John 10:27-30

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smithmikeg

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Jesus said:
“My sheep hear my voice;
I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.
The Father and I are one.”)(NAB)

Forgive my Protestant upbringing. How does one reconcile the idea of mortal sin in light of this teaching?

Full Disclosure: Even though I grew up Protestant, I was received into the Church in 2005. I actually look forward to Confession, too. Sometimes the theological ghosts of Sunday past come back to haunt me.

Thanks.
 
OK, first of all, we know from John’s Epistle that some sins are deadly and some are not. So we have the concept of mortal (or deadly) and venial sins.

So no one can snatch me from the Father? Of course, that’s good sound Catholic Doctrine.

But that old bugaboo, Free Will, enters the picture. You see, Adam and Eve weren’t snatched from God by the Serpent. They were tricked by the Serpent, but Adam and Eve freely chose to disobey God. They turned away from the Father on their own.

In the same we, we Christians, by sinning are not snatched away from God the Father. We are choosing the temptations of this world over the glories of the next world. We give our inheritance (as Children of God) back to the Father.
 
Also remember, “Eternal LIfe” is what? Eternal Life is the Grace that God bestows on us. God (Who is Life Eternal) actually dwells in our souls when we receive His Grace. This is the gift of Eternal Life that Jesus talks of. As long as we walk in His ways, and drink from the cup that He drinks of, we keep this Eternal Life.

But we can always give that Eternal Life back to God when we choose the temptations of this world of His Eternal Life.
 
smithmikeg said:
Jesus said:
“My sheep hear my voice;
I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.
The Father and I are one.”)(NAB)
Click to expand...
 
smithmikeg said:
Jesus said:
“My sheep hear my voice;
I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.
The Father and I are one.”)(NAB)

Forgive my Protestant upbringing. How does one reconcile the idea of mortal sin in light of this teaching?
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you’re asking. Do you mean how can one who is a believing Christian commit a mortal sin? If so, the answer would just be that they gave into temptation and committed a serious sin.

Or, are you asking how a Christian can separate himself from God through mortal sin, die in that state and go to hell – since this passage indicates they have eternal life from Jesus and can never be snatched out of the Father’s hand? If so, I’d say the answer lies in the phrase Jesus used “and they follow Me”. The promises are for those who hear His voice and follow Him. A person who commits mortal sin is not following Jesus and if he does not repent he continues in his refusal to hear and follow Jesus, for Jesus calls sinners to repentance. (If he repents, he again hears Jesus voice which instructed sinners to repent, and follows His instruction.)

Nita
 
Most of your responses sound similar to the apologia that I have used in the past. Any advice on talking to those who have trouble differentiating between being stolen and turning away(I am well aware that this verse refers to the former option)? I think that the parable of the prodigal son is very applicable here. Any other ideas?

This is a frequent discussion point between me and my Dad.

Thanks.
 
Dear smithmikeg,
I can see where a fundamentalist approach to this passage can be had by only taking the words in the sentences and not understanding the context they were written. If the sheep are to have eternal life how is it possible that something can happen to make this not true? The answer is suggested in Mat 12:29. Jesus is the strong man and no one, not even satan can come and bind Jesus to plunder the house (His Church). Those destined for salvation by God’s Grace cannot be taken away against their wills by satan.
NotWorthy has stated the free-will aspect of choosing Christ or not choosing Him. I only wanted to suggest the relation of John’s passage to Matthew’s. I hope this helps.
mdcpensive1
 
smithmikeg said:
Most of your responses sound similar to the apologia that I have used in the past. Any advice on talking to those who have trouble differentiating between being stolen and turning away(I am well aware that this verse refers to the former option)? I think that the parable of the prodigal son is very applicable here. Any other ideas?

This is a frequent discussion point between me and my Dad.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, just as Paul refers to us as Children of God, and heirs to the kingdom, the Prodigal was an heir and he squandered it.

Notice the parable from the same chapter of Luke (15) which is used in the same context as the Prodigal Son:
"What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it?
Click to expand...
The sheep was a part of the flock, and was lost, and then was found.
 
smithmikeg said:
Most of your responses sound similar to the apologia that I have used in the past. Any advice on talking to those who have trouble differentiating between being stolen and turning away

Thanks.
Click to expand...
The main difference between being stolen and turning away is that being stolen implies an action committed against the person’s will and involves a second party - a thief. The thief is the cause.

Turning away implies an action in conformity with the person’s will; they personally choose to do it. The person is the cause.

Now the question is how can a thief cause (or attempt to cause) one to leave Jesus, without the person’s consent.
I can think of two possibilities.
  1. Governments often imposed their religions on people. And that still goes on today. Jesus could be referring to the fact that even tho others may try to force one to submit to a different religion, forbid the outward practice of Christianity, yet they cannot force us to turn our minds and hearts away from Him. Even in such a dire situation as that, Jesus will remain with us and we can continue to follow Him. External oppression can not have control over our will (only we have that).
  2. A reassurance that here on earth and after death we need not fear the devil being able to overpower us - as long as we follow Jesus.
Jesus reassures us. We do not have to fear any who would try to focibly separate us from Him. He is stronger. Our protection against such enemies is to remain with Him.

Nita
 
Good thread, I appreciated reading the responses here.

I just had to add that I don’t think this is a Protestant - Catholic issue, but a balance issue. Consider these two thoughts:

It is God’s doing, God’s Grace, that saves me and keeps me.
  • true, God gets all the glory… But then why doesn’t he save everyone? or why do I have to obey and follow?
I need to accepts Christ’s gift, follow Him, and obeys Him.
  • true, I don’t think any church would dissagree with this… But then can I boast that I’ve done something to earn and keep my salvation?
I think we need to use our brains and logic, but sometimes when we see that God’s Word seems to support two truths that don’t seem to blend in our logic, we need to realize that God is bigger than our brains, and just trust Him like a child trusting their Father.
 
Let all the children come to me, for surely the kingdom of God is for them…

Amen, Churchunity.

Wow, I didn’t know it, but I pray for you every day!!!
 
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