakh
was canonized is much more fluid than this Protestant view of a single session of the Sanhedrin at Yavneh saying, “Hey, here it is! We’re done!” See The Jewish Encyclopedia articles entitled “Bible Canon” (tinyurl.com/4q8o9) and “Apocrypha” (tinyurl.com/4vo93).

Our Sages excluded the so-called Apocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”) for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to contain/be full of/ nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn’t jibe with the Torah), as well as to be inauthentic and/or uninspired.

About Chanukah, see jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm (one article, basic) & ou.org/chagim/chanukah/default.htm (links to several articles, more detailed).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Just out of curiosity and NOT to start an argument, do you know which books were considered to contain nonsense?

Also, what about the sections of Daniel and Esther that Catholics retain and Protestants reject? Are these included in the modern Tanakh, or did Protestants reject them, too, on the basis of earlier Jewish rejection?
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi Subrosa!

Our view of the whole process bt which the Tanakh
was canonized is much more fluid than this Protestant view of a single session of the Sanhedrin at Yavneh saying, “Hey, here it is! We’re done!” See The Jewish Encyclopedia articles entitled “Bible Canon” (tinyurl.com/4q8o9) and “Apocrypha” (tinyurl.com/4vo93).

Our Sages excluded the so-called Apocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the “Old Testament”) for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to contain/be full of/ nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn’t jibe with the Torah), as well as to be inauthentic and/or uninspired.

About Chanukah, see jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm (one article, basic) & ou.org/chagim/chanukah/default.htm (links to several articles, more detailed).

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Hi ssv! -

Yet another question pops into my ever-seeking mind!

It is my understanding of history that the Greek version of the Hebrew scripture, the Septuagint (which is used in Traditional Christianity), actually came from Palestine (Judah).

Let me elaborate, and please correct me if you disagree -

After Cyrus had let the Hebrews go from Babylonian exile, many found thier way to Alexandria. At the time of Jesus, there lived substantially more Jews in Egypt than in Palestine (Judah) and they spoke Greek. Ptolemy, king of Egypt, wanted a collection of the Hebrew scripture placed in the great library of Alexandria. So, he collected 70+ Jewish clerics, sages, academians, etc., to complete this project. (BTW, this is where the Septuagint gets it’s name…Sept=70) These people needed a complete set of the scripture and they obtained it from Palestine (Judah). What they got was written in Hebrew. They then translated it into Greek, which was the dominant language, a legacy of Alexander the Great.

I forgot my question…oh, yeah! It actually has become a few questions.

The Septuagint, as you know, contains “apocrypha”, and yet these books were supplied by, assumably, priests in the Temple along with other clerics. How were the “apocrypha” viewed at that time? Inspired or not?

If, at that time, they were viewed as inspired, how did this change over time?

If they were not viewed as inspired, why did the Palestinian (Judaean) clerics supply them? Were they kept simply as part of the historical record?

Is there a reason that I have not thought of?

G-d bless you and your family, ssv,
Subrosa
 
Hi all!
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subrosa:
After Cyrus…Alexander the Great.

I forgot my question…oh, yeah! It actually has become a few questions.

The Septuagint, as you know, contains “apocrypha”, and yet these books were supplied by, assumably, priests in the Temple along with other clerics. How were the “apocrypha” viewed at that time? Inspired or not?

If, at that time, they were viewed as inspired, how did this change over time?
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Your history is a bit off. Persian Emperor Cyrus allowed us to return from Babylonia to the Holy Land in the mid 6th century BCE. Alexander the Great (who is remembered very well in our traditions) overthrew the Persian Empire in the mid 4th century BCE & founded the city of Alexandria. Jews started moving there in numbers after Alexander’s death in 323 BCE. His general Ptolemy seized Egypt and built it into the nucleus of a kingdom ruled by him & his descendants until the last of them, Cleopatra, met her famous end. See jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/exile2.html.

It was Ptolemy II (reigned 285-247 BCE) who ordered that the Torah be translated into Greek. This coming January 10 will be one of 4 first-light-until-nightfall fast days on our calendar, on which we abstain from food & drink (but not from bathing, marital relations, and wearing jewelery, cosmetics & leather, all of which we abstain from on the 2 'round-the-clock fasts on our calendar). It is the 10th of the Hebrew month of Tevet (the “fast of the tenth [month]” referred to in Zechariah 8:19), on which we recall Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Jerusalem (see II Kings 25:1). But it also marks the translation of the Torah into Greek, i.e. the Septuagint. That the Torah was translated into another language is considered a cause for sadness & a reason to mourn.

We believe that Ptolemy II forced 70 sages to come to Alexandria & translate the Torah into Greek for him. I cite:
Even though the Talmud relates to us that this project was blessed with a miracle – the 70 scholars were all placed in separate cubicles and yet they all came up with the same translation – the general view of the rabbis of the time towards this project was decidedly negative. The Talmud records that when this translation became public “darkness descended on the world.”

This translation – the Septuagint – eventually became the basis for the Old Testament section of the Christian bible a few centuries later. The Greek translation of the Bible also further aided the advance of the agenda of the Hellenist Jews to bring Greek culture into Jewish life, and to attempt to reform Judaism in the image of Greek values and lifestyle.
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Link: aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/The_Tenth_of_Tevet.asp

Indeed, the Talmud says that the day on which the Torah was translated into another language was as unfortunate as the day on which the Golden Calf was made.

We understand that the 70 sages whom Ptolemy II brought to Alexandria to do the work translated only the five books of the Torah, not the entire Tanakh and certainly not the Apochrypha (see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1035&letter=B&search=Bible%20Translations#3077).
Kristina P.:
Just out of curiosity and NOT to start an argument, do you know which books were considered to contain nonsense?
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Well, regarding Ben Sirah (Ecclesiasticus), see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=836&letter=S&search=Ecclesiasticus#2665 & jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=836&letter=S&search=Ecclesiasticus#2666.

For the Book of Jubilees, see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=582&letter=J&search=Jubilees#1945.

For the Wisdom of Solomon, see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=211&letter=W&search=Wisdom%20of%20Solomon#626.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
 
Hi Kristina P.!

You’re welcome!

I’m curious about our signature. What’s an “NIV sticker”?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
That the Torah was translated into another language is considered a cause for sadness & a reason to mourn.
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I did not know this. I understand.
We believe that Ptolemy II forced 70 sages to come to Alexandria & translate the Torah into Greek for him.
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truly believable, given what kings do…
aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/The_Tenth_of_Tevet.asp

Indeed, the Talmud says that the day on which the Torah was translated into another language was as unfortunate as the day on which the Golden Calf was made.

We understand that the 70 sages whom Ptolemy II brought to Alexandria to do the work translated only the five books of the Torah, not the entire Tanakh and certainly not the Apochrypha (see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1035&letter=B&search=Bible%20Translations#3077).

Well, regarding Ben Sirah (Ecclesiasticus), see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=836&letter=S&search=Ecclesiasticus#2665 & jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=836&letter=S&search=Ecclesiasticus#2666.

For the Book of Jubilees, see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=582&letter=J&search=Jubilees#1945.

For the Wisdom of Solomon, see jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=211&letter=W&search=Wisdom%20of%20Solomon#626.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv 👋
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Wow! you give lotsa stuff to chew on! This is great!

G-d bless you and your family,
Subrosa
 
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