Joel Osteen/Prosperity Gospel

[Amo_a_Jesus]

My family is going to another church, right now is not Osteen church, they say they are a non-denominational christian church, they are really organized, big campus, big chapel, nice worship group, Bible studies for youth, cafeteria,… missioners to other countries etc, and they love it, and "m sure they love Jesus, and I’m sure God Bless them, I Believe that Catholic Church is Jesus Church, and i will give anything to bring my Kids and women to tha church with me, she is very anti- catholic and even told me that our son will never go there, I realize that the only thing i have in my faith, and i hope one day i can bring my family with me, the point is how can you persuade someone when In they “church” everything looks perfect?

 

[Atheling]

Curious what makes his version of the bible any more true or false then yours, or any other Protestant Preacher?

Now speaking from the Catholic view, of course we reject all protest teaching. By the simple phrase where ifsyour authority to teach in the name of Christ.

If a Catholic says this is what the bible says, and another Catholic says no its says this. The Church says this is it, and thats it.
The Catholic obeys.
The authority was given to the Pope and Bishops to preach and teach in his name.

But my question is if you reject his teachings, thats fine and dandy but what authority does one protestant truth have over the other?

Where does the Bible encourage materialism, which is the message forwarded by Osteen in his preaching? From my knowledge of scripture, Christ taught the exact opposite. By using the pulpit to spread the idea that God wants you to accumulate wealth and possessions on Earth, and that he can conveniently show you how, Osteen’s agenda becomes quite evident.

I don’t want to get into an argument of Catholic vs. Protestant, or Protestant vs. Protestant, as I’m sure these are horses that have been flogged a million times on this forum, but as a Reformed Protestant I believe in the authority of the Bible as the sole word of God, and Osteen’s worldly outlook is nowhere to be found in scripture.

 

[robwar]

I need some apologetics help, and I’m hoping that I can get some assistance from the forum. For reference, I’m currently going through RCIA, and I’ve been doing a lot of reading, but I’m not entirely knowledgeable about Catholicism yet.

My boyfriend was raised Catholic, but based on some discussions with him recently, I’m not sure how well he learned the catechism. He’s been involved in some protestant Bible study groups, and through that, has become a huge, huge fan of Joel Osteen. He keeps talking about some of the things he preaches, and I’m having a hard time articulating to him why I’m uncomfortable with Osteen and think he’s incompatible with Catholicism. I’ve tried explaining why the whole prosperity gospel idea is wrong, but I think I’m not really communicating things well because I’m still learning.

So, if anyone could help me put together a more coherent statement about why Osteen’s preaching, particularly about the prosperity gospel, is wrong and is contrary to Catholic beliefs, I’d really appreciate it. Right now, I’m struggling to articulate it, but I know in my gut what he’s saying is wrong. I just can’t figure out how to argue it.

Before becoming Catholic, I went to the health/wealth name it/claim it prosperity type of church. What people don’t realize is that this stuff is deadly. Joel Osteen as well as Joyce Meyers are just the latest additions. My involvement was in the 80’s which included Joel’s father, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Marilyn Hickey etc. The catechism of the Catholic Church does have an excellent section on suffering and it’s purpose. That is the opposite of these people which are teaching in a nut shell which is God as a giant candy machine.
Since he might not be so interested in Catholic resources, I know there are some Protestant books and material out there that try to debunk this stuff. I will try to look up some Protestant material for you to use. I did see one web site that had why Joyce Meyers is a false prophet but the same site was not too friendly to the Catholic Church. I know you asked about Joel but the same scripture and points apply to him from Joyce Meyers. You are astute to realize that behind the glitz and glamour of Joel Osteen is a false view and teaching which sets one up of failure not success in faith.

 

[robwar]

Where does the Bible encourage materialism, which is the message forwarded by Osteen in his preaching? From my knowledge of scripture, Christ taught the exact opposite. By using the pulpit to spread the idea that God wants you to accumulate wealth and possessions on Earth, and that he can conveniently show you how, Osteen’s agenda becomes quite evident.

I don’t want to get into an argument of Catholic vs. Protestant, or Protestant vs. Protestant, as I’m sure these are horses that have been flogged a million times on this forum, but as a Reformed Protestant I believe in the authority of the Bible as the sole word of God, and Osteen’s worldly outlook is nowhere to be found in scripture.

You are correct in that many Protestant groups see Joel Osteen and his teaching as false. This isn’t a Protestant vs Catholic. These teachings are very recent and came out of the pentacostal movement from the early 1900. Smith Wiggleworth would be considered the grandfather of this stuff. That is who Kenneth Hagin Sr. used and quoted in his teaching about faith and name it/claim it. This stuff has not been taught by Catholic/Orthodox or Protestants before the 1900.

 

[robwar]

It’s less a case of it being a Protestant phenomenon or antithetical to Catholicism than it is simply being a fraud overall. Like most televangelists/mega-church pastors, Osteen is a fraud preaching a materialistic perversion of Christianity to attract followers and donations. Run, don’t walk, away from such people and movements.

You are correct and I wish more Catholics would have this view. Run, don’t walk. This includes Joyce Meyers and all the rest. They look good, are great speakers etc but they teach a false view of God as a giant Santa Claus and it is a set up of failure when you put in the coins and you don’t get the candy like you think you deserve.

 

[robwar]

Ask him how Luke 9:23-25 relates to a “prosperity gospel”.

It is conveniently over looked like a number of other Bible verses all the while they are quoting the Bible verses they have strung together to fit their teachings. I remember once reading I think Kenneth Hagin and he was discussing Job and they summed up the book in that Job suffered because he has too much fear and no faith because Job was always making sacrifices for his children. I’ve also read that they claim St. Paul didn’t have enough faith when he had a “thorn in the flesh” in that he only asked God 3x. But then they teach that you only ask God once and if you ask again then you didn’t have “real” faith and you have negated your prayer request. It gets real kooky in how they gloss over many different parts of the Bible while claiming they are so Biblical and fooling the gullible.

 

[Peebo]

Ahh…televangelists and the gospel of prosperity…send money and God will surely bless me…oops…I mean bless you…amazing how many people get sucked into that doctrine…I wonder how many keep giving and eventually lose faith because they don’t get the rewards these false prophets promise God will give them…these are the same preachers who preach the “rapture”…that at in the last days the faithful (not idol worshipping Catholics though) will be whisked away in the twinkling of an eye so they won’t have to suffer through the great tribulation…of course thousands of Christians ( including us idol worshipping Catholics) are being persecuted and killed for their faith right now…so I guess they just don’t have as much faith as those who believe they will be spared having to suffer for Christ…

 

[benjohnson]

You are correct in that many Protestant groups see Joel Osteen and his teaching as false. This isn’t a Protestant vs Catholic.

Indeed!

Here’s an amusing Lutheran video mocking some of Joel’s tweets for the banality they are:

youtube.com/watch?v=KA_wWmVlypg

 

[rinnie]

Where does the Bible encourage materialism, which is the message forwarded by Osteen in his preaching? From my knowledge of scripture, Christ taught the exact opposite. By using the pulpit to spread the idea that God wants you to accumulate wealth and possessions on Earth, and that he can conveniently show you how, Osteen’s agenda becomes quite evident.

I don’t want to get into an argument of Catholic vs. Protestant, or Protestant vs. Protestant, as I’m sure these are horses that have been flogged a million times on this forum, but as a Reformed Protestant I believe in the authority of the Bible as the sole word of God, and Osteen’s worldly outlook is nowhere to be found in scripture.

If that is what he preaches he is in direct conflict with the word of God.

Now I did start a post actually on what I asked you. So I hope not to derail.

So let me ask this another way IF HE DOES okay, teach or preach this and this is his interpretation, what makes his so wrong?

You say the bible is the sole word of God. But yet you contradict the bible. Kinda of what you are accusing Joel of. Just saying:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

You are correct in that many Protestant groups see Joel Osteen and his teaching as false. This isn’t a Protestant vs Catholic. These teachings are very recent and came out of the pentacostal movement from the early 1900. Smith Wiggleworth would be considered the grandfather of this stuff. That is who Kenneth Hagin Sr. used and quoted in his teaching about faith and name it/claim it. This stuff has not been taught by Catholic/Orthodox or Protestants before the 1900.

But my point is this started from the time of Luther on. And as time went on we got further from the truth.

Now maybe this is Protestant against Protestant then against Catholic. But what really is the difference.

If you go back through history since the separation from the Catholic Church this has been going on since.

I am just at a loss why he is picked out to be the bad guy today for giving his interpretation of scripture. ITs happened since Luther.

 

[Atheling]

So let me ask this another way IF HE DOES okay, teach or preach this and this is his interpretation, what makes his so wrong?

I’ve already answered that; preaching materialism and the accumulation of worldly goods is in defiance of scripture, and given that it has been elevated to the central tenet of what Osteen preaches, it’s all the more heinous. Other offshoots of Christianity do the same thing, often times to a much greater extent, and it doesn’t make it right simply due to their sincere belief in whatever is being espoused.

You say the bible is the sole word of God. But yet you contradict the bible. Kinda of what you are accusing Joel of. Just saying:shrug:

Where have I contradicted the Bible?

 

[benjohnson]

But my point is this started from the time of Luther on. And as time went on we got further from the truth.

I would point out that modern Prosperity Gospel as minor twist on the Indulgence Trade - that you can ‘buy’ the favor of God.

 

[Atheling]

I would point out that modern Prosperity Gospel as minor twist on the Indulgence Trade - that you can ‘buy’ the favor of God.

That’s an interesting parallel, and I think a very accurate one.

 

[rinnie]

I would point out that modern Prosperity Gospel as minor twist on the Indulgence Trade - that you can ‘buy’ the favor of God.

Not to derail. but indulgences have always been accepted by the Church and always will.

Just because someone Human in the Church may have made a mistake with the buying of indulgences and got out of hand with them does mot mean they were rejected by Christ.

Heck there is scripture where they were told to sold all of the belonging’s and give the money to the Church. Remember the husband who held back and then was called on in and dropped dead.

No ones says you can buy your way into heaven, but where is it taught that giving momey for part of your penance with prayer won’t help get you favor with God. Truely its shows me the opposite who your real God is, and its not the cash. Eternal life in Christ means more to you then momey.

By the way it was not just the money that you got forgiveness for it was also repenting of sin and praying. And if you had the money a few bucks for the poor where is the sin in that?

But it was not indulgences they are still accepted by the RCC. When I go to Stations of the Cross on Fridays it is considered a indulgence either for myself or another lived or deceased member of my family.

But because of the abuse of a few money is mo lomger accepted. But can you tell me why givimg up momey and havimg less for oneself and more for others as a penance would go against you in fromt of God?

 

[Porknpie]

I need some apologetics help, and I’m hoping that I can get some assistance from the forum. For reference, I’m currently going through RCIA, and I’ve been doing a lot of reading, but I’m not entirely knowledgeable about Catholicism yet.

My boyfriend was raised Catholic, but based on some discussions with him recently, I’m not sure how well he learned the catechism. He’s been involved in some protestant Bible study groups, and through that, has become a huge, huge fan of Joel Osteen. He keeps talking about some of the things he preaches, and I’m having a hard time articulating to him why I’m uncomfortable with Osteen and think he’s incompatible with Catholicism. I’ve tried explaining why the whole prosperity gospel idea is wrong, but I think I’m not really communicating things well because I’m still learning.

So, if anyone could help me put together a more coherent statement about why Osteen’s preaching, particularly about the prosperity gospel, is wrong and is contrary to Catholic beliefs, I’d really appreciate it. Right now, I’m struggling to articulate it, but I know in my gut what he’s saying is wrong. I just can’t figure out how to argue it.

I do suggest watching My Favorite Jesuit’s homily in my signature line. Here’s a man with Doctorate in theology who has taken a vow of poverty (not that he’s impoverished). Listen to his words and compare them to Osteen’s. He has many more homily’s on youtube and is a fine example of Catholic preaching.

The answer is easily seen. They are markedly different. If you are going to put your spiritual life in the hands of one of these men, which one is God’s faithful servant?

PnP

 

[rinnie]

I’ve already answered that; preaching materialism and the accumulation of worldly goods is in defiance of scripture, and given that it has been elevated to the central tenet of what Osteen preaches, it’s all the more heinous. Other offshoots of Christianity do the same thing, often times to a much greater extent, and it doesn’t make it right simply due to their sincere belief in whatever is being espoused.

Where have I contradicted the Bible?

When you said the bible is the sole word of God,

 

[SteveVH]

I would point out that modern Prosperity Gospel as minor twist on the Indulgence Trade - that you can ‘buy’ the favor of God.

C’mon, Ben. You know very well what the intention of the Church was at that time. The Church has stated very clearly that the indulgence was only valid for temporal punishment for sins already forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession. Any “indulgence trade” was an abuse of Church teaching.

This cannot be compared to “Prosperity preachers” whose whole shtick is based upon acquiring wealth and prosperity by being a good little Christian, beginning with the first “love offering” made to the preacher.

 

[SteveVH]

That’s an interesting parallel, and I think a very accurate one.

 

[benjohnson]

But can you tell me why givimg up momey and havimg less for oneself and more for others as a penance would go against you in fromt of God?

Good question - especially because the church needs money to function. The problem would be to think that works (in the form of earned money) would merit more forgiveness in Christ.

This becomes especially acute when you look at poorer partitioners who are doing their best to make ends meet and struggle even to have enough time raise their families - just because I have a high-paying job and more free time shouldn’t merit me more accommodation in the life to come.

 

[benjohnson]

Any “indulgence trade” was an abuse of Church teaching.

Agreed! You won’t find many Lutherans defending this horrid Prosperity Gospel - the reason that I even brought the subject up was the post I replied to somehow equated this nuttiness with Luther. Luther has his many faults, but this wasn’t one of them.