John 10:30, I and My Father are One Why do Christians quote this verse?

[PluniaZ]

The Father may be said in some manner to be greater than the Son, if we consider the order of the divine processions, that is, that the Father is the first person, and proceeds from no other; whereas the Son proceeds from the Father. If any one, says St Chrysostom will contend, that the Father is greater, inasmuch as he is the cause, from which the Son proceedeth, we will bear with him, and this way of speaking: provided he grant that the Son is not of a different substance, or nature. St Athanasius allows the same, and takes notice, that though the Father is said to be greater, yet he is not said to be better, nor more excellent, than the Son; because they are one and the same in substance, nature, and other perfections.

Although a few Greek fathers said the Father is greater than the Son with respect to generation, the Council of Florence subsequently prohibited such language:

“And in this Trinity nothing is before or after, nothing is greater or less; but the whole three persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.”

“It also condemns any others who make degrees or inequalities in the Trinity.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

 

[gazelam]

That’s misleading.

Hardly…

You’re basing this belief on the writings of Joseph Smith, writings which contradict the truth that there’s “only” one God. There are not multiple gods above us. That’s LDS belief, and not orthodox.

There are multiple gods - but, of course, you have to believe the Bible to know this to be true.

Psalms 82:1 - God takes a stand in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.

Psalms 89:7 - Who in the skies ranks with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the sons of the gods?

Psalms 86:8 - None among the gods can equal you, O Lord; nor can their deeds compare to yours.

Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity devotes more than 30 pages to the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. It goes deep into the doctrine.
When dealing with the inner Life of God, at least some effort has to be expended if we want to pick up anything worthwhile.

It is well acknowledged among scholars that there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible.

The New Testament itself is far from any doctrine of the Trinity or of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature. (William J. Hill, The Three-Personed God (Washington DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1982), 27.)

There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 44

There is in them [the Apostolic Fathers], of course, no trinitarian doctrine and no awareness of a trinitarian problem. (JND Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, revised edition, (New York: Harper, 1978), 95.)

I hope this helps…

 

[PJM]

John 10:30, I and My Father are One

Why do Christians quote this verse?

By Sami Zaatari

Often when debates come up with Christians on the divinity of Christ, the passage from chapter ten in the book of John comes up; this passage is verse 30, which basically reads:

30 I and my Father are one

Now I don’t understand why many Christians would quote this verse, specifically Trinitarians, because what does this verse prove? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father, so why do they quote it? Are they quoting it to try and show that Jesus is equal to the Father? Well that isn’t true, since the Gospel of John shows the opposite, in fact if we quote one verse back we read:

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how to Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary? Now Christians have come up with a way of trying to explain this verse off, they say that Jesus was talking as a man here, that as a man the Father is greater than him, they try and say that the Father meant he is greater than Jesus in rank and authority and not in essence.

However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people, so therefore the Christian response will not work for John 10:29. It must be said though that the Christian response does not work for John chapter 14:28 neither, because the Christian argues from silence and is arguing something they have yet to prove. Christians cannot prove that Jesus has 2 natures, they can never get a single quote from the lips of Jesus saying I am man and Divine, that I have 2 natures and I gave one up and took on the man nature, this is non-existent, so therefore the response is from silence provided with no proof or a solid basis.

1-The fact is the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.

2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.

3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

For all these arguments the Christian will say as man Jesus is not all-knowing, as man Jesus receives things from the Father, however so I will kindly ask the Christian bring this proof from the words of Jesus, they shall never be able to do it, this doctrine is an invention and not something to be found from Jesus.

So therefore in conclusion, John 10:30 proves nothing in support of the divinity of Jesus, it does not show equality, since Jesus made it clear that the Father is greater than him, so therefore Jesus is not equal with the Father.

I Can’t and do not intend to answer here for others, but it’s relevance of what Protestants seem to miss or overlook:

The FACT that there is bit one TRUE God

HAS TO mean that there then is ONLY One TRUE set of faith beliefs, as even God can do noting more. Amen

Patrick.

 

[Fiasco]

Hardly…

There are multiple gods - but, of course, you have to believe the Bible to know this to be true.

The Church also believes the Bible, but without the teachings added by Joseph Smith.
Scripture uses he word “gods” for human beings in one or two places.
In the RSV Bible, Psalm 89:7 says “…among the holy ones” ie angels.
Parts of Scripture are metaphorical, so selectively quoting from the Psalms proves nothing.

It is well acknowledged among scholars that there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible.

Which scholars?
The doctrine of the Trinity isn’t explicitly stated in Scripture, but it’s implied when John baptises Our Lord, and at the very end of Matthew’s Gospel when Jesus says: “…baptising them in the name**[singular]** of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
In other places Our Lord mentions the Father and/or the Holy Spirit eg “the Spirit of Truth…He will lead you into all truth…” He’s been gradually leading the Church deeper into truth ever since.

The New Testament itself is far from any doctrine of the Trinity or of a triune God…

I hope this helps…

Anyone can quote from books, just as the JWs cite “Vine’s Expository Dictionary of NT Words” to “prove” that Our Lord was nailed to a stake, rather than to a cross.

We can throw Scripture verses at each other until Doomsday, but it’d be pointless. Anyone can (selectively) quote from the Bible to prove just about anything he wants. That’s why there are more than 40,000 denominations, sects and cults, each claiming to be Bible-based.** Even Satan can quote Scripture,** as he did after Our Lord’s 40 days in the wilderness.
The Church rests on three pillars: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium (teaching authority)
She can trace her history right back to the time of the Apostles, claim of general apostasy notwithstanding, complete with a 1700-year loss of priesthood.

Galatians 1:6-9 is appropriate, and it’s no good citing Revelation 14:6. The founders of other groups have used that same verse, eg Felix Manalo.
God doesn’t give us certain revelations in one period of history, and give us totally alien and contradictory revelations 1800 years later. Either you believe LDS teachings and reject the New Testament, or you believe the New Testament and reject LDS teachings. Without distorting the NT into something unrecognisable, the two are incompatible, so you can’t have both.

God creates Man in His image and likeness. Far too often, the founders of other religions conceive of God in Man’s image and likeness.

Off topic, and too long, but for TruthKnight’s sake your second post had to be answered.
Have to get back to TruthKnight later.

 

[PJM]

OK

So your position is that GOD CAN redefine His TRUTH as not being singular per defined issue:shrug:

How does that work exactly my friend?

GBY

Patrick