Joel Osteen/Prosperity Gospel

[Atheling]

Not to derail. but indulgences have always been accepted by the Church and always will.

Just because someone Human in the Church may have made a mistake with the buying of indulgences and got out of hand with them does mot mean they were rejected by Christ.

Heck there is scripture where they were told to sold all of the belonging’s and give the money to the Church. Remember the husband who held back and then was called on in and dropped dead.

No ones says you can buy your way into heaven, but where is it taught that giving momey for part of your penance with prayer won’t help get you favor with God. Truely its shows me the opposite who your real God is, and its not the cash. Eternal life in Christ means more to you then momey.

By the way it was not just the money that you got forgiveness for it was also repenting of sin and praying. And if you had the money a few bucks for the poor where is the sin in that?

But it was not indulgences they are still accepted by the RCC. When I go to Stations of the Cross on Fridays it is considered a indulgence either for myself or another lived or deceased member of my family.

But because of the abuse of a few money is mo lomger accepted. But can you tell me why givimg up momey and havimg less for oneself and more for others as a penance would go against you in fromt of God?

Show me some scripture which supports the notion that you can buy a sin. Really, anything that implies life is a game of Monopoly and for a small donation the church will give me a get-out-of-jail-free card. Whether or not money is still accepted doesn’t change the principle either.

When you said the bible is the sole word of God,

I don’t know what else could be, because it certainly isn’t “tradition”.

 

[Porknpie]

Show me some scripture which supports the notion that you can buy a sin. Really, anything that implies life is a game of Monopoly and for a small donation the church will give me a get-out-of-jail-free card. Whether or not money is still accepted doesn’t change the principle either.

Atheling. Fair enough question above that I’ll let the other poster respond to.

However, an equally fair question from a Catholic then would be show me in scripture where scripture says all that Jesus taught is in scripture?

Waiting…

OK…time up. It doesn’t. Just the opposite. Scripture, the Written Word of God, says that Jesus taught more than all the books in the world could record. And, Scripture, the Written Word of God says through St. Paul, that we are to hold fast to both what has been spoken and written.

You are in fact following a man-made tradition that you yourself are so critical of. You are looking to scripture for a theology that scripture itself does not support. The bible does not support sola scriptura.

PnP

 

[Atheling]

Atheling. Fair enough question above that I’ll let the other poster respond to.

However, an equally fair question from a Catholic then would be show me in scripture where scripture says all that Jesus taught is in scripture?

Waiting…

OK…time up. It doesn’t. Just the opposite. Scripture, the Written Word of God, says that Jesus taught more than all the books in the world could record. And, Scripture, the Written Word of God says through St. Paul, that we are to hold fast to both what has been spoken and written.

You are in fact following a man-made tradition that you yourself are so critical of. You are looking to scripture for a theology that scripture itself does not support. The bible does not support sola scriptura.

PnP

I’m wondering whether it’s worth my time to respond to these issues anymore because the moderator “Eric Hilbert” is inundating me with infractions for “contempt of Catholicism” for highlighting Protestant criticisms of Catholicism.

I guess this is Catholic Answer’s own little Counter-Reformation?

 

[Estevao]

Martyrs read Joel Osteen tweets (funny!):

youtube.com/watch?v=KA_wWmVlypg

 

[robwar]

But my point is this started from the time of Luther on. And as time went on we got further from the truth.

Now maybe this is Protestant against Protestant then against Catholic. But what really is the difference.

If you go back through history since the separation from the Catholic Church this has been going on since.

I am just at a loss why he is picked out to be the bad guy today for giving his interpretation of scripture. ITs happened since Luther.

I understand about all of that, I was raised a United Methodist and then bounced around different Charismatic churches before becoming Catholic. But this thread isn’t about Luther. It was a question by a new Catholic about Joel Osteen and I’ve had some experiences with this sort of stuff. My point in that the faith/name it claim/properity/wealth teaching is a relatively new error something on the line as dispensationalism and the rapture stuff. There are many more Protestants that are concerned and against this stuff than one would think. That is why some of our Lutheran friends on CAF have joined in the conversation. Because people like Osteen and Joyce Meyers are on TV and popular, the uninformed and naive which include Catholics listen and follow them. Just look at some of the other threads on CAF asking about these two. I see them as the latest version of the properity gospel since I was involved with it in the 80’s. The faces have changed but the error and misleading hasn’t. Don’t turn this into a Luther thread, that’s not what the question was. The question is from a new Catholic looking for help in combating this sort of teaching. Sadly, there is a lack of material from Catholic sources but there is more material from some Protestant sources that discuss what is wrong with some intelligence.
It doesn’t help to call them sharlatans and fakes but it is helpful to point out from the Bible what is wrong here.

 

[zippity]

The argument I usually use against Word of Faith or otherwise “Name It and Claim It” Health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel types is this:

“God is not a vending machine.”

Amen

 

[rinnie]

Good question - especially because the church needs money to function. The problem would be to think that works (in the form of earned money) would merit more forgiveness in Christ.

This becomes especially acute when you look at poorer partitioners who are doing their best to make ends meet and struggle even to have enough time raise their families - just because I have a high-paying job and more free time shouldn’t merit me more accommodation in the life to come.

See I disagree with that let me tell you why. Because its the rich who pretty much screwed the whole thing up. They are who were truly accused of buying their sins off.

And seriously its harder for a rich man to part with his money then a poor, Jesus himself said it back then and I am sure he would still say it today.

So how could it truly hurt for a rich man (who is truly repenting now, and truly sorry for his sins) give up a nice chunk of change also.

I mean I know many many rich people, and every single one of them have a tightness to em. And they would rather sit in Church and pray till the cows came home then give up a buck.

I just think that for some that crave and adore that money there would be no better penance or gift to God. I mean that did choose God because they did put him above the buck, but as much as they love that buck, bet they would think MORE than twice then to repeat the sin.

 

[rinnie]

I understand about all of that, I was raised a United Methodist and then bounced around different Charismatic churches before becoming Catholic. But this thread isn’t about Luther. It was a question by a new Catholic about Joel Osteen and I’ve had some experiences with this sort of stuff. My point in that the faith/name it claim/properity/wealth teaching is a relatively new error something on the line as dispensationalism and the rapture stuff. There are many more Protestants that are concerned and against this stuff than one would think. That is why some of our Lutheran friends on CAF have joined in the conversation. Because people like Osteen and Joyce Meyers are on TV and popular, the uninformed and naive which include Catholics listen and follow them. Just look at some of the other threads on CAF asking about these two. I see them as the latest version of the properity gospel since I was involved with it in the 80’s. The faces have changed but the error and misleading hasn’t. Don’t turn this into a Luther thread, that’s not what the question was. The question is from a new Catholic looking for help in combating this sort of teaching. Sadly, there is a lack of material from Catholic sources but there is more material from some Protestant sources that discuss what is wrong with some intelligence.
It doesn’t help to call them sharlatans and fakes but it is helpful to point out from the Bible what is wrong here.

But not a true Catholic will be swayed by them, can actually see right through them.

But my question what makes what they are doing any worse then any other one.

How about the Protestant teachers either on TV or in the Churchs that tell People

EVERYBODY GETS IN. Jesus payed the sin, if you believe you receive!!

Or the one that says to the true poor person forget the cable, forget the gas, give the money to the Church GOD WILL REWARD YOU!!

And no offesne this is TONS of book, and teaching from Catholic Saints and Bishops and Pope, and Normal Catholic People.

But you know why People don’t want it. Because it don’t lie. It tells you, you sin, you refuse to repent and change your ways rather you believe in God or not, you will go to hell.

God knows every evil thought, deed and you will pay.

My point is as far as Joel and the other. Simply why so surprised. Its Typical. Fool people for a buck.

My favorite one personally is that little fat one in the white suit. That looks like boss hogg.If I had to pick one. He’s my Man. I mean if I want lies I want entertainment too.

 

[rinnie]

My family is going to another church, right now is not Osteen church, they say they are a non-denominational christian church, they are really organized, big campus, big chapel, nice worship group, Bible studies for youth, cafeteria,… missioners to other countries etc, and they love it, and "m sure they love Jesus, and I’m sure God Bless them, I Believe that Catholic Church is Jesus Church, and i will give anything to bring my Kids and women to tha church with me, she is very anti- catholic and even told me that our son will never go there, I realize that the only thing i have in my faith, and i hope one day i can bring my family with me, the point is how can you persuade someone when In they “church” everything looks perfect?

I know these also. And you know what? I love the Preacher and he is truly a gift from God. Really I am seriousl If I had to recant my faith he is where I would go.

But you know why it will never work? Because you still have to many truths.

Kinda like what the Preacher said when the couple came in for counseling. There are 3 truths His, hers, and the truth.

Thats what this Church is. No fight, No worry. Lets not fight, lets not argue. you believe what you want, I will do it my way. We are just all real good people trying to get to the same place.

Sounds real good huh?

He is not going to tell you that you MUST eat the true blood of Christ in the true Eucharist, because he can’t give it to you.

He is not going to tell you to come to him and confess your sin, because he cannot forgive sin in the name of God.

He will marry you once twice three times. Hey, lets not commit adultery now. But even if you do, its all Good. God loves you.

He isn’t even going to talk about your faith, he loves Catholics too. Come on over. We just pray together.

But the PROBLEM here is this. JESUS said I got to eat the bread, I got to go to the Priest and ask for forgiveness of my sins.

 

[robwar]

But not a true Catholic will be swayed by them, can actually see right through them.

But my question what makes what they are doing any worse then any other one.

How about the Protestant teachers either on TV or in the Churchs that tell People

EVERYBODY GETS IN. Jesus payed the sin, if you believe you receive!!

Or the one that says to the true poor person forget the cable, forget the gas, give the money to the Church GOD WILL REWARD YOU!!

And no offesne this is TONS of book, and teaching from Catholic Saints and Bishops and Pope, and Normal Catholic People.

But you know why People don’t want it. Because it don’t lie. It tells you, you sin, you refuse to repent and change your ways rather you believe in God or not, you will go to hell.

God knows every evil thought, deed and you will pay.

My point is as far as Joel and the other. Simply why so surprised. Its Typical. Fool people for a buck.

My favorite one personally is that little fat one in the white suit. That looks like boss hogg.If I had to pick one. He’s my Man. I mean if I want lies I want entertainment too.

Rinni,
I think you are missing the point of the thread and question. The people that are mainly on TV are these types of people. You can’t lump all Protestantism in one big pile and the things these people are teaching are heretical even to a majority of Protestants.

 

[rinnie]

Rinni,
I think you are missing the point of the thread and question. The people that are mainly on TV are these types of people. You can’t lump all Protestantism in one big pile and the things these people are teaching are heretical even to a majority of Protestants.

See thats where I am having my big problem. This week especially. Every post I go its haunting me so bad.

Protestant truth is not definitive. And I think thats how I can lump them all together.

Anybody who chooses to reject the teachings of the CC are Protestant.

That is truly what Protestant is. You feel God gave you the power to teach differently then the RCC.

So now its gotten out of hand for Protestants now. Welcome to our world. RC had the problem for years. Did you really think it would get better?

 

[rinnie]

Rinni,
I think you are missing the point of the thread and question. The people that are mainly on TV are these types of people. You can’t lump all Protestantism in one big pile and the things these people are teaching are heretical even to a majority of Protestants.

And trust me these People are not only on TV. They are in Churchs around the world everywhere. Its no new teaching, You just saw it on TV.

When you walk away from the ONE TRUE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH were else can you go? Do you really think there is absolute truth outside of Christ and his CHurch.

I just can’t understand why Protestants and Catholics are so surprised. And why NOW?

You think that one (remember with all the make up) would have been the wake up call for the world!

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

THIS is probably out of topic, but in my area i saw in the last couple of months they open three churches, both on a shopping center, Both in Spanish, i wonder which one of those are telling the truth? I wonder if the “owner” of any of those have the authority from Jesus to use His name and the Bible as their Business, I have a conversation with my dad the other day, he states that he’s going to a church that plays a beautiful music, that even him a hard heart guy cries, then they teach me the bible really well and at the end i receive prophecy, i ask him who found that church, he say some lady, so i told him hmm so this lady just got a idea one day, let me open a church, sing some music, sell Cd’s, give people prophecy, On the prophecy “God” tell you that you wild find a new job, that you will be travel very soon, and etc… can anyone open a “Church” and let me tell you something this lady is very successful she open churches all over the world, and she start in Colombia.

 

[Starrsmother]

And trust me these People are not only on TV. They are in Churchs around the world everywhere. Its no new teaching, You just saw it on TV.

When you walk away from the ONE TRUE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH were else can you go? Do you really think there is absolute truth outside of Christ and his CHurch.

I just can’t understand why Protestants and Catholics are so surprised. And why NOW?

You think that one (remember with all the make up) would have been the wake up call for the world!

There are many protestant churches that–whether we as Catholics believe them to be misled and wrong in doctrine or not–are still very much God-fearing and decent people who are sincerely trying to worship God and live their lives the way Jesus taught in the hope that they will get to heaven. We can argue religion all day with these Christian groups of our brothers and sisters, and whether we convert them or not, we usually leave realizing that they are sincere and are attempting to discern the truth and live by it–even when it isn’t the happy, easy truth that we’d all prefer to hear. Billy Graham Sr. effects me this way. I think he’s sincere and a good man. Maybe misled–but a good, honest, God-fearing man and minister

Joel Osteen, on the other hand, is a showman, sly and clever. Listen to him sometime. He never really takes a moral stand on anything–even abortion, pre-marital sex or anything else that should have a clear answer–and usually does–from any Christian pastor–whether Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran or whatever. He smiles and talks in circles but always comes back to a central premise that God told us that He wants us to be happy on earth and have “all things good” (one of his exact quotes) and that if we aren’t getting all these earthly perks, that we need to change our attitude to a more positive one and that God–the “Big ATM Machine in the Sky” will come through for us. I’m not sure where in the Bible he read that–I’m still looking for that verse, infact it seems to me that exactly the opposite was said–both in the OT and NT!

 

[benjohnson]

So how could it truly hurt for a rich man (who is truly repenting now, and truly sorry for his sins) give up a nice chunk of change also.

I agree that it’s good for a rich man to give up his riches for God’s glory, but I don’t think that makes him necessarily a better example of Christ’s grace than the poor man who only gives a penny.

Our church, for example, goes out of it’s way to make sure you can’t figure out who is giving to the church and who can’t afford to - with the understanding of Proverbs 22:2

Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.

 

[rinnie]

There are many protestant churches that–whether we as Catholics believe them to be misled and wrong in doctrine or not–are still very much God-fearing and decent people who are sincerely trying to worship God and live their lives the way Jesus taught in the hope that they will get to heaven. We can argue religion all day with these Christian groups of our brothers and sisters, and whether we convert them or not, we usually leave realizing that they are sincere and are attempting to discern the truth and live by it–even when it isn’t the happy, easy truth that we’d all prefer to hear. Billy Graham Sr. effects me this way. I think he’s sincere and a good man. Maybe misled–but a good, honest, God-fearing man and minister

Joel Osteen, on the other hand, is a showman, sly and clever. Listen to him sometime. He never really takes a moral stand on anything–even abortion, pre-marital sex or anything else that should have a clear answer–and usually does–from any Christian pastor–whether Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran or whatever. He smiles and talks in circles but always comes back to a central premise that God told us that He wants us to be happy on earth and have “all things good” (one of his exact quotes) and that if we aren’t getting all these earthly perks, that we need to change our attitude to a more positive one and that God–the “Big ATM Machine in the Sky” will come through for us. I’m not sure where in the Bible he read that–I’m still looking for that verse, infact it seems to me that exactly the opposite was said–both in the OT and NT!

Well let me say this, If I can I seem to be in the dog house with everybody this week. But hey we have those days.

First of all remember what the Pope said there is truth in all Churchs. We cant forget that.

But lets see what he said he. God wants us all to be happy. Yep I can’t disagree with that.

Now let me as a Catholic interpret what he is saying. See the problem. But as much as it PAINS me I am going to interpret what he said and DEFEND him:crying::sad_yes:

Okay here it goes. Yes God does want us to be happy and have good things in our lives. And maybe if you are getting these good earthly perks maybe you need to change your thinking here.

Is God giving me everything I want or everything I need. And do I need what I want, or do I have what I need.

You change your thinking and instead of looking for what you want, you may find that big mac machine in the sky has been taking care of you with endless grace giving you more then what you even need. Now God forgive me, I can’t dog him on what I feel he is saying.

But then why won’t he talk to us about abortion etc. Simple because we don’t want to hear it. If we want to hear about birth control. sex out of marriage, sins, how we are sinners, how we need to repent, abortion, we will go to the Catholic Church.

If I had a dime for every protestant that said that to me I would be so rich. I could feel all the starving childre in the world.

Because you know what the problem with the RCC is. I do, I am told all the time. You folks bring us down, we dont go to church to be brought down we need lifted up.

And they are right, if you want sugar coat its not in the RCC. Its truth and it sucks to be told you are wrong.

Like my friend said once she crawed out of the Mass. I said why. She said Father just described my weekend.

 

[rinnie]

I agree that it’s good for a rich man to give up his riches for God’s glory, but I don’t think that makes him necessarily a better example of Christ’s grace than the poor man who only gives a penny.

Our church, for example, goes out of it’s way to make sure you can’t figure out who is giving to the church and who can’t afford to - with the understanding of Proverbs 22:2

Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all.

Actually it has nothing to do with that. And it could never compare to the poor man story. The story of the poor woman is she gave all she had.

For him to compare to her he would have to do the same.

As God said its easier for a camel to enter into the eye of a needle.

 

[benjohnson]

Actually it has nothing to do with that. And it could never compare to the poor man story. The story of the poor woman is she gave all she had.

Agreed! I’m trying to figure out if we disagree. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think we do.

 

[rinnie]

Agreed! I’m trying to figure out if we disagree. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t think we do.

I think what we can agree on is it is a shame how some Priests acted in the past, and by their actions took something that could have been good for all humankind, and ruined it by their own sins of greed.

And whats worse by these actions turned people away from Christ and his Church, instead of making these Priests repent and ask forgiveness for the wrong they did.

And for the People to forgive instead of holding a grudge for the wrong of the Priest. But for some its easier to find fault and dwell then forgive and move on.

 

[robwar]

See thats where I am having my big problem. This week especially. Every post I go its haunting me so bad.

Protestant truth is not definitive. And I think thats how I can lump them all together.

Anybody who chooses to reject the teachings of the CC are Protestant.

That is truly what Protestant is. You feel God gave you the power to teach differently then the RCC.

So now its gotten out of hand for Protestants now. Welcome to our world. RC had the problem for years. Did you really think it would get better?

Rinnie,
you are derailing this thread. This thread is not about all of Protestantism and lumping them together. The Catholic church calls them our separated brothers and sisters. There are many good God fearing Protestants, in fact many Protestants take their faith very seriously, sometimes more so and better than many Catholics. This thread is about a rather heretical belief system which in essence ruduces God to a giant Santa Claus. It also a more recent error from the 1900’s. There are many more Protestants that are concerned with Joel and Joyce than even many Catholics. You seem to be on some anti-Protestant kick here. I think you should be reminded that the Catholic church does recognize Protestant baptism done in the trinitarian form as a valid sacrament. I think you need to stay on topic which is an important one since these people are popular and out there.