Jihad is a central component of Islam

[Montalban]

Sorry I have not said anything to deceive anyone, if I have then perhaps one of the other forum members can point it out to me.

Seriously, are you reading my posts? Let me say it again:

Non-Muslim women or children do not pay jizyah. Never. ever.

Is there something in that you don’t understand?

Actually you don’t. If you’d read my previous post to you on this you’d have noted where I addressed this.

Narrated Amr bin Al-Harith: Zainab, the wife of Abdullah said, "I was in the Mosque and saw the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saying, O women ! Give alms even from your ornaments.' " Zainab used to provide for Abdullah and those orphans who were under her protection. So she said to Abdullah, "Will you ask Allah's Apostle whether it will be sufficient for me to spend part of the Zakat on you and the orphans who are under my protection?" He replied "Will you yourself ask Allah's Apostle ?" (Zainab added): So I went to the Prophet and I saw there an Ansari woman who was standing at the door (of the Prophet ) with a similar problem as mine. Bilal passed by us and we asked him, Ask the Prophet whether it is permissible for me to spend (the Zakat) on my husband and the orphans under my protection.’ And we requested Bilal not to inform the Prophet about us. So Bilal went inside and asked the Prophet regarding our problem. The Prophet (p.b.u.h) asked, “Who are those two?” Bilal replied that she was Zainab. The Prophet said, “Which Zainab?” Bilal said, “The wife of `Adullah (bin Masud).” The Prophet said, “Yes, (it is sufficient for her) and she will receive a double rewards (for that): One for helping relatives, and the other for giving Zakat.”
islamicweb.com/begin/myth1.htm
And that’s a pro-Islamic site
So she’s allowed to spend her money *for *charity on her own family!

When then read it again, because you’ve read it wrong. And zakat is payable on stock in trade.

I simply said Zakat is not payable on trade

Paying with one’s sons? Here we go… another tangent.

You have trouble understanding what’s a tangent and what’s argument pertinent.

The argument here is that Dhimmi are oppressed.

Paying with one’s sons is proof of that oppression. Christian familes were obliged to hand their sons over to Islamic service.

Try and keep up.

 

[Montalban]

More insults?

Not at all. Muhammed encouraged people to lie… not per se but for specific reasons such as to kill enemies of Islam, or to spread/protect Islam (al-Takeyya or al-Taqiyya).

Here’s one example…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369

.

I’m sorry you find this insulting. Perhaps it’s a sign you’re in the wrong religion - most Moslems wouldn’t find anything wrong with following their prophet’s example.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

So she’s allowed to spend her money *for *charity on her own family!

That’s because people are classified into two categories… those that give zakat, and those that can receive zakat. It makes sense, you are either in a position to give, or a position to take.

If a womans husband or children fall into the latter category, that meaning not owning enough to meet the threshold to pay zakat, then the wife is allowed to give them zakat from her own posessions. Note she can’t give zakat to her husband if he is already paying zakat.

This simply proves what I mentioned earlier, that a womans possessions remain her own even after marriage.

I suggest you start dealing with people with real Islamic knowledge and not anti-Islamic sites that simply twist everything their own way.

 

[Montalban]

That’s because people are classified into two categories… those that give zakat, and those that can receive zakat. It makes sense, you are either in a position to give, or a position to take.

I agree; and as giving to a charity includes your own husband it simply redefined the word charity

If a womans husband or children fall into the latter category, that meaning not owning enough to meet the threshold to pay zakat, then the wife is allowed to give them zakat from her own posessions. Note she can’t give zakat to her husband if he is already paying zakat.

This simply proves what I mentioned earlier, that a womans possessions remain her own even after marriage.

What it means is that one can spend one’s money on one’s family, and call it ‘charity’. Islam’s great ‘obligation’ to pay charity can begin at home.

I suggest you start dealing with people with real Islamic knowledge and not anti-Islamic sites that simply twist everything their own way.

Where have I done this? I used an Islamic site just then!

So where’s this leave us?

Islam requires its followers the obligation to pay a charity that can be directed to one’s family.

It then forces non-Moslems to pay a higher levy that can include one’s own children. Can non-Moslems pay the tribute tax to their own families?

And you think they’re not being oppressed! LOL!

 

[Abu_Ismail]

Not at all. Muhammed encouraged people to lie… not per se but for specific reasons such as to kill enemies of Islam, or to spread/protect Islam (al-Takeyya or al-Taqiyya).

Let me quote you a few more things to show you how wrong you are. You do accept quotes from Hadiths and Qur’an as evidence don’t you? You seem to use it quite frequently yourself.

In the Qur’an, Allah Most High says:

“Allah guides not the profligate liar” (40:28).

“May liars perish” (51:10).

The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:

“Lying leads one to wickedness and wickedness leads one to hell. A man keeps lying until Allah records that he is an inveterate liar.”

“The marks of a hypocrite are three: when he speaks he lies, when he makes a promise he breaks it, and when entrusted with something he betrays the trust.”

“A believer’s natural disposition might comprise any trait other than treachery and untruthfulness.”

“On the Day of Judgement, the feet of the person who bore false witness will not stir from their place before their owner is condemned to hell.”

“Shall I tell you the worst enormities? - worshipping others with Allah, showing disrespect to parents, giving a false statement, and testifying to the truth of a falsehood.” And he kept repeating it until we were telling ourselves [N: out of sympathy for him because of the strain of repeating it], “If only he would be silent.”

You may be able to fool people who don’t know any better, but you won’t fool somehow who has a bit of knowledge about Islam.

 

[Montalban]

here are eight categories of people who may receive the collected Zakat:[1]
Povs (those who do not have enough to cover their basic needs.
The Destitute (those with no property or income at all)
The Collectors
People Whose Hearts are to be Reconciled (Normally new Muslims or those close to becoming Muslim. Even non-muslims could be included)
Freeing Slaves
Debtors (to help those heavily indebted with paying their debts)
In the Way of Allah (normally taken to mean helping those fighting jihad)
Travellers (who find themselves in difficult circumstances)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat
Zakat can be used to lure people to change faith. This is one way of drawing people to Islam

 

[Montalban]

Let me quote you a few more things to show you how wrong you are. You do accept quotes from Hadiths and Qur’an as evidence don’t you? You seem to use it quite frequently yourself.

In the Qur’an, Allah Most High says:

“Allah guides not the **profligate **liar” (40:28).

I just noted that. I said that it doesn’t encourage lying for it’s own sake. You have to have a reason, such as spreading Islam, killing enemies of Isla, etc.

You may be able to fool people who don’t know any better, but you won’t fool somehow who has a bit of knowledge about Islam.

So you’re saying Muhammed shouldn’t have allowed that man to lie? Muhammed did something un-Islamic!

Please show commentary to back up this extraordinary attack on the prophet:thumbsup:

 

[Abu_Ismail]

I agree; and as giving to a charity includes your own husband it simply redefined the word charity

If your husband is poor and needs “charity”, then why not?

Islam’s great ‘obligation’ to pay charity can begin at home.

If the husband is a valid recipient of zakat.

Where have I done this? I used an Islamic site just then!

I’m referring to the islamweb url in the previous post.

So where’s this leave us?

I don’t know where it leaves you, but I’m ok.

Perhaps just agree to disagree?

 

[Montalban]

If your husband is poor and needs “charity”, then why not?

It’s hardly *charity *then. I’m aware of the phrase “Charity begins at home” but if you’re obliged to pay a 2.5% tax and you can just re-direct that home, that’s a good way of getting out of it.

If the government said to me “You have to pay a levy, but you’re allowed to give this to your kids” I for one would be stoked. However if at the same time they demanded 10% off my neighbours and didn’t allow them the same ‘charity at home’ get out clause, then it’s a sign of unfairness.

I hope you’ve got that now!

I’m referring to the islamweb url in the previous post.

So was I. They’re pro-Islamic!
You keep accusing me of things without reading properly.

I don’t know where it leaves you, but I’m ok.

Perhaps just agree to disagree?

You’ve still not even come to terms with the ‘boy tax’!

 

[Montalban]

Islam’s always been a religion of expediency.

You’re forced to pay a tax, which you can pay to your family - non-Moslems pay a higher tax without the same get-out clause.

You’re allowed to tell lies, if necessary

You’re allowed to *jihad *against those that attack Islam - which could be anybody you think’s attacking Islam!

It’s a great religion.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

If the government said to me “You have to pay a levy, but you’re allowed to give this to your kids” I for one would be stoked.

It’s called a Tax Deduction

And as I’ve said, non-muslim woman does not have to pay a levy. How many more times are you going to repeat this untruth?

 

[Abu_Ismail]

You’re forced to pay a tax, which you can pay to your family - non-Moslems pay a higher tax without the same get-out clause.

You accuse me of telling half-truths, now look how many details you had to leave out just to get to this punch line!

You’re allowed to tell lies, if necessary

You’re allowed to tell lies in three, and only three circumstances:

1. To people you are at war with. This does not mean someone who happens to disagree with you.
2. To mend relations between two friends; and
3. To your wife for something minor if it will upset her (eg does my bum look big in this? Of course not dear!)

That’s it. The hadiths you quote are contextual and not generally to be taken as a general ruling that lying is permissible. It’s one of the kabaair (major sins) in Islam.

You’re allowed to *jihad *against those that attack Islam - which could be anybody you think’s attacking Islam!

You’re argument is nothing but one huge strawman.

It’s a great religion.

At least we agree on something.

 

[Montalban]

It’s called a Tax Deduction

And as I’ve said, non-muslim woman does not have to pay a levy. How many more times are you going to repeat this untruth?

Why do you keep repeating this?

 

[Montalban]

You’re allowed to tell lies in three, and only three circumstances:

Where did I say you’re allowed to lie, in general? You’ve got hot under the collar over this and made a mistake.

1. To people you are at war with. This does not mean someone who happens to disagree with you.
2. To mend relations between two friends; and
3. To your wife for something minor if it will upset her (eg does my bum look big in this? Of course not dear!)

That’s it. The hadiths you quote are contextual and not generally to be taken as a general ruling that lying is permissible. It’s one of the kabaair (major sins) in Islam.
So Muhammed was personally at war with this man he wanted murdered?

You’re argument is nothing but one huge strawman.

So you say!

At least we agree on something.

Only if you re-write what I said! But that’s your point here.

You’ve made dozens of accusations - including that I quote from non-Islamic sources, when I quoted from an Islamic one.

You won’t deal with the ‘boy-tax’. You’ve made a mistake about lying in Islam.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

Why do you keep repeating this?

Because you keep pointing out the fact that not all woman pay zakat, which I have explained, is irrelevant since no woman pay jiziya. You then threw in a red herring about woman being able to pay zakat to their impoverished husbands, even though what a Muslim does has to do with her money bears no relevance at all to the discussion.

 

[Abu_Ismail]

You won’t deal with the ‘boy-tax’. You’ve made a mistake about lying in Islam.

I wont deal with it because I have no idea what you’re going on about. Boy tax?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Whatever the rate, the Jizyah is an evil tax because it was made under duress. You pay or you die - according to Ibn Rushd.

 

[Montalban]

I wont deal with it because I have no idea what you’re going on about. Boy tax?

Although it was a different thread that I FIRST raised it with you, I **did **raise it with you

Here’s what I wrote then

Montalban:

In accordance with the Pact of Umar, dhimmis had no right to bear arms of any kind.[34] The few exceptions to this rule were some Jewish tribes in the Atlas Mountains and in the Central Asia.[97] Despite the prohibition to carry weapons, Muslim jurists allowed using a dhimmi as an auxiliary soldier “as one would use a dog”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Personal_safety

And, ever heard of Devshirme? Moslems would take Christian boys from their families and force them to become Moslem soldiers; most infamoulsy the Jannisary

And I’ve raised it with you several times and you’ve not dealt with it, except to claim ‘red-herring’ and the like, and now you’ve no idea about it at all! Well done!

 

[Montalban]

Whatever the rate, the Jizyah is an evil tax because it was made under duress. You pay or you die - according to Ibn Rushd.

Indeed, and it’s imposed on a non-believer - therefore it’s a compulsion!

 

[Abu_Ismail]

And I’ve raised it with you several times and you’ve not dealt with it, except to claim ‘red-herring’ and the like, and now you’ve no idea about it at all! Well done!

I’ve not dealt with it because I have not kept up. Sorry.

Now let me get this straight. You’re taking an example of a single act performed in a single region and asserting that this act has some basis in Islamic law?