Jocose lies, and the like

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In one catechism, it says that jocose lies are venial sins. In another, it says that they are not sinful, so long as the person knows it is a joke. I’ve researched the topic, and there really isn’t a straight answer. It seems like most accept that it is NEVER okay to lie (even to save others). PERIOD. No exceptions. Some mention mental reservations, but no matter what there’s always some wiggle room.

If jocose lies are sinful, then that means that British and Irish humor are ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN. That means tall tales are sins. That can even be used as an argument against fiction (novels, drama, etc.). I’ve actually heard of those who believe that fiction is sinful…

This bothers me, because many members of my family can’t say two sentences without using sarcasm…(see, I just exaggerated and told a lie…of course they can say two truthful sentences…).

Did Jesus not speak using parables? Weren’t there people in the old testament who were justified in telling lies? (I don’t know…I’ve never really read the Bible).

Is this being legalistic, or just Catholic?
 
A priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar…
Oh wait, I can’t tell you that because it’s not true!

Sometimes fiction is more true than fact.
And humor is more true than statistics.
 
JimG said:
A priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar…
Oh wait, I can’t tell you that because it’s not true!

Sometimes fiction is more true than fact.
And humor is more true than statistics.
Click to expand...
Hee, well-said. I’m also minded of something Neil Gaiman wrote about some fictional stories telling more truth than the cold, bare facts would.
 
If they know it’s fiction, or confabulation to some degree, it isn’t a lie.
 
So at what point is the line crossed between fiction, jokes, exaggeration, and lies?

It would seem to me to be the “intent to deceive”. Isn’t *intent *one of the factors of sin?

I’m still leery about the whole “lying to the Nazis” scenario. I.e. if I lie to a Nazi to save the Jews I’m hiding I’m a sinner, but if I plug him one with my pistol as the enemy, hey, that’s OK…

I assume, also, that by the standards of the current Catechism, all espionage agents, undercover cops, etc, are all living in a state of perpetual sin.
 
JimG said:
A priest, a minister, and a rabbi walk into a bar…
Oh wait, I can’t tell you that because it’s not true!
Click to expand...
Might be true. I’m sure it happened at least once during a break at the Second Vatican Council.
 
Ghoti said:
So at what point is the line crossed between fiction, jokes, exaggeration, and lies?

It would seem to me to be the “intent to deceive”. Isn’t *intent *one of the factors of sin?

I’m still leery about the whole “lying to the Nazis” scenario. I.e. if I lie to a Nazi to save the Jews I’m hiding I’m a sinner, but if I plug him one with my pistol as the enemy, hey, that’s OK…

I assume, also, that by the standards of the current Catechism, all espionage agents, undercover cops, etc, are all living in a state of perpetual sin.
Click to expand...
The “lying to the Nazis to hide the Jewish people” is a whole different thing: tney wouldn’t have the right to know where the Jews were, and I think if someone told them where, it would be complying, at least in a small way, with the sinful acts of cruelty and genocide they were likely to commit. I think God would overlook a “white” lie told to save someone’s life from someone clearly bent on killing them.
 
As I recall the basic definition of lying is: to intentionally mislead one who is entitled to the truth.
 
That means tall tales are sins
Click to expand...
I don’t think those are sins. Parables are used in the bible. As for the whole “nazi” stuff, I heard in one thread that you couldn’t lie but you could say “I saw a couple Germans walk by earlier”, not sure if that’s true or not. It would also be a sin to be an accessory to the Nazi’s sins.
 
The whole issue of lying depends on what you accept as the definition. The intent to deceive is one, but the other is simply to tell a falsehood. That really stinks if the latter is what happens to be true.

As for the Nazi issue… I read on another catholic website where the thought was basically it’s okay to kill in order to save the world, but not to lie. A few people also said that Cops who pretend to be young girls in order to lure perverts online are in sin. These opinions make me sick to my stomach…
 
Joe_Kelley said:
As I recall the basic definition of lying is: to intentionally mislead one who is entitled to the truth.
Click to expand...
And it’s the *entitled to the truth *part that explains the lying to the Nazis conundrum. The Nazis were not entitled to the truth, because their goals were so horrible.

The *intentionally mislead *part helps us out with novels, tall tales, and the like. No one writing a novel or telling a tale in trying to make the reader/hearer believe that the story is true in the sense of actually happening in history–even those writing historical novels make it clear that conversations held in private, etc are not actual events. The truth in novels and tales comes in the moral or message being transmitted. In that sense Aesop’s Fables are 'true" even though we all know that animals do not actually behave that way.
 
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