John 10:29

[Greg3011]

John 10:29 states that “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”

This seems to indicate that man can not be led astray by evil doers or false prophets. Almost alluding to a “once saved, always saved” salvation.

I dont believe this is the case, as there is ample evidence that one’s salvation can be lost.

But, how do I reconcile this passage?
Is John speaking of the inablity for the already saved, and in heaven, souls that cannot be taken out of the Fathers hand?

P.S. I asked this question yesterday, and I cant find it in any of the forums, so I am reasking.

Thanks

 

[javier_29]

I’m sure somebody will give you a better answer but my understanding of this passage is that while no one can take them out of the Father’s hand because the Father is Almighty, it doesn’t mean that they can’t CHOOSE to leave which is where sin comes in.

God Bless
Javier

 

[mbauer111676]

These are my thoughts on your question. First of all, let’s keep things in context. Jesus is speaking with the Jews stating, you are not my sheep. Then he states why they are not his sheep, “My Sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” In our Lords comments I do not see our Lord saying that they are not his sheep because they were not chosen to be, but because they refuse to hear is voice and follow him. But those that do listen and follow him, He grants eternal life, that will not be snatched from them as was the case with Adam and Eve. I think this is perfectly summed up in our Lord’s prayer at the last supper (John 17). He states there, “They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent Me.” and also, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” See in the first quote that our Lord stated, “I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.” They, unlike the Jews Jesus was addressing, accepted what they heard as from the Father, and believed.

 

[Nita]

I’m sure somebody will give you a better answer but my understanding of this passage is that while no one can take them out of the Father’s hand because the Father is Almighty, it doesn’t mean that they can’t CHOOSE to leave which is where sin comes in.

God Bless
Javier

“no one can take them out of the Father’s hand”.

Two things:

1. “no one” is someone separate from “them” (the one/s in the Father’s hand). The passage definitely leaves open the possibility for them, the ones in the Father’s hand, to separate themselves.
2. “take them” implies force - that is, being taken (separated from God/loss of faith) against one’s will. Evil doers can tempt, even try to force - but they cannot make it happen. The believer can be separated from God only if he freely chooses to acquiesce to the evil temptation and abandon God’s way. Our body can be forced, but our will cannot.

Nita

 

[ryanoneil]

Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

Ver. 28. They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand. He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace. (Witham)

 

[mbauer111676]

Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition.

Ver. 28. They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand. He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace. (Witham)

This quote, though from a catholic source, can be misleading. All are Called, but not all Answer the call. For those that do answer, the gift that was by God’s Providence offered in mercy is given to them, who chose through grace final perseverance.

 

[Ignatius]

John 10:29 states that “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”

This seems to indicate that man can not be led astray by evil doers or false prophets. Almost alluding to a “once saved, always saved” salvation.

Taken alone and out of context, yes, you might be able to coerce that meaning from it. However, if you want to get the Truth from Holy Scripture you need to take the entire biblical context. What else does the Bible tell us that could lead us to understand that that wasn’t the correct understanding? Remember, all of these questions were asked by those who learned at the very feet of the Apostles. And they had the Apostles there to give them the correct understanding. Read the Early Christian writers to get a good sense of what the first Christians received from the Apostles.

 

[jcrichton]

John 10:29 states that “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”

This seems to indicate that man can not be led astray by evil doers or false prophets. Almost alluding to a “once saved, always saved” salvation.

I dont believe this is the case, as there is ample evidence that one’s salvation can be lost.

But, how do I reconcile this passage?
Is John speaking of the inablity for the already saved, and in heaven, souls that cannot be taken out of the Fathers hand?

Thanks

***Hi, Greg!

…you are correct not to trust the various interpretations out there… too many times the Scritpres are twisted and prodded to fit a preconceived ideology; at times, selective reading is used.

Here’s Paul’s rendering about his spiritual quest:

9 and be given a place in him, with the uprightness I have gained not from the Law, but through faith in Christ, an uprightness from God, based on faith,
10 that I may come to know him and the power of his resurrection, and partake of his sufferings by being moulded to the pattern of his death,
11 striving towards the goal of resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have secured it already, nor yet reached my goal,*** but I am still pursuing it in the attempt to take hold of the prize for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
13 Brothers, I do not reckon myself as having taken hold of it; I can only say that forgetting all that lies behind me, and straining forward to what lies in front,
14 I am racing towards the finishing-point to win the prize of God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus.
15 So this is the way in which all of us who are mature should be thinking, and if you are still thinking differently in any way, then God has yet to make this matter clear to you.
16 Meanwhile, let us go forward from the point we have each attained.
17 Brothers, be united in imitating me. Keep your eyes fixed on those who act according to the example you have from me.
18 For there are so many people of whom I have often warned you, and now I warn you again with tears in my eyes, who behave like the enemies of Christ’s cross.
19 They are destined to be lost; their god is the stomach; they glory in what they should think shameful, since their minds are set on earthly things.
20 But our homeland is in heaven and it is from there that we are expecting a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who will transfigure the wretched body of ours into the mould of his glorious body, through the working of the power which he has, even to bring all things under his mastery. (Filippians 3:9-21)

Here’s a fellow Christian… one that experienced his conversion throught a direct intervention of our Lord Christ Himself… he does not speak of his salvation as secured–Paul is not assured in his own salvation; rather his confidence is in Christ Jesus that can bring forth Salvation, if we abide in Him!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24**The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” **
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Remember the Jewish people there were looking for an earthly kingdom.

 

[JoeyWarren]

John 10:29 states that “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”

One has to look at the context within the Bible as a whole. In a nutshell, no one can take them out, but that no one does not include God and possibly oneself.

When you turn away from God, does God take you out of his hand or do you take yourself out of God’s hand?

---

Another view point: God owns every single person on the face of the earth and therefore by extension are all in God’s hand. The end result of how we react to that hand will be disclosed on the Day.

 

[John_Hiner]

John 10:29 states that “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”

This seems to indicate that man can not be led astray by evil doers or false prophets. Almost alluding to a “once saved, always saved” salvation.

I dont believe this is the case, as there is ample evidence that one’s salvation can be lost.

But, how do I reconcile this passage?
Is John speaking of the inablity for the already saved, and in heaven, souls that cannot be taken out of the Fathers hand?

P.S. I asked this question yesterday, and I cant find it in any of the forums, so I am reasking.

Thanks

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Another angle that might be helpful to consider is reflected in the words of Pope St. Pius X:

We speak, of course, of truth in itself - as for that other purely subjective truth, the fruit of sentiment and action, if it serves its purpose for the jugglery of words, it is of no use to the man who wants to know above all things whether outside himself there is a God into whose hands he is one day to fall. (Pope St. Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis, sec. 39.)

Many seem to fool themselves into thinking that they can remove themselves from “God’s hand.”

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[Pax]

Some believe that this verse demonstrates that a believer cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” This verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated. First of all this verse is part of the parable of the “Good Shepherd.” The theme of the sheep and the Shepherd is one that is used by Jesus many times and all of the references are related. An important example of these references is Luke 15:4-7 which says, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”

Clearly, this reference pertains to a member of Christ’s sheep fold, and the final verse indicates that the sheep that is restored is a reference to a sinner who repents. Obviously, if the sinner does not repent that sinner is not restored. James make a similar reference when he says, “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”[James 5:19-20].

Now let’s make the exegesis of John 10:27-29 even more concrete. Before doing this I need to lay just a little more ground work using Protestant doctrine. Protestant doctrine states that we are saved by faith “alone.” That is to say that we are saved by “belief alone.” We are told in John 2:1-11 in the narrative of the miracle at the marriage feast of Cana, that “This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.” We also read of Peter’s confession of faith in Matthew 16:16-17. We also know that the other apostles were present when this profession was made. They all apparently accepted Jesus as the Messiah and son of God. We also read in Matthew 10:7-8 that Jesus sent the twelve out in pairs to “preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons.” The twelve did as Jesus commanded and they worked the miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. Clearly, the twelve were “believers.”

Now, with that in mind let’s get back to John 10:27-29. This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-11 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.” It should be easily noticed that the language is virtually identical in meaning to John 10:27-29.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

The rub comes in when you move on to John 17:12 which says “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas believes at the marriage feast of Cana. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.

Once Judas betrayed, Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.

Both Peter and Judas were believers, both had cast out demons and healed the sick by way of the Holy Spirit, and both were given power to bind and loose. Moreover, both were under the protection of Jesus and were given to Jesus by the Father. Neither Peter nor Judas was snatched from the hand of Jesus or the Father. Peter denied Jesus and temporarily chose to leave that protection, but he freely repented with a godly grief, whereas Judas freely chose to betray Jesus and in his own weakness chose a worldly grief that lead to death.

I hope this helps explain the passage you were interested in.