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Faith1960
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I’ve done that upon occasion.
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Kurisu35712
Guest
I’m not big on non-denominational megapreachers, personally. My girlfriend’s family goes, or went, to a similar megachurch based in Atlanta, and previously went to one in Dallas. I’ve gone a few times. It’s not my thing. It’s nice, I guess. You certainly feel like you’re part of some kind of worship service, but it doesn’t feel like church, and it certainly doesn’t feel like mass. Some of the sermons were agreeable, some of them I disagreed with completely. But that’s what happens when one’s spirituality and faith is divorced from the Church.
The net worth thing bothers me a bit, just because tithes are going directly to the family, who then manage the business that is their congregation. The Church draws quite a bit of its net worth from the many priceless artifacts, paintings, sculptures, and architectural works it commissioned, received as donation, sponsored, etc. Far different from a megapreacher owning a mansion, in my opinion. I can go to the Vatican and tour the museum, walk around St. Peter’s Basilica and stare at the Pieta for an hour, go to mass at San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane, get married in the Chapel of the Holy Shroud. The Church has to support priests, monks, nuns, hospital employees etc etc. Plus it’s 2000 years old, and has parishes in just about every country in the world. Joel Osteen is successful because of his congregation. That’s fine, and I don’t begrudge him that. As far as I know, he’s not very “prosperity Gospel.” I just have always found a profound sense of something that is vital missing at similar services to his.
The net worth thing bothers me a bit, just because tithes are going directly to the family, who then manage the business that is their congregation. The Church draws quite a bit of its net worth from the many priceless artifacts, paintings, sculptures, and architectural works it commissioned, received as donation, sponsored, etc. Far different from a megapreacher owning a mansion, in my opinion. I can go to the Vatican and tour the museum, walk around St. Peter’s Basilica and stare at the Pieta for an hour, go to mass at San Carlo alle Quattro Fontane, get married in the Chapel of the Holy Shroud. The Church has to support priests, monks, nuns, hospital employees etc etc. Plus it’s 2000 years old, and has parishes in just about every country in the world. Joel Osteen is successful because of his congregation. That’s fine, and I don’t begrudge him that. As far as I know, he’s not very “prosperity Gospel.” I just have always found a profound sense of something that is vital missing at similar services to his.
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PolarGuy
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Kurisu, you’re correct in numerous respects, most notably, there is something missing at a protestant service, large or small. Among others, it’s the real presence of the Eucharist. At least.
That said, there’s also something missing these days in Catholic parishes, at least in the USA. It could be many things:
–Boring sermons with absolutely no application or nexus to the real world circa 2016; and/or
–A missing sense of engagement/friendliness to others (there was a thread about this on this board not too long ago; and/or
–A church hierarchy that expects people to look to unmarried priests to counsel people about things the priests have zero experience with, including marital problems and financial problems; and/or
–The scandal of priests molesting kids and bishops simply moving them from parish to parish.
Catholic parishes are emptying, notwithstanding anecdotes about “my parish is full!”
Furthermore, it really, really galls me that this board is often nothing but people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of what I set forth above being true. To these folks, there’s an easy answer: Blame the Catholics for not seeing the truth of how they themselves are to blame, rather than maybe acknowledge that the Church is doing something wrong. IMHO, the Catholics themselves know there’s a problem or problems; it’s the Church that needs to acknowledge that maybe it’s doing something wrong, that’s causing it’s pews to empty.
That said, there’s also something missing these days in Catholic parishes, at least in the USA. It could be many things:
–Boring sermons with absolutely no application or nexus to the real world circa 2016; and/or
–A missing sense of engagement/friendliness to others (there was a thread about this on this board not too long ago; and/or
–A church hierarchy that expects people to look to unmarried priests to counsel people about things the priests have zero experience with, including marital problems and financial problems; and/or
–The scandal of priests molesting kids and bishops simply moving them from parish to parish.
Catholic parishes are emptying, notwithstanding anecdotes about “my parish is full!”
Furthermore, it really, really galls me that this board is often nothing but people who absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of what I set forth above being true. To these folks, there’s an easy answer: Blame the Catholics for not seeing the truth of how they themselves are to blame, rather than maybe acknowledge that the Church is doing something wrong. IMHO, the Catholics themselves know there’s a problem or problems; it’s the Church that needs to acknowledge that maybe it’s doing something wrong, that’s causing it’s pews to empty.
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WJeffrey
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I am sorry that the Catholic Church is not meeting your spiritual needs, and that you do not agree with 2000 years of teaching. An organization that is that old typically does not change with the times. I’m glad that you find fulfillment with Mr. Osteen. Happiness and fulfillment are important life considerations. I’m guessing that Osteen has been preaching for 20 years, and I assume that he is far more likely to change with the times.
Many of the people on this website are spiritually fulfilled by the Catholic Church. They have a different experience than you. That does not make their experience wrong.
People have just as much right to state an opinion about their perception of the negative aspects of Mr. Osteen’s ministry as you do about your negative perception of the Catholic Church. It is likely that you will find negative perceptions about Mr. Osteen when reading about a question where the asker is complaining about how annoying Mr. Osteen’s TV program is that she is forced to listen to at work.
Two types of people are going to respond. One is a person who agree with her and the other are the people who disagree with her. Since the majority of people on this website tend to be fairly devout Catholics, many are probably not Osteen admirers.
Again, I am glad that Mr. Osteen fills a hole in you where something is missing. The Catholic Church fills that hole in me. Mr. Osteen makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside and the Priest at my Parish does something similar for me. I find Osteen and his ilk to be repugnant. It seems like you have a similar negative impression about the hierarchy of the Church.
If you don’t want to hear people being critical of a Protestant Preacher, you probably should not read stories discussing how annoying they are on a Catholic Apologetics website.
Maybe you could start a thread praising Mr. Osteen or discussing how his style could radically change Catholicism.embarking on a new vision you both share. You might find a different response. Then again, you might not.
I’ll leave the beer invitation open should you change your mind.
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Micosil
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Here’s my question for you, then – let’s first grant, for the sake of argument, that what you’re saying is true, that a generalized tendency of these things is the norm in Catholic parishes. What do you propose as the solution to this? What do you think the Pope, the Magisterium, bishops, priests, etc. do?
Because I’ll remind you that once upon a time, someone else noticed stuff that was wrong (perhaps legitimately wrong stuff) in the Church, and instead of staying within the Church and trying to effectuate reforms, he eventually found himself outside. His name was Martin Luther.
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PolarGuy
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Wjeffrey, if you want to get on joel Osteen’s case theologically, fine.
However, a lot of criticism leveled against him - on this board, and in the world at large - smacks of nastiness: he’s annoying; he’s slimy; he sips piña coladas while others suffer; he must’ve had plastic surgery, etc., by people who clearly have never listened to the man, let alone met him. Frankly, I think a lot of criticism of him comes off as sour grapes by losers.
Having theological issues with a Protestant minister is not a license to hate, or to be nasty.
Further, I think his congregation would be a lot more welcoming of strangers than would the Catholics on this board - particularly those who seem obsessed with rules; see sin everywhere; and see Catholics as superior in all respects to other Christians.
If you want to find him repugnant…it’s a free country. As to WHY you’d find repugnant a person who seems to be trying to do Gods work, and who seems to be succeeding at such endeavors…well, I’ll leave that to your conscience.
However, a lot of criticism leveled against him - on this board, and in the world at large - smacks of nastiness: he’s annoying; he’s slimy; he sips piña coladas while others suffer; he must’ve had plastic surgery, etc., by people who clearly have never listened to the man, let alone met him. Frankly, I think a lot of criticism of him comes off as sour grapes by losers.
Having theological issues with a Protestant minister is not a license to hate, or to be nasty.
Further, I think his congregation would be a lot more welcoming of strangers than would the Catholics on this board - particularly those who seem obsessed with rules; see sin everywhere; and see Catholics as superior in all respects to other Christians.
If you want to find him repugnant…it’s a free country. As to WHY you’d find repugnant a person who seems to be trying to do Gods work, and who seems to be succeeding at such endeavors…well, I’ll leave that to your conscience.
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PolarGuy
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Micosil, who said I was leaving? The fact that I think priests give lousy sermons; have no business giving love advice, etc., doesn’t mean I want to leave! To the contrary, if people like me left the church, people like those on this board would just slap each other on the proverbial back telling themselves how I was so lukewarm; they’d trash me and others like me, etc.
They might even say I was “repugnant.”
And the church would be smaller by 1.
In fact, the best thing I can do to people like that, is exactly what I will do: saying what’s wrong; trying in my own way to fix it; “raising consciousness;”…and by NOT leaving the church (or this board, either! ).
They might even say I was “repugnant.”
And the church would be smaller by 1.
In fact, the best thing I can do to people like that, is exactly what I will do: saying what’s wrong; trying in my own way to fix it; “raising consciousness;”…and by NOT leaving the church (or this board, either!
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Tommy999
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I heard a priest say on EWTN radio a few months ago that the biggest percentage of Catholics who have left his parish were not drawn away by mainline protestant denominations, but by preachers like Joel Osteen, which really surprised me.
I consider Osteen to be in the “power of positive thinking”, “encouragement”, and “prosperity gospel” business, and I emphasize “busine$$”. He is the mold of Robert H Schuller and the Crystal Cathedral, for those of you who remember him and the glory days of TV evangelists like Oral Roberts. Joel Osteen attended Oral Roberts Univ, by the way.
To me, Joel Osteen is like religious “fast food” and many protestants consider him to be of little substance. He doesn’t preach the suffering and redemptive work of Christ hardly at all. The thing he does the best is takes those who have low self-worth and/or who are down on their luck and offers them encouragement. That is his appeal.
I can see that many on CAF see through him and what he is doing. I applaud that. However, there apparently are sufficient numbers of Catholics and Protestants who are drawn to him that he is able to stay in business.
I consider Osteen to be in the “power of positive thinking”, “encouragement”, and “prosperity gospel” business, and I emphasize “busine$$”. He is the mold of Robert H Schuller and the Crystal Cathedral, for those of you who remember him and the glory days of TV evangelists like Oral Roberts. Joel Osteen attended Oral Roberts Univ, by the way.
To me, Joel Osteen is like religious “fast food” and many protestants consider him to be of little substance. He doesn’t preach the suffering and redemptive work of Christ hardly at all. The thing he does the best is takes those who have low self-worth and/or who are down on their luck and offers them encouragement. That is his appeal.
I can see that many on CAF see through him and what he is doing. I applaud that. However, there apparently are sufficient numbers of Catholics and Protestants who are drawn to him that he is able to stay in business.
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PolarGuy
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Tommy, I don’t know why it’s so bad if Osteen is fact offering encouragement to those down on their luck. The alternative would be…what, exactly? Discouragement? That would seem to be the case.
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Tommy999
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Encouragement is a good thing, PolarGuy. However, encouragement should be centered in the redemptive work of Christ, not in the power of positive thinking and prosperity gospel, but that’s just me. If you watch him closely, he barely even touches on the redemptive work of Christ. It’s more of a psychological pep talk you could get from any motivational speaker, in my opinion.
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PolarGuy
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Following up on my last post, many, many catholic posters on this board come here and post some permutation of “I’m lost;” “I’m depressed;” “I can’t go on;” “my life stinks;” or whatever.
I therefore suggest this in all seriousness:
Perhaps listening to Joel Osteen might help them?
(Certainly the Catholic Churches they attend don’t seem to have helped them much).
I therefore suggest this in all seriousness:
Perhaps listening to Joel Osteen might help them?
(Certainly the Catholic Churches they attend don’t seem to have helped them much).
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PolarGuy
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I guess it’s perspective, Tommy: I think Osteen preaches on the redemptive work of Christ often, and I don’t think he preaches a prosperity gospel at all. What you see as “he should preach more about the redemptive work of Christ,” I see as “this is just a demand that sermons always focus on how we’re all sinners and never say anything uplifting.” If anything, an argument might be made that Osteen - more than other churches, including Catholic ones - is saying what people need to hear, if membership is any indication.
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Tommy999
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I must admit that it feels kind of weird for me, a protestant, to argue against a protestant televangelist and you, a Catholic, to defend Joel Osteen. However, you know your parish and what it might need and I don’t.
I just feel that a church should be all about Jesus and His redemptive work on the cross and to teach that we are sinners in need of a Savior and Catholics do that very well, in my opinion.
From a Wikipedia article:
“…Osteen says that he chooses to focus more on the goodness of God and on living an obedient life rather than on sin. He says that he tries to teach Biblical principles in a simple way, emphasizing the power of love and a positive attitude”.
I guess we will just need to agree to disagree on Mr Osteen because in my view he doesn’t preach the whole gospel, especially sin and the need to repent.
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PolarGuy
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That’s OK Tom, at least it was civil (you certainly were, and I tried to be).
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WJeffrey
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Polar, Is there a reason why you think that people who disagree with your views on theology are mentally ill? Is it a matter of the average Osteen fan being of sound mind and the average devout Catholic being mentally ill? Or is it just a matter of people who appreciate Catholic Apologetics being nuts. Or is insanity reserved for people who disagree with you,
Given the millions of people who turned out for a glimpse of the Pope, I would say the Church in America is fairly healthy. It might be nearly as healthy as Mr. Osteen’s congregation.
Given the millions of people who turned out for a glimpse of the Pope, I would say the Church in America is fairly healthy. It might be nearly as healthy as Mr. Osteen’s congregation.
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PolarGuy
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The Catholic Church in America is “fairly healthy?”
You can’t be serious.
Take a deep breath and consider the following, please:
–The Pew Research Center (pewforum.org) reports that as of 2012, US Catholics who identify themselves as “strong catholics” were at their lowest level in 4 decades, while it reported that Protestants who so identified themselves as strong protestants had doubled since 1974;
–Salon.com reported Catholicism in the USA to be in “demographic free fall” as of May 2015;
–Catholic schools are closing at record levels;
–Fr. Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican’s Chief Exorcist and an Instructor at the Vatican’s pontifical institute has stated publicly that the Devil has infiltrated the highest levels of the Catholic Church (worldwide, not just the USA).
Anyone can see the Catholic Church worldwide and in the USA has problems – yet you think the Church is healthy, because the Pope got a big welcome.
Some few Catholics – like many of the hardliners who, say, come here all the time – just want to blame other Catholics as lukewarm, as that is much easier than some serious self-introspection about what Osteen and his ilk do right, and what Catholic Churches might be doing wrong.
I’m sorry, but the remainder of your posts are simply antagonistic, and do nothing to cause me to wish to engage in further discussion.
You can’t be serious.
Take a deep breath and consider the following, please:
–The Pew Research Center (pewforum.org) reports that as of 2012, US Catholics who identify themselves as “strong catholics” were at their lowest level in 4 decades, while it reported that Protestants who so identified themselves as strong protestants had doubled since 1974;
–Salon.com reported Catholicism in the USA to be in “demographic free fall” as of May 2015;
–Catholic schools are closing at record levels;
–Fr. Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican’s Chief Exorcist and an Instructor at the Vatican’s pontifical institute has stated publicly that the Devil has infiltrated the highest levels of the Catholic Church (worldwide, not just the USA).
Anyone can see the Catholic Church worldwide and in the USA has problems – yet you think the Church is healthy, because the Pope got a big welcome.
Some few Catholics – like many of the hardliners who, say, come here all the time – just want to blame other Catholics as lukewarm, as that is much easier than some serious self-introspection about what Osteen and his ilk do right, and what Catholic Churches might be doing wrong.
I’m sorry, but the remainder of your posts are simply antagonistic, and do nothing to cause me to wish to engage in further discussion.
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Latias
Guest
The US and the Catholics won against the Marxist-Leninists, but they cannot defeat the devil.
Regarding Osteen, I have a negative impression with his message, but I cannot accuse him of being a bad Christian, unlike other televangelists.
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WJeffrey
Guest
Perhaps if you actually entered a Catholic Church, you wouldn’t need to base your base your assumptions on Pew Research Polls.
My experience is very different than yours. It is based on actually entering into Church. It is based on my charitable work, and my ever-growing family circle of fellow Catholics.
I don’t need someone to tell me that I am good enough, smart enough, and doggonit people like me. My global Catholic family shows me that everyday. I also know that those things while nice, are not necessary for my salvation. God shows his love for me. That is really all that matters.
I would recommend reading the minor profits of the OT for the impact of listening to false profits who tell people what they want to hear instead of telling them the truth, :idea: but you would probably be offended since you don’t listen to anyone who disagrees with you because they are probably mentally ill.
Get back to me when Osteen outdraws the Pope.
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Kurisu35712
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I don’t know about the others, but Salon is probably the most biased and least trustworthy “news” source I’ve ever encountered. Fox has less of an explicit agenda.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
I grew up poor, correcting him and his supporters is an ACT of charity. I also struggle with depression. Your comments were uncharitable toward me. Go back and read what you said. Read Olsteen’s theology.
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