Jihad is a central component of Islam

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Nobody is a spokesperson for Islam, but they can follow the jihad doctrine in the Quran just the same.

This jihadi doctrine was not made up by the deobandis but my Muhammad bin Abdallah.

paarsurrey - keep deluding yourself that Islam does not permit aggressive war. Muhammad bin Abdallah himself conducted aggressive war and his followers did the same - all the way to Vienna and Tours.

I find your ad nauseum “Islam and Muhammad are peaceful” to be highly distasteful as my people have suffered under Islamic aggression.
 
The following is from Sheikh Abdul Hakim Murad, a traditional scholar of Islam:

Jihad is an Arabic word meaning ‘struggle’ or ‘effort’. In religious teaching, it denotes any struggle against the lower, selfish tendencies of the ego. One dimension of this may be to struggle against one’s own selfishness and cowardice in order to defend one’s people. One form of this was indicated by the Blessed Prophet when he said: ‘the best form of jihad is to speak a true word to a tyrannical ruler’. In doing so one risks one’s life, but is serving the weak and the oppressed; the Prophet therefore describes it as a form of jihad.

While non-retaliation against a personal injury is frequently a virtue (see the Holy Qur’an, chapter 41 verse 34), Islam believes that human communities have the right to collective self-defense, since non-resistance to aggression would result in a world dominated by tyrants (see Holy Qur’an, 22:40). Under some circumstances, Muslim scholars will allow oppressed peoples to rebel against their oppressors. They might, therefore, classify the American War of Independence as a form of jihad, broadly understood. When Bosnia was faced with ethnic cleansing in 1992, the Muslim authorities there authorized the use of force to defend the country’s Muslim minority. The alternative would have been mass murder and mass rape, and therefore jihad was lawful. Furthermore, some Muslim scholars will permit a non-defensive ‘idealist’ war to establish justice and freedom in a neighboring country. This is analogous, perhaps, to the decision of the United Kingdom to declare war on Germany on September 3, 1939, in response to the German invasion of Poland. There are more recent analogies as well, including very recent instances in which Western powers have used force to overthrow tyrants such as Saddam Hussein.

The poet Rumi explains the ethical principle of jihad as follows:

“Knowledge and wealth and office and rank and fortune are a mischief in the hands of the evil-natured. Therefore the Jihad was made obligatory on true believers for this purpose, namely, that they might take the spear-point from the hand of the madman.”

Fundamentally, as understood by orthodox Islamic jurists (as opposed to radical Islamists, who reject the classical position), jihad theory closely resembles some versions of Just War theory as this has been developed in several Christian churches since the time of St. Augustine. For some good debates about the resemblance see John Kelsay and James Turner Johnson (eds.), “Just War and Jihad: Historical and Theoretical Perspectives on War and Peace in Western and Islamic Traditions” (New York, Westport and London, 1991).

Suicide bombing is an innovated practice that has no basis in Islamic law. Particularly when targeted against innocent non-combatants it is a fundamental violation of Islam’s understanding of justice. ‘No soul is guilty of the sins of another’ (Holy Qur’an, chapter 6 verse 163). ‘Do not kill yourselves’ (Holy Qur’an, chapter 4 verse 29). For more, see my essay ‘Bombing without Moonlight’ and the more technical Sharia discussion by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti).
 
I wasn’t making an argument, only pointing out facts. In your eyes, you like to disparage facts as “truisims” when they don’t support your position.
No. I like to point out truisms as truisms. And certainly I’m likely to argue against those that argue against me - wouldn’t that be logical?
 
Suicide bombing is an innovated practice that has no basis in Islamic law. Particularly when targeted against innocent non-combatants it is a fundamental violation of Islam’s understanding of justice. ‘No soul is guilty of the sins of another’ (Holy Qur’an, chapter 6 verse 163). ‘Do not kill yourselves’ (Holy Qur’an, chapter 4 verse 29). For more, see my essay ‘Bombing without Moonlight’ and the more technical Sharia discussion by Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti).
Suicide bombing is inovative, only insofar as bombs weren’t around when Muhammed was.

The purpose of martyrdom was advocated by Muhammed.

As to ‘innocents’ that depends on how you define the people you’re killing - a bomber would say they’re legitimate non-combatants.
 
The poet Rumi explains the ethical principle of jihad as follows:
How many Moslems are Sufi? The problems again arise in the idea of ‘defending one’s community’.

The fact you’re allowed to go out and proselytize is part of Jihad - struggle for your faith. If I did the same for my own faith, in an Islamic nation that act itself would be seen as an ‘attack on your community’, for I am promoting something; Christianity - that goes against your faith.

Moslems may in fact describe my faith as evil
e.g.
The Muslim must strive to employ Muslims because they are less evil, in general, than the kuffaar, and less likely to commit haraam actions that go against sharee’ah or to make others commit them. If a Muslim does have a kaafir servant, he should strive to call him to Islam and to guide him.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=31242&ln=eng
 
How many Moslems are Sufi? The problems again arise in the idea of ‘defending one’s community’.
At one point in time the vast majority of the Muslims followed a sufi tariqa, as it was considered essential to maintain the correct balance between outward practice and inward spiritual cleansing of the heart. Part of the problem these days is that Muslims have lost the practice on training the spirit and thus have been left with a black and white interpretation of Islam.
The fact you’re allowed to go out and proselytize is part of Jihad - struggle for your faith. If I did the same for my own faith, in an Islamic nation that act itself would be seen as an ‘attack on your community’, for I am promoting something; Christianity - that goes against your faith.
Which Islamic Community do you speak of? I lived in Malaysia for a few years… plenty of Churches and Christian book shops there.
Sorry I run a Muslim forum and I don’t even allow islam-qa links on there. According to that site even I am a heretic. So don’t expect me to take notice of anything you post here from them. I reject all extremist interpretations of Islam, whether they are from Muslims, or from Catholics like on this forum.
 
This jihadi doctrine was not made up by the deobandis but my Muhammad bin Abdallah.
Hi

If agressive war was allowed by the truthful Prophet Muhammad Khatamun Nabiyyeen, then please quote verses from Quran with the true context. You will never find any.

Thanks
 
I implore everyone who wants to have a proper understanding of Jihad to listen to the lecture on the subject called “The Concept of Jihad In Islam” by Habab Ali al-Jifri from Yemen, who is a scholar and a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and Hamza Yusuf who is an American convert to Islam. It’s a series of MP3 files at the bottom of the page at alhabibali.org/english/ .

Agree or disagree, at least it will be from a position of knowledge and not one of ignorance.
 
At one point in time the vast majority of the Muslims followed a sufi tariqa, as it was considered essential to maintain the correct balance between outward practice and inward spiritual cleansing of the heart. Part of the problem these days is that Muslims have lost the practice on training the spirit and thus have been left with a black and white interpretation of Islam.
So when Muhammed over-saw the execution of the Bannu Quaresh, this was just an allegory?
Which Islamic Community do you speak of? I lived in Malaysia for a few years… plenty of Churches and Christian book shops there.
Malaysia is not an ‘Islamic Republic’. Don’t forget it was influenced by Britain for some years; it’s legal system is based on English common law, not Sharia. However Moslems must follow Islamic law on certain matters. And the form of Islam practiced is tempered by pre-Islamic ‘traditional beliefs’. Even this liberal stance however must battle with Islam…
All ethnic Malays are Muslim as defined in the Malaysian constitution. [36] Additionally, all non-Muslims who marry a Muslim must renounce their religion and convert to Islam. Meanwhile, Non-Muslims experience restrictions in activities such as construction of religious buildings and the celebration of certain religious events in some states.[37][38] Muslims are obliged to follow the decisions of Syariah courts. As a legal matter, Muslims may not apostatise very freely, as doing so involves the Sharia court. The Sharia court is governed by judges who are trained in Sharia law. Generally, one who wishes to leave Islam makes a legal declaration, but this is still not recognised by the Malaysian civil courts. One has to obtain a declaration of apostasy from a Syariah court and the court will only grant the apostasy after the court is truly convinced that the petitioner no longer has faith in Islam. This may be considered a very tolerant position for a Syariah court.

Malaysians tend to personally respect one another’s religious beliefs, with inter-religious problems arising mainly from the political sphere. However, there is a growing divide because many Chinese and Indians feel oppressed by recent religiously-related political sentiments that threaten freedom of religion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia#Religion
Try Saudi Arabia.
Sorry I run a Muslim forum and I don’t even allow islam-qa links on there. According to that site even I am a heretic. So don’t expect me to take notice of anything you post here from them. I reject all extremist interpretations of Islam, whether they are from Muslims, or from Catholics like on this forum.
I’m not Catholic, so do I pass? 😉

However they’re not the only ones we quote here!

Which site do you run?
 
I implore everyone who wants to have a proper understanding of Jihad to listen to the lecture on the subject called “The Concept of Jihad In Islam” by Habab Ali al-Jifri from Yemen, who is a scholar and a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and Hamza Yusuf who is an American convert to Islam. It’s a series of MP3 files at the bottom of the page at alhabibali.org/english/ .

Agree or disagree, at least it will be from a position of knowledge and not one of ignorance.
I’ve read his open letter in response to the Pope’s lecture, and it’s simply full of just-so statements regarding history.

The fact is that Islam imposed restrictions upon conquored non-Moslems - this itself coerced many to convert.

Something Al Habib Ali’s site simply misses.

Dhimmitude was severe discrimination… if not actual persecution.
 
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 555:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah guarantees (the person who carries out Jihad in His Cause and nothing compelled him to go out but Jihad in His Cause and the belief in His Word) that He will either admit him into Paradise (Martyrdom) or return him with reward or booty he has earned to his residence from where he went out.”
islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/093.sbt.html#009.093.555
Not Jihad is in the context of martydom (death).
 
I’ve read his and it’s simply full of just-so statements regarding history.
Red-herring.
The fact is that Islam imposed restrictions upon conquored non-Moslems - this itself coerced many to convert.
It’s also a fact that many people converted to escape the persecution and oppression they were facing at the hands of Muslim leaders. 2.5% jizyah in return for protection was a far less amount than the amount that was being extorted from them previously.
Dhimmitude was severe discrimination… if not actual persecution.
Saying something over and over doesn’t make it any more factual.
 
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 555:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah guarantees (the person who carries out Jihad in His Cause and nothing compelled him to go out but Jihad in His Cause and the belief in His Word) that He will either admit him into Paradise (Martyrdom) or return him with reward or booty he has earned to his residence from where he went out.”
islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/bukhari/093.sbt.html#009.093.555
Not Jihad is in the context of martydom (death).
I take it you’re not going to listen to the lectures then. If you don’t understand what Jihad entails then you will forever be hamstrung by your limited and biased understanding of the matter.

Secondly, taking a hadith here and there to prove a point is a morally corrupt practice, Islamically speaking at least.
 
Red-herring.
It’s not. It goes direct to the way Islam spread - by war, and oppression! 🙂 You can call pertinent argument a red-herring!
It’s also a fact that many people converted to escape the persecution and oppression they were facing at the hands of Muslim leaders. 2.5% jizyah in return for protection was a far less amount than the amount that was being extorted from them previously.
So Christians had previously been taxed by Christians? What is it you’re saying here?

And you’re mixing up the jizyah (10%) imposed on non-believers with zakat (2.5%) imposed on believers!

The mere fact that they impose a higher tax on non-believers is ‘compelling’
Saying something over and over doesn’t make it any more factual.
You are correct. Ignoring evidence doesn’t make for an argument!
 
I take it you’re not going to listen to the lectures then. If you don’t understand what Jihad entails then you will forever be hamstrung by your limited and biased understanding of the matter.
Your argument here is typically Islamic - it entails one believing what you promote and if one doesn’t then they’re biased! End of discussion

This is Islamic argument in a nut-shell… “We’re here to tell you exactly what to believe… if you don’t, well you’re just ignorant!”😉
Secondly, taking a hadith here and there to prove a point is a morally corrupt practice, Islamically speaking at least.
Re-working my argument is Islamically, proper practice. Had my argument relied solely on this hadith, or other singular examples of hadith, then you’d be close to making a point.

As I didn’t do this, you’ve in fact advertised how honest Islamic debators can be!😛
 
This is Islamic argument in a nut-shell… “We’re here to tell you exactly what to believe… if you don’t, well you’re just ignorant!”😉
I’m here to share my knowledge with you, not tell you what to believe. But you need to want to listen. You can guide a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink.
 
I’m here to share my knowledge with you, not tell you what to believe. But you need to want to listen. You can guide a horse to water, but you can’t force it to drink.
And thus for serval posts you’ve set no argument, just insults about ignorance!

Deal with facts presented. You might actually win someone over by impressing them with a display of constructed argument!
 
It’s not. It goes direct to the way Islam spread - by war, and oppression! 🙂 You can call pertinent argument a red-herring!
Where exactly does it do that? Habib Ali clearly states the following:
The authoritative and traditional Islamic rules of war can be summarized in the following principles:
  1. Code:
     Non-combatants are not permitted or legitimate targets.  This was emphasized explicitly time and again by the Prophet, his Companions, and by the learned tradition since then.
  1. Code:
     Religious belief alone does not make anyone the object of attack.  The original Muslim community was fighting against pagans who had also expelled them from their homes, persecuted, tortured, and murdered them.  Thereafter, the Islamic conquests were political in nature.
  1. Code:
     Muslims can and should live peacefully with their neighbors.  And if they incline to peace, do thou incline to it; and put thy trust in God (al-Anfal 8:61).  However, this does not exclude legitimate self-defense and maintenance of sovereignty.
How on earth can that letter go directly to the issue of Islam spreading by war? By the fact that it allows standing up against oppression and injustice?
So Christians had previously been taxed by Christians? What is it you’re saying here?
What I’m saying is this, and that is if you want to know why Islam spread as far and wide as it did through Christian communities then you need to examine the conditions prevailing among the people of the time, where there still existed tribal communities often at war with one another, and Islam seemed a unifying force to them. People seem to think that just because there exists an antogism between some Christians and Muslims these days, this was always the case, however it is far from true. For exmaple, after the battle of Qadisiyya (14 AH) after the victory of the Muslims over the Persian army (under Rustam), many Christians belonging to the Beduin tribes on both sides of the Euphrates came to the Musim general and said, “The tribes that at the first embraced Islam were wiser than we. Now that Rustam hath been slain, we will accept the new belief” (see Muir’s Caliphate, pp 121-2). Similarly in northern Syria, most of the Christian Beduin tribes joined themselves to the followers of the Prophet (Caetani, vol iii p 814). Yes, Muslims were involved in battles at the time involving the “sword”, however conversion to Islam was not the motive as is often made out.

Or, for example, the battle of the Bridge (13AH) where a disasterous defeat was imminent for the Muslims, who were hemmed in between the Euphrates and the Persians, were saved when the Christian chief of Banu Tayy sprang forward to the side of the Muslims to assist them in an orderly retreat. When the enemies of the Muslims stepped up their campain to prevent this, the Christian tribes of Banu Namir and Banu Taghlib turned up and helped the Muslims and turned the battle in their favour.

Bani Taghlib remained a Christian tribe for some time, and were never pressured to abandon their old faith and it was ordered by the Caliph Umar r.a. that they should be left undisturbed in the practice of it.

In fact they were called upon to pay the jizyah but opposed it as they felt it to be humiliating to their pride to pay a tax that was levied in return for their protection, and petitioned the Caliph who then reduced the jizyah to the same amount as that payed by the Muslims, the 2.5% I mentioned.

The tolerance extended by the victorious Muslims of the first century after Hijrah infers that those that did convert did so out of their own choice and free will. The fact that there are still Christian Arabs living today amongst the Muslim is tesatment that the “convert or die” attitude is merely a myth. If it was the case, Greece could never have remained a Christian country after being ruled by the Ottomans for over 500 years.
And you’re mixing up the jizyah (10%) imposed on non-believers with zakat (2.5%) imposed on believers!
The mere fact that they impose a higher tax on non-believers is ‘compelling’
Please… the jiziyah was imposed only on men as an exemption for having to fight to protect the nation, and which cannot be extracted by force. In some cases, non-Muslims forewent the payment and fought amongst the Muslims. Compare this to the zakat payable by every Muslim, man, woman and child, on their wealth, their livestock, their crops (up to 10%), etc.

Or take, for example, the writings of Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch or Antioch, writing in the latter half of the twelth century after five centuries of Muslim rule, where after recounting the persecutions of Heraclius, writes:

“This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever he will, and uplifting the humble - beholding the wickedness of the Romans who, throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity - brought from the region of the south the Sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And, if in truth, we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at the time of the great church of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at peace” (see Micheal the Elder, vol. ii pp 412-413).

When the Muslim army reached the valley of the Jordan and Abu Ubaydah pitched his camp at Fihl, the Christian inhabitants of the country wrote to the Arabs and said, “O Muslims, we prefer you to the Byzantines, though they are of our own faith, because you keep better faith with us and are more merciful to us and refrain from doing us injustice and your rule over us is better than theirs, for they have robbed us of our goods and our homes” (Azdi, p 97).

The people of Emessa closed the gates of their city against the army of Heraclius and told the Muslims that they preferred their government and justice to the injustice and oppression of the Greeks. (Baladhuri p137).

A similar thing happened in Syria against the Romans in 644-649 when the Arabs drove them out. And again in Damascus in 637, as well as Emessa, Arethusa, Hieropolis and even Jerusalem. The fear of religious compulsion on the part of the heretical emperor was what made the promise of Muslim toleration appear more attractive to them - not the other way around as is often asserted.

For example, when Jerusalem submitted to Caliph Umar, the following conditions were drawn up:

“In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionite! This is the security which 'Umar, the servant of God, the commander of the faithful, grants to the people of Aelia. He grants to all, whether sick or sound, security for their lives, their possessions, their churches and their crosses, and for all that concerns their religion. Their churches shall not be changed into dwelling places, nor destroyed, neither shall they nor their appurtenacnes be in any way diminshed, nor the crosses , and for all that concerns their religion. THeir chuches shall not be changed into dwelling places, nor destroyed, neither shall they nor their appurtenances be in any way diminished, nor the crosses of the inhabitants nor aught of their of their possessions, nor shall any constraint be put upon them in the matter of their faith, nor shall any one of them be harmed”. (Tabari i. p 2405).

I could continue on with many, many more examples, and I apologise for the length of the post so far, however I think it’s important to realise that the picture being portrayed of the spread of Islam by many people today, out of ignorance as I claim, is far, far from the truth. Nothing personal, but there are many of these accounts to be found in history and whilst I fully admit things were not always so rosy, they amount to a minority of cases compared to the norm, which was tolerance.
 
And thus for serval posts you’ve set no argument, just insults about ignorance!
!
I’ve apologised in another thread for my outburst, and will happily do so again.

However, to be fair, many of the statements here towards Islam are no less insulting, in which case all I ask for is the same treatment in return.
 
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